Praetorian Poll

[Iranon]

Only in the most literal interpretation, which isn't terribly useful. With Rome, I still build less Macemen than Praetorians during the time both are available because I'm cheap.
Naturally, I have no first-hand experience with hypothetical Macemen clones as a Swordsman UU... there would probably be issues, but facing twice the numbers in Axemen is unlikely to be a cakewalk either.

 

[Yoshiegg737]

Praetorian's steamrolled over my 3-man team during a multiplayer game.

Survived the Immortal/Horse Archer/Catapult rush, but nothing survives Praetorians

Fun game, though

 

[obsolete]

but nothing survives Praetorians

It is theoretically possible that pratorians just pushed a win past the edge of balance, but I am more inclinded to think it was failure on your team. Of course pratorian whining is always an excuse when no other is available...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It is theoretically possible that pratorians just pushed a win past the edge of balance, but I am more inclinded to think it was failure on your team. Of course pratorian whining is always an excuse when no other is available...

And here I thought people usually used lag or double-moving as the excuse...

How is it that prats are beating siege, yoshiegg? I'm more scared of guerrilla II longbows on hilly terrain choking/forking me (it costs a LOT of resources to dislodge that) than I am of prats, and that's saying a lot.

 

[Yoshiegg737]

And here I thought people usually used lag or double-moving as the excuse...

How is it that prats are beating siege, yoshiegg? I'm more scared of guerrilla II longbows on hilly terrain choking/forking me (it costs a LOT of resources to dislodge that) than I am of prats, and that's saying a lot.

Hmm...
It was an inland sea map, 3 vs 3, and I was one of the 2 civ's on my team who had to fight units. Rome was the civ that the second person on my team had to deal with and he made a stack of Praetorians while my teammate was building...something...I forgot. I think they were axemen and catapults.

Anyway, I was busy fighting a double stack from the civ I was facing and another stack from their support civilization. While I was busy doing that, the Praetorians took down my teammate, then our support civilization.

Obsolete could be right, it may have been the fault of my team. Thinking back on that now, I could have beaten the Praetorians if my army wasen't so badly damaged from fighting 2 other civ's.

Would have lost the game anyway since it was 3 to 1

 

[Mosher]

I just like voting in polls.

 

[pi-r8]

Praetorians get +33% base strength, lose a situational 10% modifier and cost 12.5% more.

Skirmishers get +33% base strength and a free first strike chance, no drawbacks.

War Chariots get +25% base strength and first strike immunity, no drawbacks.


All of these are very good UUs, but Praetorians are hardly in a class of their own... in fact if you're counting beans the value over base seems the least of these.

one advantage that praets have over those units is that you can 2-pop whip them, which significantly increases your production. Also, by having an army of fewer but more powerful units, you'll save on maintenence costs, and the praets are more likely to win their first battle and gain promotions. That's especially true for aggressive praetorians.

 

[danjuno]

I don't think Praetorians as too overpowered. Axes with a defensive bonus or plenty of promotions can take care of them.

 

[babar]

Outside of hammer/strength questions, praets don't die very much. That's got to count for something economically.

 

[gunkulator]

I don't think Praetorians as too overpowered. Axes with a defensive bonus or plenty of promotions can take care of them.

Shock is hard to come by early in the game unless you're AGR. A defending axe is your only hope of beating them and even then it's not a sure thing. A defending Praet will normally beat an axe and definitely will if the Praet gets any defensive bonus. That means a stack of Praets can pillage with impunity as well as their usual steamroll conquering.

Rome as a neighbor means either take them out early or stockpile axes in your border cities which in turn means fewer attackers for ancient age conquest.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Shock is hard to come by early in the game unless you're AGR. A defending axe is your only hope of beating them and even then it's not a sure thing. A defending Praet will normally beat an axe and definitely will if the Praet gets any defensive bonus. That means a stack of Praets can pillage with impunity as well as their usual steamroll conquering.

Rome as a neighbor means either take them out early or stockpile axes in your border cities which in turn means fewer attackers for ancient age conquest.

I thought we cleared up this ignorance a few pages ago.

You only get to pillage with "impunity" and capture cities/beat axes "usually" because you're playing an incompetent opponent: the AI.

Anyone who sinks roughly equal into axes as the roman sinks into prats can and will consistently slaughter the prat invasion. Top tier/uber UU can do more than kind of sort of pillage their opponents effectively, however prats fail miserably and instantly when they try to attack axes in cities.

As mentioned before, prats are dominated by siege+ anything if they get stuck in enemy teritory. Prats just aren't good enough for cost to defeat even regular non-AGG axes consistently?

 

[pi-r8]

Anyone who sinks roughly equal into axes as the roman sinks into prats can and will consistently slaughter the prat invasion. Top tier/uber UU can do more than kind of sort of pillage their opponents effectively, however prats fail miserably and instantly when they try to attack axes in cities.

As mentioned before, prats are dominated by siege+ anything if they get stuck in enemy teritory. Prats just aren't good enough for cost to defeat even regular non-AGG axes consistently?

Praets need to be aggressive to be really deadly. An aggressive praet with shock will have winning odds over most axemen, even fortified in cities.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Praets need to be aggressive to be really deadly. An aggressive praet with shock will have winning odds over most axemen, even fortified in cities.

It's not like I don't agree (the promo advantage is nasty, esp vs non-AGG), but that isn't standard-rules .

 

[Wrath_Zt]

Praetorian is a top UU in MP and SP. And that's not to say they can't be countered or that the Roman player will win all and every classical war. In fact, they can be countered even by a not so skilled player - agg. Axes gives them a hard time. Also, you can mathematically prove that their cost-benefit isn't going to worth their while if facing someone who knows how to defend from them (which does not include the stupid AI). Still, depending on the level you play on, sometimes a pret rush just won't be effective - http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=403820 - but that's because of the AI bonuses that tend to inutilize some units (like knights/guilds) and value other (like Cavalry/MT).

However, if you know how to use them instead of wasting them into a wall-hill-city full of toku's axes they'll honor their reputation. I agree that sometimes they are overrated, but to neglect that strenght 8 does matter seems to me a need to be controversial and to look like a "skilled player who does not value such a noobish unit like pret". And, well, that's just STUPID.

EDIT: and btw, even on MP, I, personally, prefer the Skirmisher! =D

 

[kettler1]

In some situations it's gamebreaking. In 18 civ on epic speed I conquered all the way from Scotland to Japan using primarily praetorians, then catapults. That's 14 conquered civs! Simply put, nothing can stand up to a properly upgraded praetor and catapults. Considering how soon you get iron, you're damn near invincible for half the game.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^^ THREAD NECRO!!! Praets have long been proven to be great but not the best.

 

[bhavv]

I think this thread existed before we learned how to bulb machinery.

Throw your praets at my Pro Xbows all day long plz.

Or send your chariots / horse archers into romes borders and pillage pillage pillage. Get rid of their metal access, unless they have a city built on an iron which is rare.