Praets At Deity at Normal Speed

[MarigoldRan]

It sometimes works, but more often not
With HAs it's easier to stop a rush after taking a few cities, when realizing you won't go very far.

Cos it is a fast rush, you will be able to figure out the situation pretty quick.
Praets on the other hand, when walking towards the bigger cities you won't see what is going on for some time.
As you arrive, you might see lots of tough defenders and have to either suicide or give up.
With HAs you can swing around and take another city, then make peace. Senty is also very usefu for this (i would add a chariot to my Praets stack).

Again, it can work with weak neighbours. But it doesn't mean the unit is OPed or the best, what about Keshiks?
They are just as good, when i look at it with an open mind towards both strats.

The scouting beforehand is kind of important.

With praets, I've found that you generally need more than you expect due to the fact that their slow speed gives the AI more time to prepare. 2-1 numbers BY THE TIME YOU ARRIVE AT THE TARGET (important distinction here) remains a valid rule. But the good part about praets is it's pretty easy hammer-wise to get a 2-1 ratio due to their cheap cost.

And even if you don't rush, the praet remains a good unit to have. Praets are pretty powerful. OP is a matter of debate.

However, it remains one of the top units in the game. Is this debatable?

 

[MarigoldRan]

Please, MarigoldRan. VoiceofReason is a witty thinker.

And please calm down. You should be a bit more stoic.
Myself, if I wasn't, I would be all the time agressive.



cher? Is that a french word? Merriam-webster gives me nothing as result.

He is? I never knew.

And being calm is kind of boring. Being excited is more fun.

 

[Mylene]

Sure they are a good unit, the talk about them being broken OPed is boring thou ~~

 

[MarigoldRan]

I think you may not understand the concept of a timing attack, which is a fundamental of strategy games. The idea is that you act while you have a tech advantage and your opponent doesn't. There are good timing attacks and bad timing attacks. It depends on how easy it is to gain the tech advantage, and how much you have to damage your economy to exploit the tech. To dismiss all timing attacks as equal because they succeed sometimes is to trivialize a strategically deep game.

The Cuirassier rush is good because it doesn't delay Education tech or infra and does exploit the prevalence of Longbows. A Maceman rush is bad because it does delay Education and gets exploited by the prevalence of Longbows. An IW rush is closer to the latter, though less bad. A HA rush is closer to the former, though less good. Economy and technology matter more than the quality of the unit. This is one of (many) reasons that UUs are overblown -- they almost never affect the economic side of the timing attack equation.



It's either not cheap or it doesn't come early. Rushing IW has real, negative effects on your economy. Delay the rush and your timing window closes. That's the definition of what makes a rush weak. It doesn't have to be a failed rush to be a weak strat.

Issue #1: Rushing.

HBR is better trade-bait than IW.
Praets are more cost-efficient than HAs.
It's a trade-off. Your opinion is that HAs are better. I'm not so sure.

Issue #2: Not rushing. Praets are a strong unit to have even if you don't rush. I believe this is not a matter of debate?

Issue #3: Ranking the UUs. State which UU is better than the praet and your reasons why. For example: Numidians. They're like HAs, but they beat spears.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Sure they are a good unit, the talk about them being broken OPed is boring thou ~~

When has anyone here mentioned they're OP other than you and Obsolete?

 

[Lewarks]

Omg... When I read the first post and the last one I just can't belive it... "Praets makes Deity so easy" and then "Who said they were OP".

Also you forgot that you know if you have horses before HBR. Not the case for Iron.

 

[ChanceDanger]

Isn't this a thread about Praets on standard/deity?

Lord knows I know don't want to play marathon, but doesn't this thread itself have a standard/deity game played by MarigoldRan buried under a bunch of flames that started with "Praets = craptorians" and devolved into another "Marathon/Huge" thread?

Either way, instead of talking about how terrible praets and certain game settings are, let's see how much further the original game went.

 

[ori]

Moderator Action: @Everyone: Please stop attacking, insulting or sniping at each other right away. You are all welcome to discuss the topic at hand in a civil[ized] manner - or refrain from posting, you are decidedly not welcome to attack each other or otherwise be uncivil.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[kossin]

The way I see it...

You can have a general strategy that works most, if not all, of the time. For example, worker first is definitely something you'll be doing 90%+ of the time.
You can have a tip/trick/whatever you want to call it which apply to certain situations. For example, Praetorian rush, Quechua rush, etc.

A strategy, in my book, is something valid for every civilization/leader and is something that is usually true every time.
A tip is therefore not a strategy. It can be valid once in a while but certainly not every time.

In this thread's case - you have Praetorians on Deity and Normal speed. It is not a valid strategy (first off you need to play Rome...) but under given circumstances it can be a valid trick, just like stealing a worker on Deity can work - or backfire.

I have a hard time understanding why everyone is out to prove that their father can spit the farthest. If it's not in your cup of tea, why bother? If you want to milk score, it's your choice. If you want to play Marathon, that's also your choice.

But making claims based on your personal preferences is always curious. There are always a ton of facets to every medal, be careful what you try to assert.

I used to be an Epic speed player myself, and Marathon even for a while before I switched to Normal. Believe it or not, several years back Epic was played around 40% of the games on this Forum
The 'standard settings' generally accepted around here refers to the way the code is developed. You can easily see the production, food, beakers multipliers in the code... they are based on normal speed. This is a game meant to entertain. Do it the way you want!

And to quote Rusten...

 

[Keilah]

continued my game, and am now at 1420ad with ~20 cities, 1 vassal, 2 dead civs, cannons + draft rifles ftw but it's still going to be a lot of clicks so I probably won't finish it.

I was very surprised to find myself building praets right up until rifling. Sure, better units were available, but praets are just so cheap... 45 hammers for a praet, or 70 hammers for a mace with +50% vs melee? Praet plz.

 

[Archbob]

Agree with Kossin. That's why the fast worker is the best UU in the game. Its not situational and is very useful all the time.

A strategy isn't really that good if you have to redraw the map 10 times just so it works.

Immortals, War Chariots, etc are all to me better than the Praet because they are just faster. Also the Phalanx are an easy counter against Prats if your greece, a 35 cost units thats essentially a 7.5 str unit against Prats.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Omg... When I read the first post and the last one I just can't belive it... "Praets makes Deity so easy" and then "Who said they were OP".

Also you forgot that you know if you have horses before HBR. Not the case for Iron.

Wait, wait. What? "WHEN DID I WRITE PRAETS MAKE DEITY SO EASY?"

Why are people quoting things THAT I NEVER ACTUALLY SAID OR IMPLIED?

My general argument for the reading-impaired:

Praets are good.

My specific argument:

Praets are VERY good. Because they're good in lots of situations. Like, for example, before or even during when you're building cannons. They're just so damn cheap.

Agree with Kossin. That's why the fast worker is the best UU in the game. Its not situational and is very useful all the time.

A strategy isn't really that good if you have to redraw the map 10 times just so it works.

Immortals, War Chariots, etc are all to me better than the Praet because they are just faster. Also the Phalanx are an easy counter against Prats if your greece, a 35 cost units thats essentially a 7.5 str unit against Prats.

Praets are NOT situational at all.

The Praet rush is situational. But the unit remains useful even into the Industrial age.

The way I see it...

You can have a general strategy that works most, if not all, of the time. For example, worker first is definitely something you'll be doing 90%+ of the time.
You can have a tip/trick/whatever you want to call it which apply to certain situations. For example, Praetorian rush, Quechua rush, etc.

A strategy, in my book, is something valid for every civilization/leader and is something that is usually true every time.
A tip is therefore not a strategy. It can be valid once in a while but certainly not every time.

In this thread's case - you have Praetorians on Deity and Normal speed. It is not a valid strategy (first off you need to play Rome...) but under given circumstances it can be a valid trick, just like stealing a worker on Deity can work - or backfire.

I have a hard time understanding why everyone is out to prove that their father can spit the farthest. If it's not in your cup of tea, why bother? If you want to milk score, it's your choice. If you want to play Marathon, that's also your choice.

But making claims based on your personal preferences is always curious. There are always a ton of facets to every medal, be careful what you try to assert.

I used to be an Epic speed player myself, and Marathon even for a while before I switched to Normal. Believe it or not, several years back Epic was played around 40% of the games on this Forum
The 'standard settings' generally accepted around here refers to the way the code is developed. You can easily see the production, food, beakers multipliers in the code... they are based on normal speed. This is a game meant to entertain. Do it the way you want!

And to quote Rusten...

Yes, but by the same argument, HAs is NOT a valid strategy either. It's a trick because it doesn't work on many maps.

The praet rush is situational. However, to repeat myself, the UNIT is not. It's a damn good unit even into the industrial age.

 

[Archbob]

Look, if you actually develop your cities you can pump muskets in 1-2 turns in your core cities, Praets aren't useful when that happens. The usefulness of Praets is situational. LB's work well for defending after fuedalism and if you don't declare war often, they really aren't that great(as with all military UU's). The fast worker is one of the few UU's that is not situational at all, which is why they are the best UU. The Prat is a good unit, buts its not some super-unit as you want to make it out to be and its usefulness is actually situational.

Yes, but by the same argument, HAs is NOT a valid strategy either. It's a trick because it doesn't work on many maps.

Yeah, buts its a lot less situational that Prats and the movement speed is really important. I may even rank Keishiks above Praets in terms of UU.

Quenchas are rated above Prats because sometimes you don't have copper or iron and they come right off the bat. You can just create a couple of them out and take out an AI capital is very few turns extremely early on sometimes.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Look, if you actually develop your cities you can pump muskets in 1-2 turns in your core cities, Praets aren't useful when that happens. The usefulness of Praets is situational. LB's work well for defending after fuedalism and if you don't declare war often, they really aren't that great(as with all military UU's). The fast worker is one of the few UU's that is not situational at all, which is why they are the best UU. The Prat is a good unit, buts its not some super-unit as you want to make it out to be and its usefulness is actually situational.




Yeah, buts its a lot less situational that Prats and the movement speed is really important. I may even rank Keishiks above Praets in terms of UU.

How many games HAVE you played with Praets and Keshiks? Or are you just repeating what other people is saying?

Based on your EXPERIENCE, and not based on WHAT OTHERS TOLD YOU, what is your opinion? How does experience back your argument up? I want to hear something like that from people. I would like these responses to begin with like:

In the 5-10 games that I tried a praet rush on Pangea/Diety, I found that.....

Are you capable of making a statement like this? And if you're not, why are you still arguing? Go and play and see how it works.

EDIT: It's a very strong unit. At Deity, there ARE NO SUPER UNITS because the AI gets so many bonuses that anything gets countered in the right situation. But what I'm trying to say is that as a UU, praets are one of the best.

And at difficulties BELOW Deity, praets simply own face on pangea maps.

Go and try a praet rush at emperor or immortal and see how it goes.

Moderator Action: I told everyone to be civil, this includes you. "for the reading impaired", "are you capable of" are examples of not following this request. 'please cease to attack other users even obliquely. - ori
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Archbob]

How many games HAVE you played with Praets and Keshiks? Or are you just repeating what other people is saying?

Based on your EXPERIENCE, and not based on WHAT OTHERS TOLD YOU, what is your opinion? How does experience back your argument up? I want to hear something like that from people. I would like these responses to begin with like:

In the 5-10 games that I tried a praet rush on Pangea/Diety, I found that.....

Are you capable of making a statement like this? And if you're not, why are you still arguing? Go and play and see how it works.

HA are a common use for rushing, its decently successful as is the quencha cheese thing. Neither are great strategies on Deity because a lot of the time, the map just isn't built for it. I also have tried Praets before. Half the games it simply wouldn't work because the enemy cities start further from me than I anticipated. It also sucks against protective trait enemies(yes, I hate the protective trait myself but it is a really annoying AI one to deal with). Its not as good overall and its more niche than a HA rush. The Withdraw(flanking) upgrade for HA's puts it over the Prat and you can kill people and dominate their land easier with 2 movement units over 1. I've tried both these strats and if I had a choice, I'd choose the HA's over the Prats to rush with(isn't always the case because sometimes I don't have horses). And like I said, and something you won't admit, is that all Military UU's are situational. If you draw a fractal or a non-continental map, they really aren't useful. The fast worker on the other hand, works on every single map and is hands down the best UU.

I'm not arguing that Praets aren't a good UU but you have to recognize they are situational. The fact that it has to be a Pangea map makes it situational already(like most military UUs). I've beaten many games where I can just rush Shock Axes and Swords and taken out a few AI on Pangea on non-diety settings. Praets make it easier but its not really a valid diety strategy unless you get a rigged starting location.

 

[obsolete]

I'm tired of hearing "they're just so damn cheap".

Early in the game, cheap really isn't cheap. And furthermore, Churchill's Red-Coat can be drafted in THE CURRENT TURN YOU DRAFT IT for the single price of '1 pop' only.

You can't even compare how much stronger this UU is over the Prat. And I'm not just talking about POWER.. but also giving you the benefit of POWER-TO-HAMMERS. But I guess if you're doing MARATHON and have the game all wrapped up before rifling it doesn't matter. But as many others have explained before, that's really not deity.

This special red-coat even has a lifetime during the INFANTRY age.

 

[Archbob]

Really, HA's cost only 50 to the Prats 45 and both Immortals and War Chariots are cheaper and are available by just getting wheel, which I would research anyways. And BTW, Cho-ko-Nus are far more effective because they cause collateral.

And what size Pangea map are you playing on for these rushes? I can see it working for small or standard maybe(depending on your setup).

 

[MarigoldRan]

Normal speed, standard maps for these tests. On Marathon/Huge it's already accepted that it's probably OP. I think I have mentioned that military UUs are in fact situational. I believe I have specifically mentioned that on some maps, tech to Aesthetics, the usual route, is the better choice due to a lack of commerce.

Redcoats are great. Unfortunately, you need Rifling. Personally, I think cannons are better. With draft muskets and preferably, A LARGE STACK OF PRAETS. The tech required is lower, it hits earlier, and the collateral destroys enemy stacks by the way they stack into cities. With the praet, which you're going to build ANYWAYS for the Middle Ages, you don't need to draft as many muskets, which means a higher happy cap and MORE WHIPS FOR CANNONS. Drafts come with a +3 unhappy bonus, and even with the Globe Theater, drafting combined with whips in the other cities hurt.

The praet isn't merely useful as a rush. As Keilah has pointed out, they cost 45 hammers compared to maces' 70. Same strength. Useful from the beginning, for defense AND for offense. And their usefulness extends to cannons. I say that makes it a top unit BETTER than your vaunted redcoats (most of your damage will be done by collateral anyways), which comes majorly late in the tech tree. You're sacrificing speed, but praets are sturdier, and they hit harder.

Obviously there's a difference in opinion, but facts remain facts. [EDIT] Obsolete has said, on repeated occasions, that praets are a "newb" unit, when they are most definitely not. It remains a STR 8 unit that costs 45 hammers, comes early, and is effective up to Rifling.

EDIT: Furthermore, we're talking about a VERY short range of game options here. On Deity, Standard/Normal praets remain an EXCELLENT UU, though I would NOT go so far as to say they are THE BEST (just, among the top 3). On pretty much any other setting, at Immortal for example, or slower speeds like Epic and Marathon, they are probably the best UU in the game.

 

[Archbob]

I've never said Praets are a "newb units" its a UU and if you have it, you use it, but I don't think its as strong overall as you make it out to be. There are others that are stronger(that and Darius is just a stronger leader than the Roman leaders in my opinion).

 

[MarigoldRan]

I've never said Praets are a "newb units" its a UU and if you have it, you use it, but I don't think its as strong overall as you make it out to be. There are others that are stronger(that and Darius is just a stronger leader than the Roman leaders in my opinion).

EDITED THE ABOVE: The "you" referred to obsolete.

Yeah, I like Darius too. But I'm starting to like IMP a lot on standard settings. You can squeeze in one or two extra cities because of it, and the faster GGs is useful too.