Pre-ChaNES: Into the Void

Who will simply flee back to Great China with their capital and skills and further deprive the backwater of Indonesia the capital and expertise it requires to keep what you call a nation together

Certainly a possibility for some of them, but a good number of them stay because they do something very immediate about it(i.e, get the PIA into office, which is heading an alliance that is nearly a third controlled by those same Chinese). They come up with their own reasons for staying. :)

2019-2034

IN 2019, the PIA gained power in the People's Representative Council. Because of the constitutional reforms in 2002, the balance of power shifted from the President and executive branch very far to the legislative branch and the People's Representative Council. As such, the PIA and its alliance, the AIA, was able to get a number of reforms passed, detailed below.
More regional autonomy. From the success the PIA had in its regional reforms on outlying islands, they created an internal development program based on regionally proposed and supervised projects.
Less reliance on exports. The PIA developed a large number of reforms meant to keep Indonesian resources within Indonesia as much as possible, so as to promote internal industry or foreign investment. However, the influence of the Chinese minority and less reliance on oil/coal as fuel sources convinced them to export a great majority of those resources to China at a low price.
A switch to pollutant-free energy sources. The PIA experimented with geothermal, nuclear fission, and, most successfully, cheap solar power. This allowed it to keep much of its biodiversity while expanding its industrial capabilities.
Securing the nation economically to attract foreign investment. The threat to intellectual property and the bindingness of contracts in Indonesia kept many foreign companies from investing in it; the PIA attempted to change this by thoroughly regulating economic activity, although still allowing for the provision of cheap labor.
And, finally, a mapping of all of Indonesia's untapped resources. This was a massive project to locate areas containing important natural resources, mostly mineral and fossil fuels.
The PIA also started a serious funding of LANA, Indonesia's space program. Many unmanned probes were sent up and, recently, both a manned space mission and two probes to the moon were launched, with plans to follow up with a manned moon flight in 2038.

2034-2038
The PIA keeps up its internal policies. LANA progresses well, sending two more probes to the moon by 2036, and it lands its man on the moon in late 2038. However, foreign policy is the most important part of this section of Indonesian history.
In 2036, a civil war breaks out in Malaysia. Indonesia moves troops in, unsanctioned by the United Nations. Indonesia claims that they are protecting their national integrity, and that the civil war within their neighbors is threatening their own security. A poll is held in 2037 that legitimately integrates Malaysia with Indonesia; as no United Nations troops were stationed there, the decision was contested, but Indonesia remained firm and commenced another poll later that year under UN supervision. The answer remained the same. Brunei was soon to follow in 2038, when their Sultan died rather suddenly of a heart attack.
This addition of territory was a boon to Indonesia, although their long experience with dealing with conflicting interests makes the internal atmosphere little different than it was before.

2039-2053
Islam gains more prevalence within Indonesian culture, a direct result of absorbing Brunei and Malaysia, both Islamic states. The AIA still controls a good portion of the People's Representative Council, but has had a high degree of difficulty getting more reforms passed.
LANA progresses, and has plans to land a man on Mars in 2056. They have sent one other manned mission to the moon(in 2047), but never followed up with a permanent base of any kind, nor do they yet have plans to do so.
2053, one year before elections in Indonesia, finds them with a growing economy, growing population(they are now the world's third most populous nation, America dropping to third), and a very divided political atmosphere. Regional autonomy reforms have provided for great infrastructural improvements on outlying islands, and the use of cheap, efficient solar power has provided electrical energy to most inhabited areas. Geothermal and nuclear fission are a thing of the past, and fossil fuels even more so, at least as far as power plants are concerned. The most important advances have been in agriculture and industry: agriculture has become very modernized, with only a small portion of the population performing the duties, while services and industry have taken over the economy. Exports have diminished, as well as imports, as Indonesia becomes more self-sufficient.

OOC: Stats will go here as well, and maybe a few additional touches to the last history section.
 
Chandrasekhar said:
Well, the atmosphere is a very big problem. Something like 90 times Earth's air pressure, right? And a tempurature of 450 degrees celcius, which isn't anything to shrug aside either. Mars seems much more attractive as a colonization option, at least as far as I know.
Venus's problem is terraforming it requires large space-based operations, as opposed to mostly localized operations required for Mars. Birch's proposals of shading it and bombarding it with methane ice to initiate a massive Bosch reaction seems a solid plan. Given any such conversion would require nitrogen ice for an Earth-facsimilie atmosphere, and Mars needs that anyway, the two would probably be mutually complimentary.

The thing is, if you have a bunch of systems with planets that are closer to Earth standards, even if they're marginal, then there's no real good reason to bother with massive short-term programs for either Mars or Venus, as the economics don't really justify it. Terraforming anything that isn't already really close to Earth standards is pretty much just dumb if you can go a few systems farther for little cost and find something ready "off-the-shelf;" which is more or less what's going to happen in this game. Under those circumstances, Mars will probably be a dead-end or on the long-term, and Venus probably won't be bothered with at all (short of a very visionary and wealthy company that thinks it can make a killing in the real-estate business).

In other conditions Mars might be hospitable enough to be the home of an interplanetary empire, but with Earth on its doorstep, it'll probably end up as property of whoever owns its much more useful neighbor.
Doubtful. History shows colonies don't tend to work well on a single planet. One eight light-minutes and several weeks to months worth of travel away won't do too hot anyway.

lurker's comment: The kind of planet-wide terraforming you're talking about, to make Mars reasonably habitable, would take hundreds of years at the minimum.
Depends on how you do it. If you leave it to planets, it's going to be millennia. If you actually do large-scale industrial atmospheric conversion, I wouldn't be surprised if you could cut it down to century or two. The carbon would have all sorts of useful industrial applications too, so it'd be something of a positive feedback loop. The real trouble is boosting the nitrogen content.

Of course, the main problem isn't make the atmosphere breathable, but increasing its density so you can do surface work without violently decompressing, which is relatively much easier and faster.
 
Venus's problem is terraforming it requires large space-based operations, as opposed to mostly localized operations required for Mars. Birch's proposals of shading it and bombarding it with methane ice to initiate a massive Bosch reaction seems a solid plan. Given any such conversion would require nitrogen ice for an Earth-facsimilie atmosphere, and Mars needs that anyway, the two would probably be mutually complimentary.

The thing is, if you have a bunch of systems with planets that are closer to Earth standards, even if they're marginal, then there's no real good reason to bother with massive short-term programs for either Mars or Venus, as the economics don't really justify it. Terraforming anything that isn't already really close to Earth standards is pretty much just dumb if you can go a few systems farther for little cost and find something ready "off-the-shelf;" which is more or less what's going to happen in this game. Under those circumstances, Mars will probably be a dead-end or on the long-term, and Venus probably won't be bothered with at all (short of a very visionary and wealthy company that thinks it can make a killing in the real-estate business).
Oh, I don't intend for there to be an over-abundance of Earth-like planets. I think I have something like 35 systems mapped now, and three of them (including Sol) have Earth-like planets. And the other two stars are on the edge of the space I have mapped, so they can't be accessed until the intervening stars have FTL routes blazed through them.
Symphony D. said:
Doubtful. History shows colonies don't tend to work well on a single planet. One eight light-minutes and several weeks to months worth of travel away won't do too hot anyway.
Ah, interesting. Suppose that we go well over a hundred years down the line, then, and interplanetary travel is a lot easier. Would your opinion change? Do you think that interplanetary empires are even realistically possible?
 
Oh, I don't intend for there to be an over-abundance of Earth-like planets. I think I have something like 35 systems mapped now, and three of them (including Sol) have Earth-like planets. And the other two stars are on the edge of the space I have mapped, so they can't be accessed until the intervening stars have FTL routes blazed through them.
Meh. A ship full of colonists isn't going to be too happy if you say "Sorry, folks! You've only chartered for one jump! Off the ship now or we push you off of it!" In other words, I really don't see people going for a system that only has crappy planets, freedom from poverty/oppression/whatever or no, unless they're the real adventurous or rebellious sorts. Like prisoners.

The obvious solution is to just put the colonists in suspended animation, equip the ship with some decent deep-space observation gear, and keep jumping until you find a good system. Kick a comm-buoy out every system and off you go. Given the minimization of supplies necessary for this I can't really see a way of stopping people from doing it either.

Ah, interesting. Suppose that we go well over a hundred years down the line, then, and interplanetary travel is a lot easier. Would your opinion change? Do you think that interplanetary empires are even realistically possible?
You're never going to get the transit time down below about 2-4 weeks. And I think if you had instantaneous communication, massive limited to full artificial intelligence arrays to collate data, and a set of people willing to be under a single government, sure. The main part is that last bit, and it's mostly down to whether or not they feel their interests are represented well.

Given most people who leave Earth will do so either out of overpopulation or because they don't like how things are, and given Earth will, at least in its immediate vicinity be looking for resources, I don't think they'll look towards it very kindly. Terraforming Mars or not, a lot of people there will probably look to avoid Earth's mistakes and will not look upon its strip-mining or what have you well. Similarly the people elsewhere.

A divided Earth is particularly incapable of effectively imposing long-distance control. So whatever you see initially will be loose coalitions or alliances, in my opinion. Centralized interstellar states, be they dictatorships, republics, or empires, even with FTL travel, would require a large, highly organized, and unified base to establish and run.
 
Meh. A ship full of colonists isn't going to be too happy if you say "Sorry, folks! You've only chartered for one jump! Off the ship now or we push you off of it!" In other words, I really don't see people going for a system that only has crappy planets, freedom from poverty/oppression/whatever or no, unless they're the real adventurous or rebellious sorts. Like prisoners.

I'm thinking we'll have FTL travel, in which case colony ships are a distant third, after the initial scouts and then ships making a planet fit for habitation.
 
Meh. A ship full of colonists isn't going to be too happy if you say "Sorry, folks! You've only chartered for one jump! Off the ship now or we push you off of it!" In other words, I really don't see people going for a system that only has crappy planets, freedom from poverty/oppression/whatever or no, unless they're the real adventurous or rebellious sorts. Like prisoners.

The obvious solution is to just put the colonists in suspended animation, equip the ship with some decent deep-space observation gear, and keep jumping until you find a good system. Kick a comm-buoy out every system and off you go. Given the minimization of supplies necessary for this I can't really see a way of stopping people from doing it either.
Well, I intend insterstellar travel into uncivilized space to be quite expensive. As in, to send ships to a nearby uncolonized system, you have to spend some EP. Still, I'll try to think of ways to consistently limit this sort of strategy, as otherwise I can definitely see the pitfalls you describe really ruining the game.
Symphony D. said:
You're never going to get the transit time down below about 2-4 weeks. And I think if you had instantaneous communication, massive limited to full artificial intelligence arrays to collate data, and a set of people willing to be under a single government, sure. The main part is that last bit, and it's mostly down to whether or not they feel their interests are represented well.
Well, if the FTL travel method can be used at short (as in, interplanetary) range with an economical cost, that would take care of the travel time, and instantaneous communication can be similarly devised. As to AI and the will of the people, that's a bit tougher to pin down... But I think that interplanetary empires should be possible within the constraints of this Sci-Fi universe.
Symphony D. said:
Given most people who leave Earth will do so either out of overpopulation or because they don't like how things are, and given Earth will, at least in its immediate vicinity be looking for resources, I don't think they'll look towards it very kindly. Terraforming Mars or not, a lot of people there will probably look to avoid Earth's mistakes and will not look upon its strip-mining or what have you well. Similarly the people elsewhere.
Really? Reading through Red Mars, I got the impression that the people's reactions to environmentally "harmful" policies were kind of exaggerated.
Symphony D. said:
A divided Earth is particularly incapable of effectively imposing long-distance control. So whatever you see initially will be loose coalitions or alliances, in my opinion. Centralized interstellar states, be they dictatorships, republics, or empires, even with FTL travel, would require a large, highly organized, and unified base to establish and run.

Well, yes, that's something I had considered. I don't expect massive interstellar empires to spring up from the divided Earth. In fact, I count on that not happening. ;)
 
Well, if the FTL travel method can be used at short (as in, interplanetary) range with an economical cost, that would take care of the travel time
You're the one who said it wouldn't operate deep in a star's gravity well awhile back. :p

Really? Reading through Red Mars, I got the impression that the people's reactions to environmentally "harmful" policies were kind of exaggerated.
Virgin worlds. Plus, things tend to get worse before they get better; attitudes harden as a result.
 
You're the one who said it wouldn't operate deep in a star's gravity well awhile back. :p
I think that FTL'ing from fairly near to a star wouldn't be too bad, but doing so near a planet would be. So it would just be a matter of getting a decent distance away from the initial planet and flying over to a point that is a similar distance away from the destination planet. It's a fine compromise, I think. ;)
Symphony D. said:
Virgin worlds. Plus, things tend to get worse before they get better; attitudes harden as a result.
Well, at least as far as I've gotten in the book, the Terran efforts at setting up Martian are pretty incompetent, so perhaps things won't go as badly in this NES. Even without obviously destructive techniques, I think that colonies on these planets should be able to turn a profit.
 
I think that FTL'ing from fairly near to a star wouldn't be too bad, but doing so near a planet would be. So it would just be a matter of getting a decent distance away from the initial planet and flying over to a point that is a similar distance away from the destination planet. It's a fine compromise, I think. ;)
You do know the ∆v of the Sun for escape velocity is greater than the Earth's LEO ∆v all the way out to just before Uranus, right? Even if you're far away from a planet you're still deep in the Solar gravitational well until well into the Outer Solar System. Even by the time you get to Neptune, it's still greater than Mars' escape velocity.
 
You do know the ∆v of the Sun for escape velocity is greater than the Earth's LEO ∆v all the way out to just before Uranus, right? Even if you're far away from a planet you're still deep in the Solar gravitational well until well into the Outer Solar System. Even by the time you get to Neptune, it's still greater than Mars' escape velocity.

Ah, no, I didn't know that. I suppose it should've been easy enough to intuit, though. In that case, I'll have to rethink the limitations on this FTL technology. I already sort of had an idea stewing, and it might work out better anyway. I'll have to make the features and limitations of this technology very clear in the tech file for it, I suppose.
 
Just found this thread--very interesting. Don't have the time to play, but I'll certainly lurk.

Two things:

1. Symphony threw in a line about this earlier, but it seemed to be ignored. It's almost certain in a future where space programs continue that at least one space elevator will exist. It doesn't require much of an advance in technology, and is (relatively) cheap and cost-effective. I'd imagine there will either be one international elevator or multiple national ones.

2. Even if you don't want to add a fifth PC nation, I'd strongly urge you to at least include something in Update 0 about an NPC Russia's space program. Certainly it will be at least a decade ahead of Indonesia's. I'd imagine that if the US and EU have done something, than Russia has as well or is very close to achieving it. So if there is more than one moon base, Russia will have one. Certainly Russia will have been back to the moon.
 
And now, for Indonesia's final stats.

Indonesia
Leader: President Santoso (Fuschia)
Capital: Jakarta, Earth
Government: Presidential Republic
Technology: 2053 (Indonesia's poor economy has kept it rather far behind the world's super powers. It has also been very careful to maintain its biodiversity while continuing with modernization. Because of this, it has a technology level slightly below average. The benefits of technology are felt on many of the smaller islands as a result of the AIA's regional autonomy reforms.)
Army Stats: Indonesia's army is of average size for its population.
Army Description: Mostly infantry with a healthy dose of air and naval support. Quick transportation is their greatest asset, as it is essential to island combat; helicopters and small, quick boats are in large quantities to allow for easy transportation.
Navy Stats: Still not sure here.
Navy Description: Indonesia started its space program slightly after India began theirs, but have not advanced it very far, although they have landed two men on the moon and sent probes to several planets in the solar system and one is making its way outside.
Total Economy: Economy is undergoing a serious swing from agriculture and export based to a much more industry/services based economy with fewer exports. Economy is growing rapidly, although this has leveled off in recent years. Very little reliance on fuel for electricity, as solar, geothermal, and nuclear plants produce almost 90% of their power.
Planets Occupied: Earth
Avg. Infrastructure: Average
Control: High
Total Population: 2.5 billion
Military Cap: No idea here...
Education: Good
Avg. Safety & Health: Average
Avg. Patriotism: High
Projects: None
History: The AIA, an alliance headed by the PIA, gained nominal control of the People's Representative Council in the 2019 elections. They passed many economic reforms, and allowed for greater regional autonomy. LANA, the Indonesian space program, became properly funded at this time as well. Malaysia and Brunei were incorporated into Indonesia in 2036 and 2038, respectively. This makes Islam a much more important factor in Indonesian politics, as both Malaysia and Brunei were Islamic states.

Hopefully this seems reasonable. The population may be higher, as I put the average growth factor at about 1.05%(it is listed as 1.3-ish for Indonesia and around 1.8 for Malaysia and Brunei, but I cut back a lot on that because of population limits). The total starting population of Indonesia(Plus Malaysia and Brunei) is 260068574, so use that in any calculations if you decide to check for yourself.
 
Whoah. I think that population is about twice the practical limit, at the very least.

Nice stuff otherwise though.
 
I can't see Indonesia's education system being Good in only five decades. I also have trouble seeing their health being that high. Especially with ten times the current population.
 
Like I said, I did a possibly bad job on the population. Feel free to change, Chandrasekhar. Really.

As for education, the Constitution of Indonesia requires that 20% of the national budget be spent on education. Therefore, if Indonesia's economy increases greatly, the chances are there education might be better funded than America's by 2053.
 
As for education, the Constitution of Indonesia requires that 20% of the national budget be spent on education. Therefore, if Indonesia's economy increases greatly, the chances are there education might be better funded than America's by 2053.

Money is not a cure-all. The fact is that educating even a few hundred million, let alone a billion or two people, without any real previous educational infrastructure, is extremely difficult.
 
Alright, I think I have most everything necessary to start writing the update, so I'll begin doing so. How does 24 hours from this post sound for a deadline for new material?

Oh, and a question for China: It's safe to assume that its method of government is some sort of nominally democratic one-party state?

Edit: Oh, and on the subject of Indonesia's education, I believe that it's one of those problems that can't be made better just by throwing money at it.
 
There is an increased level of democratic rule on the local and regional level, but the central government is indeed still essentially a dictatorship.
 
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