Praets At Deity at Normal Speed

[TheMeInTeam]

In this particular case, it's not French, but rather an abuse of Cajun.




Do we really need many more than that? People stopped denigrating the SSE approach at about that number (key differences: published demonstrations, and also a few warmup games I'm not counting because they were at lower levels).

The reporting on Deity Praet 2 is a bit thin to satisfy here. In fairness, maybe it's not that kind of thread.

If I ran the zoo (which in this case, I don't - I'm an interested spectator, but MarigoldRan was correct when pointing out that this isn't my fight), then we'd either be seeing a walkthru, or lots of reporting of different attempts and ideas as we saw in Ironman.

SSE had a very powerful player who knew his game and was willing to demonstrate it in detail carry the torch. If someone does that with prats on deity/normal while knowing something I/we don't, then i'm willing to read up/listen.

Using nonsense about anything with the word "marathon" in it as an attempt to translate that to a different speed, however, isn't workable. Marathon is fine to play and enjoy, but one absolutely CAN NOT assert the same things that are good in marathon are therefore good in normal...at least w/o looking pretty bad.

 

[ShengWuLien]

Many thanks for the links to the Attacko threads. Haven't laughed that much in a long time.

I think if TroytheFace were here he would point out that at Deity level Praets are best used in a strictly defensive capacity, thus freeing up archers and warriors for a lethal rush attack.

 

[MarigoldRan]

SSE had a very powerful player who knew his game and was willing to demonstrate it in detail carry the torch. If someone does that with prats on deity/normal while knowing something I/we don't, then i'm willing to read up/listen.

Using nonsense about anything with the word "marathon" in it as an attempt to translate that to a different speed, however, isn't workable. Marathon is fine to play and enjoy, but one absolutely CAN NOT assert the same things that are good in marathon are therefore good in normal...at least w/o looking pretty bad.

Most things in Marathon ARE good in Normal. It's still basically the same game. For example, you want to improve the important tiles, trade techs, and don't over-expand.

Some things are better at Marathon and some things are better at Normal. IMP for example is significantly stronger on smaller maps where rushing out cities early is important. Praets, for example, are significantly STRONGER on Marathon/Huge due to the longer time spans.

Obsolete's argument as is usual is EXCLUSIVELY about one map size and speed. In fact, most theory is EXCLUSIVELY about one map size and speed. From my perspective his arguments, when persuasive (not 100% of the time), are persuasive ONLY within the restricted framework for his game-play. In other words, ONLY for normal/standard.

Furthermore, it also means his experience, which is strictly limited to ONE SETTING, applies only TO ONE SETTING. Which means his statements have some credibility primarily for that ONE SETTING. Get my drift?

These threads have been directed primarily against talks about praets being a "noob" unit. I think this is a silly concept. There is no such thing as a "noob" unit. Units can be used like a noob, but a unit is a unit is a unit.

Since praets are STR 8 and 45 hammers, they are objectively, quite strong.

 

[Archbob]

Most things in Marathon ARE good in Normal. It's still basically the same game. For example, you want to improve the important tiles, trade techs, and don't over-expand.

Some things are better at Marathon and some things are better at Normal. IMP for example is significantly stronger on smaller maps where rushing out cities early is important. Praets, for example, are significantly STRONGER on Marathon/Huge due to the longer time spans.

Obsolete's argument as is usual is EXCLUSIVELY about one map size and speed. In fact, most theory is EXCLUSIVELY about one map size and speed. From my perspective his arguments, when persuasive (not too often), are persuasive ONLY within the restricted framework for his game-play. In other words, ONLY for normal/standard.

Furthermore, it also means his experience, which is strictly limited to ONE SETTING, applies only TO ONE SETTING. Which means his statements have some credibility only for that ONE SETTING. Get my drift?

These threads have been directed primarily against talks about praets being a "noob" unit. I think this is a silly concept. There is no such thing as a "noob" unit. Units can be used like a noob, but a unit is a unit is a unit.

Since praets are STR 8 and 45 hammers, they are objectively, quite strong.

No, Marathon and Normal are extremely different in terms of conquest. Marathon games have more turns and take longer to research and build but units still move across the map at the same pace as normal. You have a lot more time to pull a rush off on Marathon. Playing on Marathon does make the game easier. Marathon diety is noticably easier than Quick Diety by several levels. I've played many games on both Normal and Epic and Epic is noticably easier to win, especially if your trying to rush. I've tried a few on Marathon and its a bit below Epic in terms of difficulty. More turns is just so obviously better for the human player.

Rush units such as Praets, Immortals, War Chariots, and even Quenchas aren't nearly as effective on normal as they are on marathon. Regardless of which victory condition I'm going for, Marathon is easier for me to win than normal.

Obsolete seems to have played many map types and settings. He generally sticks to normal speed but here's the thing. Things that work on a faster game speed will almost always work on a slower game speed, but its not true the other way around. Rushing for instance, doesn't work nearly as well on normal.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Marathon, or Marathon/Huge?

When I say Marathon, I always mean Marathon/Huge unless I say otherwise.

 

[Archbob]

Marathon, or Marathon/Huge?

When I say Marathon, I always mean Marathon/Huge unless I say otherwise.

I used to play exclusively on huge until I went back to normal sized maps. Outside of the fact that you need to settle a few more cities on huge(8 as opposed to 6 so you can get national wonders), the overall strategy does not change much. It does hinder you a bit if you are rushing but the switch from normal map to huge map isn't nearly as big as the switch from normal to marathon speed.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, the thread IS about normal speed, not mara. Even if you play on huge, prats still aren't very impressive on normal speed. Actually they'd probably be worse on huge/normal than standard/normal.

 

[noto2]

Hey, hey...what's all this talk about praets being OP or being crap? Honestly...how can they be crap? They aren't necessarily OP but they certainly aren't crap. Think of swords. How does one use swords? I see swordsmen having 2 main uses:
1) to rush. Basically when your neighbour does not have metal hooked up, so they do not have axes, swords can totally rape archers. You can achieve this through sheer luck, or by choking your neighbour and blocking off access to metals. Then you march in your swords and even walls don't help archers all that much against them
2) as general purpose offensive units in a well-balanced classic age stack. You have a stack of axes, spears, and catapults and are waging a classic age war. Once you sacrifice 1-3 catapults to do collateral, anything can mop up. If all you faced were axes then axes would be the better unit, but swords are better vs. everything else. So if you have access to swords it often makes sense to attack with them, even vs. axes. A CR sword vs a C1 axe doesn't fair too poorly, especially when you compare it to a CR axe going up against a CG archer.

Now, can praets do what swords do only better? Hell yes. You can rush them and attack your neighbour and pillage his one copper mine ASAP so you only face 2 axes during the whole war. Archers/chariots/HAs die to them, guaranteed.
What about a classic age attack with catapults? Umm...yes, praets totally rape enemy cities with catapult support.

Does this attack get stopped by longbows/xbows? Sort of. But so would any classic age army. Honestly though, if your opponent has longbows and doesn't yet have engineering, your praets can still perform. If you're in the middle of a war with someone and they suddenly pop longbows, after you've already taken a few cities, it's not like the longbows are going to save them. With catapults bombarding and doing a little bit of collateral, praets will still take out the longbows.
Thus, overall, they certainly are a decent UU. They suffer the same problem as regular swords - that you have to get IW and iron to deploy them, but they do what regular swords do and do it much better, and they can even fight longbows before engineering, something that swords usually cannot do

 

[TheWilltoAct]

Bleh swords are terrible, for all the reasons you've described; and modestly useful in the niche cases you've enumerated.

For my own benefit, I will attempt a brief recap of Praetorian Rush limitations.

Praetorians belong in a class of their own, with unique expense and rare metal dependancy (Iron Working will often be a waste of if no iron ends up revealing). A chariot rush would be feasible earlier, while horse archers are compelling for their mobility, first strike immunity, and withdrawal chance. With a good start a Praetorian rush can gain some territory but will likely delay further conquest until catapults.

 

[obsolete]

When a UU, blocks you from getting a superior UU like Red-Coats or Cossacks, etc. then I can see the argument that it is crap.

Or do you prefer to call the LandCrap not a crap unit, because the LandCrap is better than the default unit it replaces, therefore it is a GOOD UU?

You can't have your pie and eat it too.

 

[Archbob]

Come on Obsolete, Prats aren't a crap unit. They are superior to swords and can help you take a few extra cities early. They are pretty good, but not the best UU in the game.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

Praetorians are crap IF they don't suit your playstyle; if war during this era isn't your thing the Praet loses some value, though they still make able defenders.

Or if you don't want to bother with the whole alternate research path / hope for Iron thing.

 

[Archbob]

Praetorians are crap IF they don't suit your playstyle; if war during this era isn't your thing the Praet loses some value, though they still make able defenders.

Or if you don't want to bother with the whole alternate research path / hope for Iron thing.

I've almost always been able to find iron but against come aggro civs, the Prat just isn't that good against their shock axes so it stops the rush.

 

[noto2]

I think iron is actually one of the game's most common resources, is it not? I'm not about to go script diving but just from experience I find iron to be more prentiful than either copper or horses. I've found it far more common for me to be playing Carthage or Persia and have no horses than playing as Rome and having no iron.

 

[obsolete]

You are biasing yourself, because horses come so much sooner, you don't have that much time to EXPAND out towards the horses than you would do with Ironworking which comes much later.

 

[Archbob]

Iron, copper, and horses come at about the same rate for me actually.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You are biasing yourself, because horses come so much sooner, you don't have that much time to EXPAND out towards the horses than you would do with Ironworking which comes much later.

To be fair, this is mostly a reality due to AI behavior and the functionality of tech trades.

If every AI beelined alpha + aesthetics and ignored IW at first, IW would be earlier than HBR for most players...probably one of the earlier techs overall.

With tech trades off or against non-AI opposition things can change a bit.

Even so, 1 move units that are countered pretty effectively by a unit that comes well before they are available does not make for an ideal UU. They are, IMO, only OK as a unique. Would-be prat spam users need to luck into actually having iron in time to use them and rely on opponents not getting walls + axes, or else they simply become expensive post-catapult clean-up units that don't perform the role of protecting siege anywhere near as well as elephants...though elephants are a garbage unit in terms of balance anyway .

 

[noto2]

TMIT do you play dota? Your name is familiar....

 

[TheWilltoAct]

I think iron is actually one of the game's most common resources, is it not? I'm not about to go script diving but just from experience I find iron to be more prentiful than either copper or horses. I've found it far more common for me to be playing Carthage or Persia and have no horses than playing as Rome and having no iron.

Sure, it is more common than Uranium or the luxury metals, but that doesn't mean the RNG will put it down in your land. It's a risk. Maybe in your experience Iron is frequently near the starting area, while in mine it's far more rare. Personal experience doesn't account for much when dealing with the random factor, although I certainly agree that on average the map will have a proportionate amount of Iron.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

TMIT do you play dota? Your name is familiar....

I used to play it a lot, but mostly TDA or pub levels (pub was nonsensically easy, and TDA only marginally harder). Probably never reached my potential there. I have a dota2 beta key courtesy of one of my awesome subscribers, and have been trying to get it working properly.

I was never so good that you'd recognize me from there though...especially since I didn't go by TMIT back then.

I loved nerubian assassin, lich, KOTL (trolololol farm), zeus, and could do most tank heroes well.