Immaculate
unerring
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2003
- Messages
- 7,623
You said:
Map?
Also: Hint: Leave MANY posts for your future use reserved on the first page when you start (like 20!).
Pre-EkoNES: Fall From Heaven
- Thread starter Ekolite
- Start date
Map?
Also: Hint: Leave MANY posts for your future use reserved on the first page when you start (like 20!).
Ekolite
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2007
- Messages
- 5,451
Oh, yeah.... the map.
I got a bit side-tracked with techs and combat and such and haven't really progressed with the map at all since posting that. Thing is, I'm getting no where with the terrain which really is the limitting factor. I'm going to try to create a map without realistic terrain, just using block colour. It's not ideal but it will have to do. Unfortunately even this takes time.
I'll make it my new priority I promise
.
I got a bit side-tracked with techs and combat and such and haven't really progressed with the map at all since posting that. Thing is, I'm getting no where with the terrain which really is the limitting factor. I'm going to try to create a map without realistic terrain, just using block colour. It's not ideal but it will have to do. Unfortunately even this takes time.
I'll make it my new priority I promise
.
Ekolite
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2007
- Messages
- 5,451
Trimming The Fat
Ok, as EkoNES continues to crawl slowly towards completion (ie. the Start) I have decided to trim some of the excess features and details that will lengthen the delay until the game can start, slow down the running of the game, and increase confusion levels for both the players and the mod. Here is a list of things that have been cut, things that may be cut, and things that will definitely not be cut. Please feel free to give opinions or suggestions.
Crime Rate: It was an unnecessary feature, that would just lead to confusion. Buildings and effects that would havee increased crime now decrease stability, which I think is pretty fitting, and effects and buidlings that would have decreased crime now increase stability and approval and provide a small amount of espioange.
Specialists: Well, they're not completely cut. The Professional workforce type is renamed ''Specialists'' and encompasses things like doctors, researchers, judges, law enforcers and lots of other things. There will still be ''great people'' style events, and I feel that with the removal of the traditional style of specialists these will be more important and unique. I'm considering reversing thsi change though as I thought it was an interesting second use of workforces and a good way to fill out lacking techs with specialist slots/discounts.
Effect of Resources: As it is now, resources provide a whole range of effects such as food bonuses or extra gold to the owner of the resource, regardless of whether they were imported or home-grown. This is on top of the gold that both parties get from a trade, and on top of the bonuses ''resource improvements'' have over standard improvements of the type. I might cut the additional effects of resources, I need opinions.
Outposts: No longer have stats, they are now very cheap ''surveilance'' improvements. Minor Towns and Forts still have small stat boxes.
Minor Towns: Now have 3 stages of development only. Growth is controlled by the player. The size stat is equal to the number of workforces available, and all workforces in these towns, named ''Rural'' Workforces cost 20 gold. Rural workforces can be used in place of Gatherer or Labourer workforces.
Simplification: The spreadsheet has been simplified slightly, due to the removal of specialists and some minor things.
---
Also, I've found a solution/compromise to the population problem. More details coming soon.
EDIT:
Quasi-Realistic Population Stat:
Cities start at 4 population units, which equates to 4 workforces. (Minor towns can reach population three, at which point they can be upgraded to a city)
Each population provides 2 gold each turn in tax.
To get more population points, a player can spend 10 food, 10 production, and 10 gold for each point. The price does not increase over time.
Each population costs 2 food per turn in upkeep and decreases the health of the city by 2%.
There is a maximum amount of population a city can have without boosting buildings. ''Management'' buildings such as city halls and town halls can increase this limit.
The amount a city can grow in size by each turn is called the growth rate. The growth rate is controlled by the health and stability of the city. If health and stability become too low, the city cannot grow. This is because the death rate has increased due crime or disease, or the birth rate has decreased due to the uncertain future of the city. Not being able to grow can be very bad if your population has been decreased by events and you no longer have enough workforces to run your improvements, or sufficient size to run certain buildings. Events that decrease population will only remove workforces if there are no ''unemployed'' population points in the city.
Generally, if health and stability are average the growth rate will be 1. Below average the growth rate will be 0. Above average health and stability values (~70) can allow for large population increases (2 or even 3 per turn). However, realistically it is unlikely to ever increase a city by that many people as the price is fairly high and you get negative effects from having a too large population, particularly if you cannot employ them, as unemployed population do not provide gold and cause a small approval decrease, while all negative effects still apply. Events can increase or decrease the population, when iit is increased you will not usually need to pay the cost of growth.
This seems to tie togeather the Health, Stability and Growth concepts quite nicely.
Ok, as EkoNES continues to crawl slowly towards completion (ie. the Start) I have decided to trim some of the excess features and details that will lengthen the delay until the game can start, slow down the running of the game, and increase confusion levels for both the players and the mod. Here is a list of things that have been cut, things that may be cut, and things that will definitely not be cut. Please feel free to give opinions or suggestions.
Crime Rate: It was an unnecessary feature, that would just lead to confusion. Buildings and effects that would havee increased crime now decrease stability, which I think is pretty fitting, and effects and buidlings that would have decreased crime now increase stability and approval and provide a small amount of espioange.
Specialists: Well, they're not completely cut. The Professional workforce type is renamed ''Specialists'' and encompasses things like doctors, researchers, judges, law enforcers and lots of other things. There will still be ''great people'' style events, and I feel that with the removal of the traditional style of specialists these will be more important and unique. I'm considering reversing thsi change though as I thought it was an interesting second use of workforces and a good way to fill out lacking techs with specialist slots/discounts.
Effect of Resources: As it is now, resources provide a whole range of effects such as food bonuses or extra gold to the owner of the resource, regardless of whether they were imported or home-grown. This is on top of the gold that both parties get from a trade, and on top of the bonuses ''resource improvements'' have over standard improvements of the type. I might cut the additional effects of resources, I need opinions.
Outposts: No longer have stats, they are now very cheap ''surveilance'' improvements. Minor Towns and Forts still have small stat boxes.
Minor Towns: Now have 3 stages of development only. Growth is controlled by the player. The size stat is equal to the number of workforces available, and all workforces in these towns, named ''Rural'' Workforces cost 20 gold. Rural workforces can be used in place of Gatherer or Labourer workforces.
Simplification: The spreadsheet has been simplified slightly, due to the removal of specialists and some minor things.
---
Also, I've found a solution/compromise to the population problem. More details coming soon.
EDIT:
Quasi-Realistic Population Stat:
Cities start at 4 population units, which equates to 4 workforces. (Minor towns can reach population three, at which point they can be upgraded to a city)
Each population provides 2 gold each turn in tax.
To get more population points, a player can spend 10 food, 10 production, and 10 gold for each point. The price does not increase over time.
Each population costs 2 food per turn in upkeep and decreases the health of the city by 2%.
There is a maximum amount of population a city can have without boosting buildings. ''Management'' buildings such as city halls and town halls can increase this limit.
The amount a city can grow in size by each turn is called the growth rate. The growth rate is controlled by the health and stability of the city. If health and stability become too low, the city cannot grow. This is because the death rate has increased due crime or disease, or the birth rate has decreased due to the uncertain future of the city. Not being able to grow can be very bad if your population has been decreased by events and you no longer have enough workforces to run your improvements, or sufficient size to run certain buildings. Events that decrease population will only remove workforces if there are no ''unemployed'' population points in the city.
Generally, if health and stability are average the growth rate will be 1. Below average the growth rate will be 0. Above average health and stability values (~70) can allow for large population increases (2 or even 3 per turn). However, realistically it is unlikely to ever increase a city by that many people as the price is fairly high and you get negative effects from having a too large population, particularly if you cannot employ them, as unemployed population do not provide gold and cause a small approval decrease, while all negative effects still apply. Events can increase or decrease the population, when iit is increased you will not usually need to pay the cost of growth.
This seems to tie togeather the Health, Stability and Growth concepts quite nicely.
Immaculate
unerring
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2003
- Messages
- 7,623
I like the additional effects idea. resource trade starts off pretty rare and gets more and more common (i think) so it makes it fun when you get it.
Agree with everything else.
I'd rather cut gold from trading resources than the resources effect. Keep it. A resource called silver which grants + 3gold could be bought at 1 gold per turn for instance, which makes it interesting. A resource called shutzpah which can only be exchanged is not half as fun.
I'm not sure about your model. Do you have to guess next turn's growth rate in order to know how much you can grow your city or is it this turn's growth that you can use in your orders to grow the city? What happens if your city should/could grow and you don't spend the gold on it? I guess people should become unhappy?
Also, the linear model sounds simple, but I suppose the gains from population will be linear too or better, and offset the cost of growing. I'm not sure the 2% health penalty will be enough, depends on how many ways you have to offset this penalty.
I'd rather have automatic growth based on food surplus, health and stability, with stability/health hits if you don't pay for infrastructure to grow your city. Of course, that could be too complex/cheap for your taste.
Is food wasted from one turn to the next, or carried over (the latter doesn't make sense if food is food, but might make sense if it's growth potential)? I suppose it doesn't carry over and neither does production. Also is food empire-wide or limited to the production city/town or can be traded between cities (and if so, why not between empires)?
Will it be possible to move people from one place to another (think exodus)?
Ekolite
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2007
- Messages
- 5,451
*blinks*
Ok. Right. The Growth Rate that is in your stats is the growth that you use. The main idea is that, without the player specifically growing the city, which is done on real terms by providing the infaustructure and services required to support the additional population. Only in the case of rare events can a city grow independantly of the player's will and in these cases you will not usually need to pay the cost. If your city can grow, represented by a growth rate other then zero, but you choose not to grow the city, there are no negative effects. If there were it would provide an unwanted disadvantage to having a high health and stability.
The linear model is needed so that events that add or subtract population from a city do not penalise or advantage players with larger populations more then those with smaller populations, and because it stops things like workforce numbers and food requirement spiraling out of control.
The health penalty per population has been increased to 3%, which seems to work quite well. All the figures are working numbers though, so may change further.
Automatic growth was my preferance too but I think it will be too much work and complication on my part, and in a way detracts from the strategy of the game. Food is carried across to the next turn, I know this sounds unrealistic but basically, with a surplus, people can eat the stored food and replace it with the food produced each year, so in theory these stores can work. The food stored in one turn is not the same food that you had stored 3 turns ago even if it is of the same value. Food Stored is empire-wide (ie. a national stat) and can be traded in the same way as gold (once a tech is reached most likely).
It may be possible to move people from one place to another through events or projects. It may be desirable to do so from a city to a town as it is more expensive to grow a town then it is a city, this is for balance purposes as towns do not have their growth moderated by health and stability, and they provide quite a lot of gold at their biggest level.
Ok. Right. The Growth Rate that is in your stats is the growth that you use. The main idea is that, without the player specifically growing the city, which is done on real terms by providing the infaustructure and services required to support the additional population. Only in the case of rare events can a city grow independantly of the player's will and in these cases you will not usually need to pay the cost. If your city can grow, represented by a growth rate other then zero, but you choose not to grow the city, there are no negative effects. If there were it would provide an unwanted disadvantage to having a high health and stability.
The linear model is needed so that events that add or subtract population from a city do not penalise or advantage players with larger populations more then those with smaller populations, and because it stops things like workforce numbers and food requirement spiraling out of control.
The health penalty per population has been increased to 3%, which seems to work quite well. All the figures are working numbers though, so may change further.
Automatic growth was my preferance too but I think it will be too much work and complication on my part, and in a way detracts from the strategy of the game. Food is carried across to the next turn, I know this sounds unrealistic but basically, with a surplus, people can eat the stored food and replace it with the food produced each year, so in theory these stores can work. The food stored in one turn is not the same food that you had stored 3 turns ago even if it is of the same value. Food Stored is empire-wide (ie. a national stat) and can be traded in the same way as gold (once a tech is reached most likely).
It may be possible to move people from one place to another through events or projects. It may be desirable to do so from a city to a town as it is more expensive to grow a town then it is a city, this is for balance purposes as towns do not have their growth moderated by health and stability, and they provide quite a lot of gold at their biggest level.
thomas.berubeg
Wandering the World
This may be a bit too complicated, or more work than you feel like doing, but, it might be interesting to have, through events, Migrations from on Civ to another, creating small enclaves within other civilization. The receiving civilization might gain a Tech from the immigrants, be able to hire a UU from the other civ, or create a unique building.
vruchten
Found serenity in torture
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2009
- Messages
- 385
i`m quite new, so i don`t really know what gamemechanisms work good and which not,
but just for the flavor of the game i think the additional effects of resources are making it far more interesting... like buying mithril from the khazad to make better axes, rather than just getting some extra gold...(just as an example)
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
Keep resources as unique as possible, yes.
And pop system sounds good now.
And pop system sounds good now.
MasterofDisasta
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2008
- Messages
- 355
I also like the idea of assigning effects to resources, if we could keep one thing, I would vote for that one since it makes trading more interesting.
Ekolite
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2007
- Messages
- 5,451
A lot of the OP is out of date now, so it will be updated asap.
Also, please don't expect this to be ready to begin until late May at the earliest. May is my exam period and I have already had to begin revising, meaning my time for developing EkoNES is limitted.
It is very much on its way now though. It is mainly effects of buildings and improvements (a daunting balancing task) and filling out some of teh techs that need doing, then once the map is done (thanks again Immy) I have to do the territories, location and flavour of NPC's, and other things like that. There may b e further simplifications, there may not be, I don't really know.
Also, please don't expect this to be ready to begin until late May at the earliest. May is my exam period and I have already had to begin revising, meaning my time for developing EkoNES is limitted.
It is very much on its way now though. It is mainly effects of buildings and improvements (a daunting balancing task) and filling out some of teh techs that need doing, then once the map is done (thanks again Immy) I have to do the territories, location and flavour of NPC's, and other things like that. There may b e further simplifications, there may not be, I don't really know.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
I will probably be on various vacation trips in July, probably with access to the internet once in a week or so, perhaps even less. Does this mean I need to find a reserve?
Ekolite
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2007
- Messages
- 5,451
I will... also... have an internet free week or two :/
Well actually I think the place where I'm going has internet connection, although whether I'm going to want to write an update on holiday is questionable.
Missing a week or two is fine, most people probably will probably do so as it is holiday season. You can write general plans for those weeks and I will NPC you based on those general plans.
Well actually I think the place where I'm going has internet connection, although whether I'm going to want to write an update on holiday is questionable.
Missing a week or two is fine, most people probably will probably do so as it is holiday season. You can write general plans for those weeks and I will NPC you based on those general plans.
Seon
Not An Evil Liar
I may join, whatever the stand-in players mean. Btw Ekolite, are you planning on doing what is similiar to what Immac was doing? Allowing lurkers to sometimes come in and play as certain units?
Immaculate
unerring
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2003
- Messages
- 7,623
ignore what i sent you- i have made another try and it looks much better.... rivers are diffiuclt though.
orangelex44
Partisan
It's good to see that this is still slowly chugging along. Any change to expected start-up time? Still late spring/early summer?
One thing: A cursory examination of the first page seems to show that you've fallen behind a bit in updating it to some recent changes. Am I right, Kol, or did I read something wrong?
@Seon: And you might as well become a stand-in. If something happens and you get in, great - and if you'd rather not do so (it doesn't sound like you will), just say no. Win-win, and even Kol wins since he has one more option if he needs it.
One thing: A cursory examination of the first page seems to show that you've fallen behind a bit in updating it to some recent changes. Am I right, Kol, or did I read something wrong?
@Seon: And you might as well become a stand-in. If something happens and you get in, great - and if you'd rather not do so (it doesn't sound like you will), just say no. Win-win, and even Kol wins since he has one more option if he needs it.
