Praets At Deity at Normal Speed

[MarigoldRan]

The reasons I put Praets so high, even on standard settings are these:

1. They provide an OPPORTUNITY to rush if it presents itself (early gold is definitely an indicator).

2. Even if you don't rush, they remain a very useful unit to get to PROTECT yourself. Most players will get a stack of axes or something along those lines for defense. If you are the Romans, you can get Praets, which are better.

3. Praets have extended longevity. They last throughout the middle ages, and they work VERY well with cannons.

Very few other UUs can boast this. The Keshik might be a more versatile rusher, but it's worse on defense, and it becomes obsolete once LBs come up. Upgrading them is expensive. They're also very fragile, and though HBR is better trade bait, it does cost more to research. And they're more expensive.

The Cho-Ko-Nu is an excellent unit, but once again, you need Machinery, not IW, and it's more expensive. And you have to play with PRO instead of IMP, and I prefer IMP.

At Deity, the only early combat unit I'd compare favorably against the praet is the Numidian. It hits about just as strongly, and it's fast. And Hannibal is CHA. The combination of these traits makes it killer. It's like a HA rush on steroids.

EDIT: Oh yes, also the Quechua. Perhaps the fast worker too.

 

[Mylene]

Augustus is a strong leader, i think Darius is overrated for normal speed.
He has 2 traits to save the economy, but iam no fan of it.

 

[Abegweit]

cher? Is that a french word? Merriam-webster gives me nothing as result.

Yes, it is. I'm guessing that, since you're from Quebec, you're trying too hard. It shoulda been mon cher. Both dear and my dear work in English but only the latter is proper French. IOW, it's a bad translation from English. Give him credit. He often tries to introduce foreign words and phrases. I personally find it a laudable exercise even he occasionally gets the details wrong.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Consider:

1. The Incan UU, and it's extremely early rush capabilities, make the Incans effectively: FIN, IND, and IMP without the GG bonus.

2. The Indian UU, with its 50% improved speed make Asoka effectively: SPI ORG and EXP without the fast granary bonus.

3. The Roman UU, with its longevity and STR 8 praets make Julius effectively ORG IMP and AGG without the fast barracks and stable bonus.

All three are top tier units because it adds another dimension to their play-style. Playing them is like playing with the better half of a third trait thanks to the UU. There are very few other UUs that can boast this.

EDIT: This HAS been my argument all along. I talked about the praet rush aspect of it at the beginning as a sort of introduction. Unfortunately I never got much further than that because of fun and malice.

EDIT 2: Which part of the statements above do people NOT agree with? I believe this is a pretty strong and reasonably air-tight argument. Anyone care to disagree? If so, please state your reasons in a clear and concise manner, as I have done above.

 

[Archbob]

I'd still rate Immortals above Praets in terms of UU. The movement speed is just too much of a killer and they are cheaper and the withdrawl upgrade really puts it over the top. Immortals generally are useful to me until Feudalism. If your attacking cities, chances are its most likely going to be defended by mostly archers, in which case the immortal is just as strong as the Praet with 100% bonus against archers. They can even fare decently against LB's.

ORG/IMP/AGG is still a crappier combo than the first two you have listed there.

 

[MarigoldRan]

I'd still rate Immortals above Praets in terms of UU. The movement speed is just too much of a killer and they are cheaper and the withdrawl upgrade really puts it over the top. Immortals generally are useful to me until Feudalism.

ORG/IMP/AGG is still a crappier combo than the first two you have listed there.

I don't know. ORG is very good. IMP is also starting to look better and better the more I play standard maps. And AGG- I like war and it can save your butt from some unpleasant situations.

And once again, exactly how many other UUs add the better part of a THIRD trait to your existing two traits?

 

[MarigoldRan]

Yes, it is. I'm guessing that, since you're from Quebec, you're trying too hard. It shoulda been mon cher. Both dear and my dear work in English but only the latter is proper French. IOW, it's a bad translation from English. Give him credit. He often tries to introduce foreign words and phrases. I personally find it a laudable exercise even he occasionally gets the details wrong.

Ok. He gets credit. I'm pretty sure he speaks French better than I do.

 

[Abegweit]

Ok. He gets credit. I'm pretty sure he speaks French better than I do.

And plays better CIV than either of us. Way better.

 

[vranasm]

I am confused... once we start to talk about cannons against LB's then the argument for praets start to be pretty weak. Ok they are cheaper, but the same service you will get with muskets.

You need few pikes in any case.

Honestly after all those pages of arguments I already lost the track what actually is the argument here. Some like apples and some pears?

Are we here for getting consistent strategy for playing Rome? Then I think it's the same as for every leader. Wait for cuirs/cavs or cannons+something. This concept looks proved by ages.

 

[yatta77]

Ok. He gets credit. I'm pretty sure he speaks French better than I do.

So:
- VoU CivIV game mechanics knowledge >>> VoU French knowledge
- VoU French knowledge >>> yatta English knowledge
- yatta silliness >>> MG French knowledge

Now:
- VoU CivIV game mechanics knowledge vs. MG CivIV game mechanics knowledge?
- yatta CivIV game mechanics knowledge vs. MG CivIV game mechanics knowledge?
- Keshik vs. Praetorian on a random game?

Now, IMO, Rome UU is quite cool, looks mighty, and, well, isn't bad at all.

I personally like way better this plan than your previous Worker >> Worker >> Worker >> Worker >> Settler opening to steal workers.

So ok, let's admit that with an IW beeline on a pangea map, you can likely settle on iron in time and wipe out one civ (at least) up to Immortal with just Praetorians (my Immortal Minimalism III game is just a random example of this), and on lower levels and/or lower game speeds you can even win the game by conquest just with them. And they cost 5 less than Keshik.

Now, please consider other points of view:

1. This doesn't make a praetorian rush, like kossin already pointed out, a 360° degree reliable strategy guideline. It still an "All-In Trick" (as any rush I believe) which works nicely just in that specific context aiming something specific.

And you still didn't prove that it works on Deity/Standard, until you finish, meeting a victory condition, the Rome Deity game you started (IMO winning that game somehow, no matter being an easy start, you and your point would gain some more credit).

2. This doesn't make a Praetorian rush better than a Keshik rush. Keshik are 2x faster, "pure", since a Keshik doesn't mind about the terrain.

First, 6+1FS vs. 8 isn't a big difference facing archers and longbows I believe. CR promotions helps Praetorians, while Keshiks have to pick CI and either the Shock or Cover promotion, but Keshiks with barracks and Ger get two promotions and start with 7xp IIRC.

Iron is a bit more popular to find than horses, but again where is the horses you can see it with AH, where is the iron you need IW, so if we say with an IW beeline you get to settle on iron in time, we must say with an AH first tech researched you'll get to settle on horses in time.

HBR requires more turns than IW, but as already mentioned it has an higher value to trade, since AIs research IW more likely than HBR; and by the time Alphabet get discovered, IW is often known by about everybody.

A Praetorian defends better, but a Keshik see more far away with sentry and can target multiple targets the same turn. This is the hugest advantage attacking cities!

At some point Praetorians die like flies to take the next capital because too slow to change target. The first Civ on Immortal is kind of easy to take, the second starts to be huge losses with such slow units and especially without siege support (which is not included in a Praetorian Rush, am I correct?). I mean, it may work after the first conquered Civ, but it doesn't make it so cheap as you say.

Move 2x faster means also get there in enemy lands 2x faster.

Later you'll mix your promoted Keshiks when fighting with Cuirassiers/Cavalry, rather than mix your promoted Praetorians with Cannons. Again a better option on my books.

For a RUSH I'd pick the Mongolian UU the whole life! As I pick HAs over Swords.

However, just my (random Emperor/Immortal level player) two cents, it is just matter of tastes maybe.

Cheers!
- yatta

post #982. Wow, about 1h to write this down, not so bad for a lurker.
I hope it makes at least sense in English.

 

[Archbob]

Anyone try immortal rushing on Diety? its works as long as you don't run into too many spearmen.

 

[K.Murx]

Well, seems MG's argument is after all not for a praet "rush" or anything else worth discussing, but instead he is just telling us that "praets are a good unit worth building as Rome".

Which is probably not worth 9 pages of discussion.

 

[krikav]

They're one of the ultimate zerg rush units, and they're probably the only unit that can easily take out an established Ragnar or Monty in the medieval ages pre-Engineering.

Try using less superlatives, if you are really looking for a sane discussion.

 

[Archbob]

Tried a Praet Rush, but the civ next to me was Native American so it didn't go well at all. Sitting Bull seems like he was made to pwn Praets. Now that I think about it, there's actually several Civs that could do well against Praets.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

It's that time of year so I though I'd add some chestnuts to this open fire.

My stance on Praetorians is they're good, but not great on deity / normal speed. The war chariot is a lot better then Praetorians, earlier, cheaper, faster, and comes with 2 great leaders with the best starting tech combo.

The safest way to play praetorians is with catapults, a pure praet rush is very dicey and easily backfire ( just like an axe rush ) on deity / normal speed.

They're one of the ultimate zerg rush units, and they're probably the only unit that can easily take out an established Ragnar or Monty in the medieval ages pre-Engineering.

Easily take out Ragnar or Monte? On normal speed deity? Maybe if you catch them without metal and they don't have much land, but a 10 city Ragnar on deity / normal will pump out so many shock axes that you may not even take one city. It doesn't help that on deity AI's tend to build walls so damn early.

That's one of the problems with a pure praet rush, there is no good window of opportunity. They die hard to fortified / walled axes in the early game and face longbows / xbows later. The reason they rule on immortal and below is the AI doesn't pump out that many units. On deity it's a different story especially with a nasty unit spammer like Ragnar / Monte.

Take your large stack and place it on a forest next to their main army. Then laugh as they suicide their units attacking your forested praets. The AI never gets enough catapults, and praets are one of the best units at soaking siege damage.

I don't see what good sitting in a forest does you except waste a lot of time. If the Ai's attacking you that means you have a smaller army, which means you aren't going to be taking their cities.

However, even at Standard speeds, they're one of the best medieval fighting units in the game.

The age of the pure praet rush is over at longbows, which is technically the start of medieval warfare. A rare exception might be made if your enemy is really weak and you have a large number advantage. Other then that you'd better have catapults, which means you probably have to stop and catch up in tech ( assuming you did an early praet rush ). And by the time you catch up the Ai will probably have maces.

The way to leverage them is all-out, non-stop war and war planning for the next 1000 or so years. Since it takes the AI such a long time to get rifling, you've got a nice window there.

Hopefully you aren't talking about just praets? You would bring some trebs / phants / knights etc with you vs cuirs / grenadeers right? And if so, wouldn't you have maces by then?

At that point it would be a medieval army like any other and there would be no real benefit to having praets.

 

[Mylene]

What amazes me most is, that 1 or maybe 2 succesful game with Praets is glorified
There are countless Deity/normal games on this forum where peoples had the same succes with Jumbos/Cats and who knows what else.

The big difference is, the Jumbo combo is not dicey.
Here we have examples of rushing a Nappy who has no metals (the chance of that happening is sooo small), on a perfect map for the player, and the result is Praets are one of the ultimate rush units.
Well, thanks for the laugh

 

[Manco Capac]

Yes, it is. I'm guessing that, since you're from Quebec, you're trying too hard. It shoulda been mon cher. Both dear and my dear work in English but only the latter is proper French. IOW, it's a bad translation from English. Give him credit. He often tries to introduce foreign words and phrases. I personally find it a laudable exercise even he occasionally gets the details wrong.

Oops. I really look like someone not knowing french. Actually, french is the language I use everyday.

Anyways, I guessed right.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Yes, it is. I'm guessing that, since you're from Quebec, you're trying too hard. It shoulda been mon cher. Both dear and my dear work in English but only the latter is proper French. IOW, it's a bad translation from English.

In this particular case, it's not French, but rather an abuse of Cajun.

What amazes me most is, that 1 or maybe 2 succesful game with Praets is glorified

Do we really need many more than that? People stopped denigrating the SSE approach at about that number (key differences: published demonstrations, and also a few warmup games I'm not counting because they were at lower levels).

The reporting on Deity Praet 2 is a bit thin to satisfy here. In fairness, maybe it's not that kind of thread.

If I ran the zoo (which in this case, I don't - I'm an interested spectator, but MarigoldRan was correct when pointing out that this isn't my fight), then we'd either be seeing a walkthru, or lots of reporting of different attempts and ideas as we saw in Ironman.

 

[Dirk1302]

I tried the praet2 map too with similar results as Marigold had, i did continue the war against a second target. It doesn't say too much, someone should try HA, also it's an easy map. Reading over the argument i agree with a lot of Marigold's arguments.

Apart from rush tactics:
They're strong and have a reasonable lifespan, they're cheap as well for a str 8 unit. In the open field i would prefer them to lb's (need a mace counter though), what comes later is indeed more expensive (maces/muskets). Later on it's perfectly possible to whip expensive units and overflow to praets.

I have once used them as defenders in an AW game years ago, in the absence of skirms they're terrific defenders for quite some time.

For rushing:
Seems to me that praets are at least as good as phants for a pult rush (have to gamble iron though). If the circumstances are right as in Praet2 you can do a pure praet rush on your first target, take most of his cities, make peace and turn around immediately for a praet/pult rush on your second target. Most praets are now cr2, some cr3 tremendous city takers so you don't need to sac as many cats. Unfortunately i lost my healer so i had to make peace against my second target or it would have been even better.

In the end i haven't got enough experience with them really. I really like the possibility to begin with only praets, later on reinforce with cats. Of course not every map is suitable for that (need early commerce and iron). Also i need to play some HA rushes, i have never done one so comparing is hard for me to do. I did do elepult, i think praetpult is stronger.

 

[Manco Capac]

I tried the praet2 map too with similar results as Marigold had, i did continue the war against a second target. It doesn't say too much, someone should try HA, also it's an easy map. Reading over the argument i agree with a lot of Marigold's arguments.

Interesting turn of event...
Now I wonder about praet1, which perhaps harder.