Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
The best guide (sic) you can find is your brain; fiddle around with it and see what you can come up with, then post it here and let us pick at the flaws.
Pre-SysNES2: Beta-testing and Submission
- Thread starter Disenfrancised
- Start date
The best guide (sic) you can find is your brain; fiddle around with it and see what you can come up with, then post it here and let us pick at the flaws.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Two possible permutations for the long-range particle sniper:
CSS Dragonfly Mk 1
Cost: 51e
Particle Damage: 16
IP Speed: 6
8x Deuterium Drive (Refined)
2x Pulse Drive
1x Radiators
2x Mag Catapult
CSS Dragonfly Mk 2
Cost: 44e
Particle Damage: 24
IP Speed: 7
8x Deuterium Drive (Refined)
1x Pulse Drive
1x Radiators
2x Mag Catapult (Refined)
Description: Like what Symph is doing, but sacrifices survivability for increased damage, betting that very few things can match its speed and hit it. Also needs a carrier ship. Both have crap dodge and armor. Mk1 is for the thrifty consumer shopping without a massive refinement budget.
Possible Mk3 slaps some armor on Mk2 and trades down an IP Speed or two.
I'm so so so tempted to change my traits and get some auto-refined components, but who knows if I'll get stuck with a refined Algorithmic Interlocks.
CSS Dragonfly Mk 1
Cost: 51e
Particle Damage: 16
IP Speed: 6
8x Deuterium Drive (Refined)
2x Pulse Drive
1x Radiators
2x Mag Catapult
CSS Dragonfly Mk 2
Cost: 44e
Particle Damage: 24
IP Speed: 7
8x Deuterium Drive (Refined)
1x Pulse Drive
1x Radiators
2x Mag Catapult (Refined)
Description: Like what Symph is doing, but sacrifices survivability for increased damage, betting that very few things can match its speed and hit it. Also needs a carrier ship. Both have crap dodge and armor. Mk1 is for the thrifty consumer shopping without a massive refinement budget.
Possible Mk3 slaps some armor on Mk2 and trades down an IP Speed or two.
I'm so so so tempted to change my traits and get some auto-refined components, but who knows if I'll get stuck with a refined Algorithmic Interlocks.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
So dis, slapping 1x Maneuvering Jets on something as small as the Dragonfly Mk2 (52 size, 27 mass) currently reduces its Dodge by 3 (!). 2x Jets reduces its Dodge by 2. Are you sure that they're working as intended?
Symphony D.
Deity
It's because the mass/size is sufficient to decrease performance by itself more than the bonus. Generally if you add enough Pulse Drives to increase speed/handling, Maneuvering Jets or Gas Rockets will increase performance, although you generally need several of the former. One on its on is usually not enough to impact anything (and increases cost pointlessly). Basically: large warships pay a lot for improved mobility.
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
Put numbers of components you want for the ship in the components column, and the results of that ship (and if its a valid design) will be displayed on the right. Grey fields are the ones the player can add data too. If you want a more in depth look at the components the description page says what they do, the TT page displays their tech requirements and the CC page displays the raw numbers of each component.
You could research Construction technology.
Final Ship Dodge (FSD) is a function of Component Dodge (CD), IP Speed, Mass and Size.
CD in the Maneuvering Jets case is (non-refined) simply 0.8*Propulsion tech Additive to the rest of the function. That means for every increase in Propulsion tech you are getting 0.8 added to its CD.
Of the other components the only one directly affected by tech is Size. Size varies as:
-(Size^1.2)/(3+Construction)
For a sufficiently large ship this is going to overwhelm the piddly 0.8 increase of propulsion from tech (size 50, tech 3, this gives -18 to the sum!), obviously decreasing this is much better than increasing your propulsion!
However, in your case you have the interesting situation where an addition of jets brings you down a speed category (Bad), puts you up a size category (bad) which cannot be compensated for by the addition of the maneuvering jets.
All your stats where on the edge so to speak, and perturbing it for any of them let dodge fall.
Also gas jets are better up until tech 5 ish (although size is more a worry there)
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
In my opinion, for Maneuvering Jets to be cost-effective, their boost to raw dodge should be buffed a little bit. The really small ships that Symphony is posting have no need for Maneuvering Jets because they already have high Dodge, and the mid-range ships that I'm posting can't benefit from it...so right now it's in danger of becoming a useless component.
Eh not really, you put a few man jets onto a ship to boost the dodge now and future proof the ship to a small degree...It works perfectly for the middle cases of ship size and capabilities.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Again, on a ship the size of the Dragonfly, it doesn't matter how many Maneuvering Jets you add, 4,5, even 10, the dodge still decreases. That doesn't seem to be working as intended.
Edit: I have tried Maneuvering Jets on TINY-ASS ships (size, mass 20) and they are still not granting dodge. Can someone please stop looking at me like I'm insane and just check the code?
Edit: I have tried Maneuvering Jets on TINY-ASS ships (size, mass 20) and they are still not granting dodge. Can someone please stop looking at me like I'm insane and just check the code?
Again, on a ship the size of the Dragonfly, it doesn't matter how many Maneuvering Jets you add, 4,5, even 10, the dodge still decreases. That doesn't seem to be working as intended.
Edit: I have tried Maneuvering Jets on TINY-ASS ships (size, mass 20) and they are still not granting dodge. Can someone please stop looking at me like I'm insane and just check the code?
I have a dinky little ship, tech 3, deuterium drive, pulse drive: Dodge 6, as its going at IP7 (maxed out due to ship constraints). But that's already maxed out (above dodge limit). So I add Water Suspension to try and get more than 6 dodge. It hurts, with the addition of water suspension the ship maxes out at 6 dodge anyway (speed drop, size/mass increase). Adding maneuvering jets causes the ship to drop in dodge as I'm working with a rubbish tech 3 limit and this maneuvering jet increase cannot overcome the massive drop in IP speed I'm getting from all this size increase.
However, I have a ship with Deut Drive, Pulse Drive, Water Suspension and 4 maneuvering jets and 5 dodge. I research tech 4 propulsion, my ship goes up to 7 dodge, at propulsion 5 I've already maxed out to the max dodge possible on the ship without some other water suspension like component. (Alternatively you could research construction tech to 15 and get it to dodge 7, but that's insane...on a bigger ship on the other hand, much more useful). True the ship is not viable, needs power but that is not the point.
If you want to future proof tech 3 designs research a template with some space for them, once the tech is going to deliver results, build the ship with the jets, once built it will continue to improve with the tech. Otherwise, no, maneuvering jets are rubbish at tech 3, but for a component that gets better with tech level what did you expect? Awesome all the way through?
Symphony D.
Deity
Praxzen Fleet Concept COLD LIGHTNING
Less expensive than MIDWAY in terms of v, COLD LIGHTNING is new, mixed-damage, Charm-equipped fleet concept built on a fusion of high-quality Particle ships with a copious quantity of cheap Missile ships.
COLD LIGHTNING jumps as a group into enemy system, with Hornet at extreme range, Thunderbolt IIs at close range, and Avengers at long range.
The Thunderbolt II is hilariously difficult to kill unless something relatively special is present to bring it down (probably a high-init, high-damage Laser with some EW), and can get in close and mix it up. Although armed with relatively few guns, its endurance means that it will take a toll on anything without shields long before being silenced. The Avengers are cheap enough to be fielded in numbers, and although they lack a truly dedicated onboard Computer Module compliment, 11 Init with 36 Kinetic Lances per turn is nothing to sneeze at and can overwhelm most Interceptor defenses.
Focus on one to get torn up by the other. Weapons flexibility should theoretically let it fight against different defense types, either Armor or Shields, and thus against different damage types. (I can see it functioning to some capacity against Laser, Particle, and Missile fleets, but can't confirm myself.)
---
If you wind up against Plasma Shields and can't kill it with Avengers, with COM4 you get to build an EW variant of the Thunderbolt II:
---
Would like to see this one actually tested. I can't get the Battle Calculator proper to work with 2003. (It complains about "Unrecognized Text" everywhere.)
Less expensive than MIDWAY in terms of v, COLD LIGHTNING is new, mixed-damage, Charm-equipped fleet concept built on a fusion of high-quality Particle ships with a copious quantity of cheap Missile ships.
Spoiler Fleet Composition :
The Thunderbolt II is hilariously difficult to kill unless something relatively special is present to bring it down (probably a high-init, high-damage Laser with some EW), and can get in close and mix it up. Although armed with relatively few guns, its endurance means that it will take a toll on anything without shields long before being silenced. The Avengers are cheap enough to be fielded in numbers, and although they lack a truly dedicated onboard Computer Module compliment, 11 Init with 36 Kinetic Lances per turn is nothing to sneeze at and can overwhelm most Interceptor defenses.
Focus on one to get torn up by the other. Weapons flexibility should theoretically let it fight against different defense types, either Armor or Shields, and thus against different damage types. (I can see it functioning to some capacity against Laser, Particle, and Missile fleets, but can't confirm myself.)
---
If you wind up against Plasma Shields and can't kill it with Avengers, with COM4 you get to build an EW variant of the Thunderbolt II:
Spoiler :
---
Would like to see this one actually tested. I can't get the Battle Calculator proper to work with 2003. (It complains about "Unrecognized Text" everywhere.)
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Seems like the real counter would be an EW-ship with low vulnerability.
With an EW vulnerability that high, your command ship runs the risk of being nullified easily. Of course, if your fleet can handle itself without the init bonuses it's not a crippling loss, but even so.
@dis: Do you have any plans to help some of the less involved players deal with the somewhat significant learning curve that this NES represents? Along the lines of tutorials/templates, maybe.
With an EW vulnerability that high, your command ship runs the risk of being nullified easily. Of course, if your fleet can handle itself without the init bonuses it's not a crippling loss, but even so.
@dis: Do you have any plans to help some of the less involved players deal with the somewhat significant learning curve that this NES represents? Along the lines of tutorials/templates, maybe.
Symphony D.
Deity
As I understand it Fleet Init operates regardless of distance from the fight, so if an EW ship somehow gets to it, either your jump plan is wrong, or you picked a fight with somebody with enough spare resources to happen to distribute EW birds all throughout the target system.
If that is not the case, if you aren't blowing local EW away on turn one with all that firepower then your targeting priorities are seriously maladjusted. Especially since one of the benefits of Charm-using fleets is they don't have to take a turn to deploy, so you get to Fire On Arrival.
If that is not the case, if you aren't blowing local EW away on turn one with all that firepower then your targeting priorities are seriously maladjusted. Especially since one of the benefits of Charm-using fleets is they don't have to take a turn to deploy, so you get to Fire On Arrival.
Symphony D.
Deity
Let's Try Something New: T3 SHIP CHALLENGE
Because putting together a fleet is fairly involved, here's an idea for those who feel intimidated by it: design a single low-tech, general-purpose, stand-alone, IS-capable expeditionary ship. This would be the vacuum-equivalent of Civ's First Green-Water Navy Ship to show the flag, explore, skirmish, perform guard duty, and shoot some pirates. Let's set some maximum conditions (subject to review): 100e, 100s, 75m, 75v, no refinement, uniform T3 (and probably your traits).
Don't worry about trying to stand up in a fleet fight (because you won't), just try and focus on something that's not a death-trap for your first intrepid explorers.
---
Conditions: T3, Advancer, Poor Safety
---
Enfield class Explorer Sloop
10 Burst Drive
1 Basic Fusion Core
2 Deuterium Drive
1 Recyclers
1 Hibernation Pods
1 Computer Module
1 Scanners
1 Jammer
2 Kinetic Lances
4 Coilguns
3 Carbon Armor
1 Heavy Cladding
Cost: 81e (36e) / 38m / 14v / 0a / 0t / 34s
Size: 50 / Mass: 52 / IS: 1 / IP: 1
Range: 2 / Power: 0 / Heat: -5
Init: 3 / Dodge: -14 / Avoid: 2 / Armor: 11 / Shield: 0
Refine: 117e / 29s
Projectile Gun Total Damage: 4
Missile Total Damage: 12
All-around design, pokey but decently armed: the Lances give it the ability to reach out and touch somebody at range, with the Coilguns give close-in defense and punch. Defenses are merely passable, though the Jammer gives it a little edge. CON3 is a real bastard with Poor Safety.
Because putting together a fleet is fairly involved, here's an idea for those who feel intimidated by it: design a single low-tech, general-purpose, stand-alone, IS-capable expeditionary ship. This would be the vacuum-equivalent of Civ's First Green-Water Navy Ship to show the flag, explore, skirmish, perform guard duty, and shoot some pirates. Let's set some maximum conditions (subject to review): 100e, 100s, 75m, 75v, no refinement, uniform T3 (and probably your traits).
Don't worry about trying to stand up in a fleet fight (because you won't), just try and focus on something that's not a death-trap for your first intrepid explorers.
---
Conditions: T3, Advancer, Poor Safety
---
Enfield class Explorer Sloop
10 Burst Drive
1 Basic Fusion Core
2 Deuterium Drive
1 Recyclers
1 Hibernation Pods
1 Computer Module
1 Scanners
1 Jammer
2 Kinetic Lances
4 Coilguns
3 Carbon Armor
1 Heavy Cladding
Cost: 81e (36e) / 38m / 14v / 0a / 0t / 34s
Size: 50 / Mass: 52 / IS: 1 / IP: 1
Range: 2 / Power: 0 / Heat: -5
Init: 3 / Dodge: -14 / Avoid: 2 / Armor: 11 / Shield: 0
Refine: 117e / 29s
Projectile Gun Total Damage: 4
Missile Total Damage: 12
All-around design, pokey but decently armed: the Lances give it the ability to reach out and touch somebody at range, with the Coilguns give close-in defense and punch. Defenses are merely passable, though the Jammer gives it a little edge. CON3 is a real bastard with Poor Safety.
I'll pit something together, what techs are you using?
Symphony D.
Deity
Says right at the top of the spoiler: Traits, T3 with CON4 and NRG4.
Right, missed it. I'll try and get a more balanced fleet put together on Wednesday; I'm leaning to taking two of the three, so particle/laser or laser/missile to keep it different from your own.
I'll also put together something for the ship challenge.
I'll also put together something for the ship challenge.
Symphony D.
Deity
Q: Roughly what sort of Twist Drive IS Ratings do Blue and Orange lines on the High Energy Transcend Traverses map correspond to?
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
Sorry I haven't been posting much, been moving house.
Due to light speed lag, int buffs during combat only work if the command ship is in the same engagement. Ditto for pusher ships speed bonus during combat. FTL comms is extremely low bandwidth - you're essentially sending an SMS per week.
The fleet int bonus during the movement phase (i.e. determining the order that ships can arrive at the target planet, and if they get to preform actions before an enemy can engage them) is system wide, as is the pusher bonus.
On the long range jumps I was going to see what the final ship designer looked like so I could scale the difficulty to the cost of producing a given IS output. I was thinking the thick blue lines would be IS 5, the thinner ones 15, and the orange ones 45, but that might change.
Due to light speed lag, int buffs during combat only work if the command ship is in the same engagement. Ditto for pusher ships speed bonus during combat. FTL comms is extremely low bandwidth - you're essentially sending an SMS per week.
The fleet int bonus during the movement phase (i.e. determining the order that ships can arrive at the target planet, and if they get to preform actions before an enemy can engage them) is system wide, as is the pusher bonus.
On the long range jumps I was going to see what the final ship designer looked like so I could scale the difficulty to the cost of producing a given IS output. I was thinking the thick blue lines would be IS 5, the thinner ones 15, and the orange ones 45, but that might change.
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
Also with EW Vulnerability - EWV isn't a measure of how likely a ship is to lose EW rolls, its just how bad the stuff that will happen is if they do lose them. The Hornet has good Int and Jamming and a non-terribad EW score, its not going to just fold to any EW attack.
I'll look into the Excel 2003 issue, in the meantime have you considered using OpenOffice? They convert from Excel pretty well.
I'll look into the Excel 2003 issue, in the meantime have you considered using OpenOffice? They convert from Excel pretty well.
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