Post Patch Strategy Changes

[biohazard72]

Just making a post for people to document their strategy changes with the new patch, or general comments.

1. Culture for all. Having Tradition and Legalism as social policies allows many non-cultural civs to pick up some early social policies, including the very powerful Landed Elite. A very welcome change.

2. On the note of social policy changes, Meritocracy is nuts. I'm seeing some wonders go far earlier than I'm accustomed to and I think this is why.

3. REXing is back. There are significantly less city locations available now so getting there earlier is more important. Going vertical with National College will cost you some city-sites, which will cost you tech progression later on in the game, especially around the time Universities would have gone up. I grab through Landed Elite for non-France (use the small extra amount of food for Settler production boost), Tradition-Liberty-Collective Rule for France (who later can grab Legalism and Landed Elite).

I would suggest going for broke in first-wave settlement while making first builds in cities military units or Workers.

BTW, REXing and building science buildings starts slower than Deity AIs, but once Universities go up, you clear all the techs you've been avoiding instantaneously (1 turn each) to catch up.

4. Monuments? They're far better now since culturally-acquired tiles make up a lot of your borders.

5. Running an economy is harder. I used to use Fish a lot to keep it positive for longer, but no more. Markets feel necessary after Universities to offset their cost.

And that is what I've noticed.

 

[Martin Alvito]

1. Culture for all. Having Tradition and Legalism as social policies allows many non-cultural civs to pick up some early social policies, including the very powerful Landed Elite. A very welcome change.

The one catch here is that doing this markedly increases future SP costs. This hurts when you get to the Renaissance. Secularism is so good that delaying it, even for 2 per city, may not be a great idea.

I'm still sorting through the implications at this point.

2. On the note of social policy changes, Meritocracy is nuts. I'm seeing some wonders go far earlier than I'm accustomed to and I think this is why.

It's pretty imba.

3. REXing is back. There are significantly less city locations available now so getting there earlier is more important. Going vertical with National College will cost you some city-sites, which will cost you tech progression later on in the game, especially around the time Universities would have gone up. I grab through Landed Elite for non-France (use the small extra amount of food for Settler production boost), Tradition-Liberty-Collective Rule for France (who later can grab Legalism and Landed Elite).

I'm finding that the Tradition-Liberty-Collective Rule pathway is pretty solid for the NC first approach, regardless of who it is. You hit a Culture ruin in the first ten turns in the vast majority of games, and you can always audible to a Monument if you don't.

Grabbing Legalism is admittedly nice for border pops.

I would suggest going for broke in first-wave settlement while making first builds in cities military units or Workers.

This depends on the map. If you're in the center, your hand is forced. If not, you can usually wall off some territory and fill in that area after Colosseums start going in.

BTW, REXing and building science buildings starts slower than Deity AIs, but once Universities go up, you clear all the techs you've been avoiding instantaneously (1 turn each) to catch up.

While this is true, you delay when the Universities start to go in by REXing. That's the real cost.

5. Running an economy is harder. I used to use Fish a lot to keep it positive for longer, but no more. Markets feel necessary after Universities to offset their cost.

Pretty much. Either you can build an Observatory in the city, or you're going Market.

Testing suggests that Cathy is a lot better than people think she is. You usually start on an edge, stuff goes up faster, the Granary resources tend to be where she spawns, and she gets a lot of bonus cash from reselling strategic resources early on.

 

[joncnunn]

One caution note on Legalism. It can only grant a cultural building if you have the tech for one you haven't already built.

So if you end up building a Monument early, it's better to wait for the tech for Temple before choosing Legalism. In the mean time while waiting for that tech there's plenty of nice policies on the Liberty branch.

Also the road connection city state quest now works, and is very much worth going for (appears to be worth about 50 influence points). The state will now build the portion of the road inside it's own border as well so you won't have to worry about traffic jams.

Also noting that the states like to build (or buy) harbors. This can result in if you start the road from the state and run towards the capital of your outer cities getting trade connections before the quest completes thanks to that city state's harbor.

There's also a lot more buildings worth building post patch. Stables are really nice now; even if just one such tile is within the cities borders, it brings the city back up to pre-patch production. And if there's multiple of these, so much the better.


On Rexing; the main limit on this (as always) is happiness. And the draw back if done pre National College is a major delay building the NC unless you have enough cash to buy the library. Production in newly built cities (that aren't the capital) is truly horrid post patch.

 

[Tabarnak]

On Rexing; the main limit on this (as always) is happiness. And the draw back if done pre National College is a major delay building the NC unless you have enough cash to buy the library. Production in newly built cities (that aren't the capital) is truly horrid post patch.

Yeah i wondered about this question yesterday. Since i play much multiplayer, NC first is often a no-no. But what to do then? Well Landed Elite is awesome if i beeline it. It can take only 5 turns on quick speed to run a newly 3 pop city. Work 2 mines ASAP and your library can be built in no time.

Landed elite brings a lot of production. Settling near horses, beelining construction and/or playing Egypt and get these burial tomb right of the bat can be good solutions.

But i have a question about Egypt. Can we get burial tombs for free with Legalism? I don't remember which tech is needed. Philo i think? I don't have the game with me right now.

These tombs are already free tho. But if i have 4 cities, it's 8 happiness instantly. Any thoughts?

 

[joncnunn]

I only play SP. So yeah, things that didn't work in MP pre-patch, probably still don't work.

As to Egypt, yes; they can get a burial tomb; playing them right now. But just like the Temple, the only way they'll get it for free from Legalism is to both have a Monument AND already have the Philo tech when they choose the Legalism policy.

Yeah i wondered about this question yesterday. Since i play much multiplayer, NC first is often a no-no. But what to do then? Well Landed Elite is awesome if i beeline it. It can take only 5 turns on quick speed to run a newly 3 pop city. Work 2 mines ASAP and your library can be built in no time.

Landed elite brings a lot of production. Settling near horses, beelining construction and/or playing Egypt and get these burial tomb right of the bat can be good solutions.

But i have a question about Egypt. Can we get burial tombs for free with Legalism? I don't remember which tech is needed. Philo i think? I don't have the game with me right now.

These tombs are already free tho. But if i have 4 cities, it's 8 happiness instantly. Any thoughts?

 

[Tabarnak]

I only play SP. So yeah, things that didn't work in MP pre-patch, probably still don't work.

As to Egypt, yes; they can get a burial tomb; playing them right now. But just like the Temple, the only way they'll get it for free from Legalism is to both have a Monument AND already have the Philo tech when they choose the Legalism policy.

When i said ''already free'' about burial tombs it was about their no maintenance cost. But delaying Legalism mean delaying Landed Elite. For temples over monuments, assuming i have 4 cities, i rather play Egypt for 8 instant happiness or Askia for extra culture. All this for no maintenance at all!

For other civs, i don't see the point to get a big 8 maintenance cost for just a little more culture. I prefer Landed Elite very fast, don't bother about monuments and build something else.

 

[Fluxx]

When i said ''already free'' about burial tombs it was about their no maintenance cost. But delaying Legalism mean delaying Landed Elite. For temples over monuments, assuming i have 4 cities, i rather play Egypt for 8 instant happiness or Askia for extra culture. All this for no maintenance at all!

For other civs, i don't see the point to get a big 8 maintenance cost for just a little more culture. I prefer Landed Elite very fast, don't bother about monuments and build something else.

sell the temples.

 

[joncnunn]

It's not a "little" more culture; unless you already have a cultural CS as a friend or ally; Legalism granting even 1 Temple + 1 Monument will greatly reduce the time to the nice policy.
At 4 Temples; you'll fly thru the next few policies.

 

[Haig]

sell the temples.

Whoah, I had actually totally forgot about being able to sell buildings, nice.

 

[Tabarnak]

It's not a "little" more culture; unless you already have a cultural CS as a friend or ally; Legalism granting even 1 Temple + 1 Monument will greatly reduce the time to the nice policy.
At 4 Temples; you'll fly thru the next few policies.

Delaying Legalism means delaying Landed Elite. I still think getting Landed Elite at your 3rd policy is superior instead of trying to get Temples from Legalism later. Temples are 2 maintenance cost each and it's a lot. Production will always win, and Landed Elite gives you that very soon. If i need temples, well i prefer to build them myself.

4 cities-->Landed Elite--->NC is awesome. You will find yourself building coliseums and markets very fast and make a lot of money later on (Circus Maximus and National Treasury are a fantastic combo) getting big cities very fast, making profits with trade routes very soon, having the possibility to rush buy units/buildings and/or ally with cultural CS, and making a lot of science when 4 universities are planted with 10+ pop cities running scientists and still growing.

That's what i call productivity. Remember, policies will always be candies at first stand. But Landed Elite is not in this category.

4 temples is only +12 culture. Not enough for my style of play.

 

[Bibor]

Guys, try a 3-city (or 2-city small map) strategy, with cities 4-5 tiles apart. Its insane.

 

[Sneaks]

Has anyone else noticed MASSIVE populations in AI cities post-patch? Babs was blowing by everyone in the game with 5 cities, the largest of which was its size 32 capital (by turn 200), followed by sizes 24, 22, and 19 cities. It seems the city spacing difference plus tradition has caused an absolute boom in population growth

 

[magnus333]

In my recent American game I had 5 cities on turn 386 or so, size 55, 40, 35, 33 and 33.
I was a little behind on tech vs other civs with 15+ cities, but I was holding my own and cranking out end game units in 4 turns.

Tell empires can be very powerful now.

 

[Sneaks]

Size 55??? Were you playing on Marathon by any chance?

 

[Buccaneer]

Guys, try a 3-city (or 2-city small map) strategy, with cities 4-5 tiles apart. Its insane.

That's the only way I have ever played Civ5. Too stubborn I guess, but it is a good strategy.

 

[magnus333]

Size 55??? Were you playing on Marathon by any chance?

Nope. Standard speed, standard size map. I focused on growth any way I could and got a great grassland/river start.

 

[apotheoser]

Has anyone else noticed MASSIVE populations in AI cities post-patch? Babs was blowing by everyone in the game with 5 cities, the largest of which was its size 32 capital (by turn 200), followed by sizes 24, 22, and 19 cities. It seems the city spacing difference plus tradition has caused an absolute boom in population growth

Aqueduct early in the game is a huge change too. Before, cities just didn't have time to grow in size. Now they have hundreds of turns to grow at drastically increased rates, plus the new changes in things like Granary and the civics.

 

[biohazard72]

BTW, REXing and building science buildings starts slower than Deity AIs, but once Universities go up, you clear all the techs you've been avoiding instantaneously (1 turn each) to catch up.

While this is true, you delay when the Universities start to go in by REXing. That's the real cost.

I don't see how. Sure, you get the tech 5-10 turns later, but a couple of your cities get Libraries done much faster if you REX, because they have existed for longer and are not all building Workers (these are the two things I build until I get Construction for Colosseums). So I don't consider that a strike against REXing. If anything, REXing gets Universities done faster on average because of that fact, because getting a city down with a Colosseum and Library after NC start is inherently slower than getting a city down with those that has existed for 10-20 turns longer (except those that build Workers first).

Completely off-topic: city locations are more important with a 0 gold and 1 production city center. Hill cities now get +1 production on their city tile, and settling on resources adds their gold to the city center. Quite cool.

 

[Chibiabos]

Completely off-topic: city locations are more important with a 0 gold and 1 production city center. Hill cities now get +1 production on their city tile, and settling on resources adds their gold to the city center. Quite cool.

A city not built on a hill will have higher hammer capacity than one built on a hill, because by building on flatland, you can build a windmill for +2 H AND +15% H when building buildings, and you can mine the hill you did not build the city on to get that hammer (and an extra hammer at Chemistry).

If you get a hammer for building a city on a hill, do you get an extra hammer at Chemistry as mines do?

 

[awa81]

That's the only way I have ever played Civ5. Too stubborn I guess, but it is a good strategy.

Do you take puppets from other civs? Or do you only play with 3 citys and never go to war?