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PreSLNES I: Masters of Ethereal
- Thread starter Starlife
- Start date
Hi, I have a few technical questions.
-What's the duration of one turn going to be?
-Do the units have to be public initially? I think of a unit whose ability isn't obvious and who would be way better if it came as a surprise than if people planned for it. It's basically a unit with a very precise magic ability.
Same for spells, actually. Does a researched spell that has never been cast have to be public?
Regarding magic:
-Can spells be cast only by the Wizard, or can they be cast by, say, warlocks or other units remotely?
-Is there a limit to the number of spells cast per turn or are they cast instantly?
-What about magic items? Can items be forged? I guess for units, precising a magic trait would fill that role, but what about powerful artefacts or equipment built to re-equip a unit for a specific purpose (say I know my enemy uses fire elementals and I want to equip my swordsmen unit with magic ice swords)?
-What's the duration of one turn going to be?
-Do the units have to be public initially? I think of a unit whose ability isn't obvious and who would be way better if it came as a surprise than if people planned for it. It's basically a unit with a very precise magic ability.
Same for spells, actually. Does a researched spell that has never been cast have to be public?
Regarding magic:
-Can spells be cast only by the Wizard, or can they be cast by, say, warlocks or other units remotely?
-Is there a limit to the number of spells cast per turn or are they cast instantly?
-What about magic items? Can items be forged? I guess for units, precising a magic trait would fill that role, but what about powerful artefacts or equipment built to re-equip a unit for a specific purpose (say I know my enemy uses fire elementals and I want to equip my swordsmen unit with magic ice swords)?
Immaculate
unerring
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Seon; look at your math a bit.
Seon
Not An Evil Liar
Thanks for catching that- I forgot to change that when I edited the unit description
Starlife
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Excellent questions, LDi.
I haven't decided and I'm open to suggestions. Again, since this is my first completely self-created NES, I have been thinking deeply about all issues. I don't want it to be a ridiculous amount of time, but enough to where borders would expand a little bit each turn.
This is a good point. But there are a few things: 1. Each Wizard has a seeing eye. While you don't know exact troop movements or anything, I think it is reasonable that you would know what kind of troops your opponents/allies have - and perhaps you can sense through the mana stream what spells your opponents/allies have, as well.
That would basically be my justification. For me, though, having them private would be stress on me. I'd have to sort through which units are public or private, and it might be a hassle for me.
Only by the Wizard. Other magic is weaker in comparison.
Originally I had written:
Mage Level: 3 spells cast per turn
Archmage Level: 6 spells cast per turn
Demigod Level: 10 spells cast per turn
But, then I thought that mana will dictate how many spells. I don't like setting a limit to spell #s cast, because some spells are weaker - others are stronger. I think you can drain your mana supply all you want in a turn. You are only limited to how much mana you receive per turn.
Another thing I was thinking, to simulate a limit, is to prevent players from "stocking up" on mana - so basically, the mana you do not use is wasted. Thoughts on this are welcome.
Simulated by spells. Magic items would be a unit enchantment, as you said.
However, I would eventually allow for ruins to be explored and for perhaps new traits to become available to your units (for example, a Sword of Ice).
I haven't decided and I'm open to suggestions. Again, since this is my first completely self-created NES, I have been thinking deeply about all issues. I don't want it to be a ridiculous amount of time, but enough to where borders would expand a little bit each turn.
This is a good point. But there are a few things: 1. Each Wizard has a seeing eye. While you don't know exact troop movements or anything, I think it is reasonable that you would know what kind of troops your opponents/allies have - and perhaps you can sense through the mana stream what spells your opponents/allies have, as well.
That would basically be my justification. For me, though, having them private would be stress on me. I'd have to sort through which units are public or private, and it might be a hassle for me.
Only by the Wizard. Other magic is weaker in comparison.
Originally I had written:
Mage Level: 3 spells cast per turn
Archmage Level: 6 spells cast per turn
Demigod Level: 10 spells cast per turn
But, then I thought that mana will dictate how many spells. I don't like setting a limit to spell #s cast, because some spells are weaker - others are stronger. I think you can drain your mana supply all you want in a turn. You are only limited to how much mana you receive per turn.
Another thing I was thinking, to simulate a limit, is to prevent players from "stocking up" on mana - so basically, the mana you do not use is wasted. Thoughts on this are welcome.
Simulated by spells. Magic items would be a unit enchantment, as you said.
However, I would eventually allow for ruins to be explored and for perhaps new traits to become available to your units (for example, a Sword of Ice).
Starlife
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I have temporarily eliminated Mana Channeling rules. I kind of want to force players to seek out new mana resources instead of sitting pretty, twiddling their thumbs.
Also, I really do want to add a clause about Magical Items, as LDi mentioned. I think including them as traits is nice.
For example:
Under the Weapons section of unit, if you discover a cache or "recipe" of "Ice Swords", you could include Ice Swords in your Magical Items listing.
also
If you conquer a castle, that castle might have a unique trait included with it, that can ship to the rest of your kingdom for recruitment. Example: You conquer a castle with an Amulet of Fire: you can now include the Amulet of Fire trait with a newly designed unit (remember, you would have to design a whole new unit, meaning the old one would have to be disbanded). The Amulet of Fire would be 5 gold to put into a unit, but gives it Fire Resistance.
And so on.
Also, I really do want to add a clause about Magical Items, as LDi mentioned. I think including them as traits is nice.
For example:
Under the Weapons section of unit, if you discover a cache or "recipe" of "Ice Swords", you could include Ice Swords in your Magical Items listing.
also
If you conquer a castle, that castle might have a unique trait included with it, that can ship to the rest of your kingdom for recruitment. Example: You conquer a castle with an Amulet of Fire: you can now include the Amulet of Fire trait with a newly designed unit (remember, you would have to design a whole new unit, meaning the old one would have to be disbanded). The Amulet of Fire would be 5 gold to put into a unit, but gives it Fire Resistance.
And so on.
Shadowbound
Incorrugible
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There should be a link between mana and the magic attached to units. The racial advantages also need to be looked at, as giving every single Dark Elf unit Skilled Magic for free seems a little ridiculous. A small but universal bonus, such as making races more effective in their home environments, may be better.
Starlife
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I think it is rather balanced, actually. Dark Elves may get Skilled Magic for free, but they have to pay for everything else. You could amass cheap units with Skilled Magic, but they would have weak armor and slow movement.
Every race has its advantage that adds up to 20 gold worth of traits. I went through it several times, and I truly think it is balanced and not ridiculous at all.
I don't want to do the whole "making Elves good at fighting in forests" thing be their trait. That is a given. Elves are good at fighting in forests. They know their homeland well. And so on. I don't want to make that a cumbersome statistical clause. I feel like if you can command your troops well and make decent orders, you will fight well. My racial advantages now are more practical. They say, "Hey if you are a Barbarian, you get free swords and axes..." It makes perfect sense to me to have Barbarians swinging tons of heavy weapons in massive numbers, while Dark Elves have some powerful magical units.
As for linking mana and magical units: It makes sense, though it might over-complicate things. Other thoughts are welcome. Perhaps the 3 areas of Magic for units should also cost Mana to train and maintain...
Here are magical items so far:
Spoiler :
I'd really like more thoughts on what I said earlier about making Mana so that it cannot be stocked, but dissipates and regenerates every turn (so you can't stockpile it).
Also, for those of you who posted something but haven't officially signed up: I need to know if you'll play. I know that sounds weird, but I'm working on the map, and the sooner I know how many people are in, the faster I can finish my map design.
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Will do. How do I calculate maintenance? Half the cost of the unit like Seon?
Starlife
de la terre à la lune
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Woops, sorry. Yes it is always half the cost.
Starlife
de la terre à la lune
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Ok folks, for MAGIC UNITS, I have changed something - so for those of you who have posted profiles already, please note this change and alter your Unit Descriptions accordingly:
@Immaculate: Just saw your edited post. Looks awesome.
Spoiler :
@Immaculate: Just saw your edited post. Looks awesome.
Regarding mana storage:
If you make mana fizzle if unused, you achieve 2 things:
1) Players will tend to use all their mana every turn in order not to lose stuff, which will favor spells which can be cast every turn for an effect instead of more expensive, situational spells. Summons and enchantments with a maintenance cost willl therefore become more likely than one-time spells like earthquakes or flames from the sky (since these are usually a one-time affair, unless you plan to be at war absolutely all the time).
2) You allow players to easily cripple and defeat opponents by cutting off their mana sources. This makes ambushes/sneak attacks/alpha strikes far more efficient than otherwise.
I'd rather allow mana to be turned from raw power into cristals which can be stored:
You can either use the mana generated this turn to cast a spell, or waste it, or turn it into a cristal. Turning mana into a cristal is expensive, but the cristal can be traded and kept. 2 mana would be needed to generate 1 cristal, and 1 cristal can be turned into 1 mana.
This way players have a choice: Either they spend their mana now, or they store it for later, but at a cost.
If you make mana fizzle if unused, you achieve 2 things:
1) Players will tend to use all their mana every turn in order not to lose stuff, which will favor spells which can be cast every turn for an effect instead of more expensive, situational spells. Summons and enchantments with a maintenance cost willl therefore become more likely than one-time spells like earthquakes or flames from the sky (since these are usually a one-time affair, unless you plan to be at war absolutely all the time).
2) You allow players to easily cripple and defeat opponents by cutting off their mana sources. This makes ambushes/sneak attacks/alpha strikes far more efficient than otherwise.
I'd rather allow mana to be turned from raw power into cristals which can be stored:
You can either use the mana generated this turn to cast a spell, or waste it, or turn it into a cristal. Turning mana into a cristal is expensive, but the cristal can be traded and kept. 2 mana would be needed to generate 1 cristal, and 1 cristal can be turned into 1 mana.
This way players have a choice: Either they spend their mana now, or they store it for later, but at a cost.
Starlife
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This is an excellent idea, LDi. I will implement it, or something like it.
Immaculate
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What will you do for naval units? Should we try to design one if we want to be able to sail?
And my design is done (no back-story yet though- want to see map first)
And my design is done (no back-story yet though- want to see map first)
I disagree. Here's a short game theory analysis of the advantages. and yes, I know that people don't necessarily want to maximize their assets, but that's not a reason in my opinion to provide vastly unbalanced systems.
So. You can get free pikes. IF you want heavy armor, which is not for all units, then it's cheaper. IF you want heavy cavalry, it's cheaper. If you want some archers, includign ligth cavalry, they get zero bonus. This is basically good to build paladins, but very specialised and not versatile. Rather weak.
Means all units can have leather, shield, sword. It won't help heavily armored units or ranged units, but swords as a backup for archers is nifty. Most units, but not all, will benefit from it. Strong.
For skilled magic units, this is nice if you wanted a magic-strong unit. Longbows are useful only for archers, but you could double all your melee units as archers. Average.
Absolutely all units but elite magic units will get that. All of them with no exception. Overpowered, since ALL units get a 20 gold discount. Compare to high man archers and laugh.
A bit like high men. Weak.
To benefit from all of these, you need to mass a lot of crappy traits on a single unit. Not overwhelming, but versatile enough. Average.
Compare to dark elves and weep. You'd have to pay a lot in order to get a good armor. You can't have good cheap troops, contrary to, well, almost every other race.
So specialised that it's mostly useless. The Chainmail 4 is nice, but the flying combatant is too expensive to be used on all units, so most of the gains will be used on only 1 unit out of 3 possible designs.
All units will be mounted on wolves, which is fun but a bit exaggerated. Axes are nice btu not all units would use them. Strong.
Centaurs everywhere. Why would you design a minotaur when you can have a free mount? See high elves.
I'd propose a system where the TOTAL advantages gained from the race choice for ALL the designs is 60 gold (probably less), and these must be picked from a list that can gain advantages.
This is because any dark elf palyer will get a 60 gold discount overall for his 3 units, while an orc player designing an archer, an infantry and a cavalry will likely get at most a 24 gold or 28 discount, and therefore be screwed badly, despite remaining totally in-character.
EDIT: If magic require mana to acquire/maintain, what about the bonus? Do dark elves pay 0 mana and 0 maintenance in addition to 0 gold, or 20 mana and 10 mana upkeep in addition to 0 gold?
Omega124
Challenging Fate
The Inferno Crusade/Omega
Race: Orcs
Citadel: Burning Tower
Government: Theocratic Democracy
Spellbook:
Mana (50 per turn / 100 coffer)
Gold (??? per turn / 200 in coffer):.
Castles:
Cities:
Towns:
Units:
Race: Orcs
Citadel: Burning Tower
Government: Theocratic Democracy
Spellbook:
Spoiler Summon Flying Imp Portal :
Mana (50 per turn / 100 coffer)
Gold (??? per turn / 200 in coffer):.
Castles:
Cities:
Towns:
Units:
Spoiler Orcish Wyvern Riders :
Spoiler Inferno Longbowman :
Spoiler Crusader Knight :
Spoiler Men-At-Arms :
Starlife
de la terre à la lune
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Sailing will be important. I will include Naval Units and Siege Weaponry in the traits list. You can then attach that trait to a unit that you want to sail for the added price of the boat. Naval traits can be attached and detached all you want to specific units - they don't have to be ingrained in your unit's design. But to sail the boat, you must have a unit attached to the boat. Boats can be stored on the coast of your kingdom, and they have to be maintained even if they are not being used by a unit.
Naval
Coastal (fishing boats, large canoes, and so on): 10
Longships: 30
Galleys: 50
Cogs: 70
Caravels: 100
Carracks: 150
(This will be added to the rules shortly.)
Question: Do you all think siege weapons should work in the same way Naval units work, in that they can be attached/detached from units and stored - or should I require players to design specific units if they want siege capabilities?
Seon
Not An Evil Liar
Yes...I think I can agree with LDi that some nerfing of some races and adding bonuses to some races is in order 
Vertinari118
Deity
How would having one hundred dragon riders be underpowered? Notice the Beastmen have non-combat mounts so that's a pretty strange centaur. Netheryl is the polar opposite of magic. Halflings would become immune to the dark elves advantage, though it is fairly pricey. High men gives you powerful infantry and cavalry. Notice all combat cavalry are discounted and heavy armour for all infantry, cavalry and even archers (think Gondor) is discounted. Heavy infantry hold the line while cavalry flank is a standard battle model used for hundreds of years, because it worked. Dwarves are perfect for defending their mountain homes, were large weapons are impractical. Able to penetrate armour with ease, whilst being heavily armoured themselves. Dark elves is quite strong so one would have to rely on the dark elven players not metagaming but one hundred elves with magic would fall beneath ten thousand goblins with their 'crappy' equipment. Also magic, unless done very creatively, is not necessarily the be all and end all. Finally all dark elven units cost 20 mana to recruit and 10 mana to maintain. That would add up to a huge sum of mana per turn to have a decent-sized army. Barbarians are armour busters who would die instantly in a cavalry charge.
In short be more creative; play with the advantages you have. Trust other players and the mod to not metagame and prevent metagaming.
Yes Starlife, don't go overboard with unit designs. Keep boats and siege weapons simple, they never were a big part of most fantasy, except the done to death Dwarven Cannon. The armies will be unique enough as it is.
In short be more creative; play with the advantages you have. Trust other players and the mod to not metagame and prevent metagaming.
Yes Starlife, don't go overboard with unit designs. Keep boats and siege weapons simple, they never were a big part of most fantasy, except the done to death Dwarven Cannon. The armies will be unique enough as it is.
Starlife
de la terre à la lune
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Why does this issue keep coming up, where gold = power? It does not! Just because Dark Elves for sure get -20 gold to their units, doesn't mean squat. They still have to pay the mana upkeep for that, after all.
Mount OR Movement. You can design a Minotaur, and it will have the same movement as a mounted unit. Beastmen units get the movement for free. Use your imagination.
See above. You are placing way too much emphasis on gold = power. Dark Elves get the free magic, yes. They also have to pay mana upkeep and mana cost for those units. And, even though they have the free magic, they pay for everything else. If they want any form of armor, they pay for it. If they want any weapons, they pay for it.
If there is such an issue with Dark Elves having that, I could make them more like Elves and the problem is solved.
The point of this is not for each race to necessarily be equal in such simple terms as gold and power. It is that each race has a unique advantage that can be used, or not used, in certain situations. It is up to you to use it in an imaginative way. This isn't Warhammer or something.
Mount OR Movement. You can design a Minotaur, and it will have the same movement as a mounted unit. Beastmen units get the movement for free. Use your imagination.
See above. You are placing way too much emphasis on gold = power. Dark Elves get the free magic, yes. They also have to pay mana upkeep and mana cost for those units. And, even though they have the free magic, they pay for everything else. If they want any form of armor, they pay for it. If they want any weapons, they pay for it.
If there is such an issue with Dark Elves having that, I could make them more like Elves and the problem is solved.
The point of this is not for each race to necessarily be equal in such simple terms as gold and power. It is that each race has a unique advantage that can be used, or not used, in certain situations. It is up to you to use it in an imaginative way. This isn't Warhammer or something.
