PreSLNES I: Masters of Ethereal

[nutranurse]

If I understand, heroes would be characters with some background that provide bonuses for a pay.
I don't like the military divisions as you describe them. I propose a slight change, giving an example of a real general for each:

Seasoned General (would improve morale/organization of troops - perhaps upping their quality) - this one I am ok with (example: McClellan - created an awesome army, built up its moreal, but was unable to use it)

Striker and Defender (would focus on the attacks and defense of your troops respectively) - these don't make much sense to me. Attack and defense of a troop are something that I don't understand except as game mechanics. A general good at dealing in respectively attacks or defensive positions I could understand, but then many open field (antiquity/medieval) battles weren't one army attacking and one defending but both attacking each other.

I'd rather have generals for field and siege.
Field generals are able to appraise tactical situations and seize opportunities at the exact right moment, thus giving an overall bonus in open-field battles.
Example for field general: Davout. Was his victory at Auerstadt due to a better attack? Considering he got about the same proportion of losses as his enemy, I'm not sure.
Siege general provide bonuses to attack or defend fortresses. I'll remind everyone that castles and sieges were very important in medieval times.
Example for siege general: Vauban (or maybe Michelozzo in defense for the walls of Dubrovnic).

I agree w/ LDI in changing the categories from Cavalry/Infantry/blahblah to Striker/Defender & Field/Siege types. This way Commander-Heroes are not restricted to one kind of unit.

As for how to get heroes... eh, a raffle seems to.... gamey. I would introduce heroes into the gave via big events/in the middle of other players' events. Think what happened in my attempts to conquer Redtear. Once they're introduced these heroes can be contacted as per norm for any NPC and players can bargain with the NPC (I would say it's best to bargain via PM's that way players cannot OOCly know who else is competing for the hero's favor/what they are offering). Heroes should have their own rather minor aims. Something simple, you could even put it into categories like:

Brave--Heroes that like to serve paragons of virtue (what those virtues are/how they are perceived is in the eyes of that hero. An evil hero can be 'brave' in that he would favor a mighty empire that is not afraid to cull the weak.)

Ambitious--Heroes that are out to gain status for themselves. They probably would serve the empire/wizard that they see aiding their longterm goal of establishing a NPC town/fort/w.e

Greedy--Loves wealth in all its forms. They probably would serve the empire that provides them the largest chances for loot or highest pay.

Inquisitive--Serves a wizard to learn from them/increase their own knowledge of the world. These are perhaps the flightiest of heroes because they will not hesitate to leave a wizard once they have learned whatever it is that they wanted to learn. Not all are sagely-types, adventurers adventuring for the sake of adventure and mercenary commanders seeking to better their knowledge of tactics also fit into this category.


It would even be better not let the player know which trait(s) the hero in question falls under, giving them just backstory and the hero's actions to base approaches off of.

 

[Terrance888]

Maybe do that, and have various traits? So on your hidden spreadsheet of doom, you can have:

Wrentas the Slight, Field General, Puppetmaster, Devious, OCD.
Warren the Wall, Seasoned General, Comrade, Wary, Tired
ect. So you have their main goals, and some short character traits to base their actions off of. For example, Wrentas would more likely operate through numerous marshals, and will write intricate plans detailing actions and reactions. Warren, however, would fight near the front of the battle to see it first hand. He would also be more cautious.

 

[Starlife]

I want to avoid character personality stereotypes at all costs, if possible. I understand that some heroes will inevitably feel more comfortable working with some kingdoms over others - but I want them to be complicated individuals and not mindless drones. To me, calling a character 'Brave' and 'Greedy' is also kind of gamey. I think a perfectly brave man can also be a very greedy one.

I was planning on treating heroes as NPCs, in that kingdoms can contact them and ask what they are looking for or even ask for their services. I was also going to introduce them via stories. That is great.

The raffle thing was not to be an IC thing, but more an OOC thing - a random selector at everyone's starting hero (only the starting hero - not following ones) so one player doesn't unfairly have a more powerful hero than another player. But it would be pointless for those players who already have heroes developing in their stories/orders. So I'll nix this idea, in hopes it will encourage such developments.

My problem with designating Infantry/Cavalry/Siege is that many players in this game have made their UUs single individuals or nothing to do with Infantry, Cavalry, and Siege. I would rather have more broad heroes in terms of those categories, which I can then specify per hero. For example, a Striker is simply a really badass warrior that can kill lots of foes in battle and inspire others to kill. A Defender would be more of a paladin type that focuses on playing it safe and saving lives, but still accomplishing the mission at hand. A Striker could also be an adept archer, a Defender could also be a medic of some sort. So basically, I wasn't envisioning these two heroes as generals. I was viewing them more as really powerful... well... heroes... that attack stuff in battle.

But I don't really like that system, either - for the military heroes. So I don't like labeling them as Infantry and Cavalry, and I don't like labeling them as Striker and Defender.

However, LDi, you said something about calling one hero a Field General. This is acceptable to me, but then we still don't have actual heroes that get engaged in battle. It doesn't make sense for a Field General to help out, say, one of Massive Attack's Doppelgangers or one of your Bards. But then again, that just means you wouldn't hire that unit, so I suppose it is okay.

The short response to all of this is that I am leaning towards Field and Siege General, as LDi has recommended. I like how they are somewhat vague, and how they don't standardize people's armies.

Any comments on Magic and Domestic heroes?

EDIT: I'd still like a vague hero who actually engages in battle - unless you all were thinking Field Generals could. And by the way, I was thinking Field Generals come in many shapes and sizes, which then gets into infantry, cavalry, etc., and more specifics.

 

[nutranurse]

Well Domestic heroes can lose the 'heroes' moniker and just be called Brilliant Aids or something. They're for from heroes in the sense we seem to be talking about. Magical heroes seem to be the actual heroes akin to adventurers--people with higher than average across the board skills and regularly do miraculous feats. Perhaps limit actual 'heroes' to magicy types? The other two categories (Military & Domestic) can be covered fairly separately as static Brilliant Strategists/Aides/whatever.

Lemme see if you're on #NES so I can explain in depth... Bah, you're not there.

Alright. Heroes in the sense of people who wander around doing crazy feats, people who are one man armies, people who are awesome incarnate, seems to be well out of the hands of a dude who can use a sword very well. In this high-magic setting it would seem much more reasonable to limit the actual 'Hero' tag to lesser magicians/specialized magicians who actually can do miraculous feats that are on vaguely on par with a wizard's ability to give cancer to a whole kingdom. I'm not saying Heroes are to be as powerful as wizards.

So where am I going with this? Well we can easily have 'kingdom boosting aids' in the form of Strategists/Aides. Actual adventuring sociopaths that we commonly call heroes can be the different breed they need to be and not be tied to any one kingdom. I am very very very very keen on advocating for the difficultly to permanently bond a hero to a player, why? Because it 1) Makes the game fair 2) Makes turning a hero into an awesometank a challenging, but worthy endeavor and 3) It is much more permissible to have such a powerful being because the powerful being was hard fought for.

I can go on and on and on, but let me stop here so you can pose questions or denounce me outright

 

[Starlife]

Well Domestic heroes can lose the 'heroes' moniker and just be called Brilliant Aids or something. They're for from heroes in the sense we seem to be talking about. Magical heroes seem to be the actual heroes akin to adventurers--people with higher than average across the board skills and regularly do miraculous feats. Perhaps limit actual 'heroes' to magicy types? The other two categories (Military & Domestic) can be covered fairly separately as static Brilliant Strategists/Aids/whatever.

Lemme see if you're on #NES so I can explain in depth...

That's why I was considering the word Legend. But that is too easily confused with a legend, i.e. the Legend of Milky Toes.

The thing is, it is hard to label military 'heroes' as strategists and generals because I was thinking there could be a type of military hero who is on the ground fighting alongside the troops - like a legendary swordsman.

 

[Terrance888]

The Legendary Lord, who has subdued Afghanistan, formerly called the Graveyard of Empires, for his Wizard.

The Seasoned Warrior, rallied the wearly souls for one last charge at the legendary battle of doom.

The Legendary Cleric of the Mother, who has cured the land of famine and brough happiness to those who have suffered from the scars of war.

Instead of Legends, just put the Legendary, Worthy of Legend, Almost Mythical, Amazing and such. Legendary Mages can match Wizards in a few aspects (i.e, as good at attacking, greater than expert-level magic). Mythical warriors can rout armies 'alone'. Statesmen do the impossible.

Ethereal is not just a world of Wizards, but also a world of Legendary Heros. They wander for many goals, but everywhere they step the world stirs and watches, wondering what they will do next.

 

[Starlife]

Thanks Terrance. Yeah. That is sexy. Anyway. I think I've got this. We'll just avoid nomenclature!

 

[LDiCesare]

I'm pretty seriously against the idea of heroes fighting on the battlefield.
A blood moon champion, gorgon mistress, would certainly wreak havok on a battlefield. They might not stand against an army of opponents, but they would behave about as well as a hero would. For this reason, a front-line fighter (or even an archer) hero would, in my opinion, be redundant with units.
What would happen if such a hero fought a single unit?
If someone designs for instance a single archer unit to replace a fort unit, how would it compare to this kind of champion?
What kind of hero are we talking about?
Between Heracles and Iolas, which one is the hero we are talking about? If a blood moon champion is Heracles, a hero like Iolas can help him defeat the Lernae hydra. If a hero is as powerful as Heracles, then some units are a bit moot. Or are military heroes the likes Joan of Arc or Arnold Wilkenried, who can turn the tide of battles, maybe losing their lives in the process?

 

[Starlife]

I'm pretty seriously against the idea of heroes fighting on the battlefield.
A blood moon champion, gorgon mistress, would certainly wreak havok on a battlefield. They might not stand against an army of opponents, but they would behave about as well as a hero would. For this reason, a front-line fighter (or even an archer) hero would, in my opinion, be redundant with units.
What would happen if such a hero fought a single unit?
If someone designs for instance a single archer unit to replace a fort unit, how would it compare to this kind of champion?
What kind of hero are we talking about?
Between Heracles and Iolas, which one is the hero we are talking about? If a blood moon champion is Heracles, a hero like Iolas can help him defeat the Lernae hydra. If a hero is as powerful as Heracles, then some units are a bit moot. Or are military heroes the likes Joan of Arc or Arnold Wilkenried, who can turn the tide of battles, maybe losing their lives in the process?

Yeah, LDi. That's why we decided to not have that kind of hero.

But it equally doesn't make sense to have a Field General commanding a single bard or a doppelganger. So that just means, as I said before, you'll have to select wisely what kind of hero you want to hire if they make themselves available to you.

For nomenclature:

Legendary...
Military = Strategists/Generals
Magic = Ardents, Mages, and the like
Domestic = Adviser/Aids

This is to differentiate between, say, a Blood Moon Champion and a Bard from Legendary _____. I feel RMC and Bard and Gorgon Mistress etc. are better use of the word 'hero'.

 

[Terrance888]

When they die, they should get a write up of their awesomeness.

I think these "Legendary People" are to be independent plot points that are catalysts for change and thus are remembered. They would be like Great People in Civilization+ the Archmage types from FFH. They change the course of history, their choices cut through Fate's path, their character influences dozens, hundreds, thousands.

Therefore, they have something they are best known for, but they have other subtle traits as well. Instead of having a set name, just say that they became reknown in a skirmish to defend a town, an ambush, for rediscovering channeled magic in a region, for saving their homeland with diplomacy, or strategy, or loyalty. Then they begin to unroot to find more of their specialty.

Instead of calling a fightingman, a Seasoned General, a Field General/Seige general. have a more general name (lol) like the Charismatic Warrior, the Fate Tactician and such less definitive names that showcases what they are best known for, but not anything else they are good at.You may use a Charismatic Warrior as a general, but you may also use him to recruit armies instead of leading them. The Tactician might be used at the frontlines of a skirmish leading victories company by company, or to be held behind a bit to focus on whole battles. Legendary people are not just defined by what they are good at, but how they are used. I think this kind of fluid usage is more suitible for Starlife's fluid rulesets so far.

BTW, when I said to have some traits, I also said to keep them to yourselves. Their responses to other players will slowly reveal their character. The thing with traits is to just flesh them out a bit, and the Player can work with the Legendary People while they are hired.

 

[Starlife]

Terrance: I have already said that each Legendary Person will have a story and certain desires that are unknown to the player.

As for the fluidity of characters: That is also sort of what was decided recently in #NES, if for no other reason than to keep this game manageable to moderate.

 

[Terrance888]

I am so excited! Waiting for a post of NPC heros! A tavern where stories are being traded of powerful beings that rival wizards? A newspaper of some sort?

Story time! (for me!)

 

[Starlife]

I am so excited! Waiting for a post of NPC heros! A tavern where stories are being traded of powerful beings that rival wizards? A newspaper of some sort?

Story time! (for me!)

I would love to have a tavern or several taverns - but I want to unveil the characters during the next update, and introduce them at proper times during the storyline. How is this for just an example:

Spoiler :

Ravas the Banished Artificer / / 75 gold per turn
Ravas is a Barbarian who left his home long ago during the destruction of his village to live among the Orcs of Yalek. There he learned Yalek's ancient craft of stone engravings and became an artisan. Over the years, it became clear that Ravas had other talents. At a young age, his stone engravings became the talk of Yalek, emanating power and glory and overtaking all other master artisans. The Orcs of Yalek branded Ravas a 'freak' of sorts, as they maintained a rather closed society at the time. Banished from the city he admired and loved, Ravas traveled back to his homeland to unravel more of his past by searching ruins and asking refugees. There he discovered he came from a brilliant line of artifact craftsmen, ancient mages of the past who thrived long ago in his village. Yet he also discovered he is the last of his family line...

So an Artificer is one who can create magical items. This much we know. There are two hard-coded game mechanics here: 'ranking' and 'hire': This Legendary Person must receive 75 gold per turn to continue being hired. His ranking is three stars. is one-star, which is the lowest, and is five stars, which is the highest.

Other than that, what he wants and more of his background specifics are left vague. This is the type of stuff you would get from him if you sat in a tavern drinking with him for a couple hours. Nothing more.

How you use this Legendary Person would depend on what you want to use him for and how much mana you give him to work with (and perhaps extra gold, too?). His effectiveness, meaning the outcome of his actions, is dependent on his ranking. There is no direct correlation between gold cost and ranking - some high-ranked people may cost little, and vice versa.

So what I need to know is:

1. Is the ranking system pointless?

2. I don't want to use stars. I'd rather use descriptive words, from 1-5. Any suggestions? My brain feels fuzzy.

I am sorry to go all KISS on this concept. But it will be easier for me to handle and will allow a less gamey feel for you all. It will also, just like the rest of this NES, be really dependent on how cleverly/specifically/clearly you use that element in your orders.

 

[Terrance888]

1. Is the Ranking system real, or just a brief overview of how reknown he is for his accomplishments? Can a rank two be better than rank four, just less easily appreciated? If it is a hard rank, then no, but if it is a soft ranking system, then yeah.

3. Hard ranking system:
Powerful-Expert-Master-Legendary-Mythical
Soft Ranking System
Local Reknown-Regional Reknown-Worldwide Reknown-Idol/Paragon-Legendary/Mythical

The Powerful mage is known locally for his above average strength in irrigation, but he yearns for more.
The Master Statemen only had regional re known, for his first advocate was weak, and had too many enemies for him to save. ect. Just a suggestion.

 

[Starlife]

Hm, Terrance. I like your reputation idea. Perhaps that is better. It will be a soft thing - in which more famous people have more experience or something (and are obviously well-known). That will still make it open to your own designs, and it will explain whether or not another kingdom knows who is in your hire or not.

 

[Starlife]

P e r s o n a g e s
Many talents assisted the old empires in their rise to glory. Finding those talents and keeping them was the challenge.
- Scholar Endi Xaldred, author of Legends of the Old Empires​

Spoiler :

Each realm is entitled to hire special personages who will assist your kingdom in a variety of ways.

Personage Types

Personages have three very basic, vague categories:

Military
Magic
Domestic

Within these three categories there are several different branches. Not all of them can be listed, as new ones will be introduced throughout the game. Each Personage will have one of these three categories listed. Then, based on that Personage's unique description, you will be able to learn a bit more about the specialty of that Personage.

Please keep in mind that despite the existence of these categories, there are definitely situations in which they can cross over. For example, perhaps you order an artificer to enchant some of the stone used in roads, thus giving him/her a domestic task. Or perhaps you order a general to figure out a way to get troops to move faster through your kingdom, rather than focusing that general on the battlefield. Whatever the case may be, paying attention the description of a Personage is extremely important to know that Personage's potential talents and uses. Categories represent the type of experience that Personage has had in the past, and provides a brief overlook at what area of your realm the Personage might be able to provide assistance to.

An Example

Here is an example profile of a Personage:

Spoiler :

Ravas the Banished Artificer / Magic / Regional / 60 gold per turn
Ravas is a Barbarian who left his home long ago during the destruction of his village to live among the Orcs of Yalek. There he learned Yalek's ancient craft of stone engravings and became an artisan. Over the years, it became clear that Ravas had other talents. At a young age, his stone engravings became the talk of Yalek, emanating power and glory and overtaking all other master artisans. The Orcs of Yalek branded Ravas a 'freak' of sorts, as they maintained a rather closed society at the time. Banished from the city he admired and loved, Ravas traveled back to his homeland to unravel more of his past by searching ruins and asking refugees. There he discovered he came from a brilliant line of artifact craftsmen, ancient mages of the past who thrived long ago in his village. Yet he also discovered he is the last of his family line...

There are five aspects to each Personage Profile:

Personage Name & Title / Type / Renown / cost to hire per turn
Description.

Personage Name & Title is the Personage's name, plus a certain moniker that is attached to that name. Often you can discover the vague use of that Personage through their title.

Type is the broad classification given to that Personage (Military, Magic, or Domestic).

Renown is how well-known the Personage is. This indicates how well other realms and characters know your Personage. Have they heard of this Personage or not? It also, in some ways, indicates that Personages skill level. However, this is not set in stone. There can be rather unknown Personages who have not shown their full worth yet, or perhaps they are powerful hermits. This is more a descriptive element to show how much renown your own kingdom has in its ability to hire certain Personages. You might also find that 'Mythical' Personages are overrated. There are five categories of renown:
- Local
- Regional
- Worldwide
- Paragon
- Mythical

Cost to hire per turn is the amount, in gold, you must pay this Personage for their services. There is no down-payment.

Description is the... description... of the Personage. This is extremely important. From this blurb you will know certain facts or rumors about your Personage. You will get a glimpse into what that Personage's skill set might include and hints at how you might use that Personage effectively. However, these blurbs are also purposefully lacking in other facts, which you can read about below.

Finding A Personage

Ethereal is dotted with useful talents just waiting to be found. There are several ways to discover Personages. First off, in your orders, you can mention that you wish to scout a certain area or visit a certain city. Within that city, you can tell me that you wish to visit a tavern, a public meeting place, a church, or some other area where you think someone of note might be located. The more specific you are, the better. If you go into a tavern just looking for an 'important person', you will not get very far. If you have something specific you are looking for, you might have more success.

Another way to 'find' a Personage is to have a rich story built up about your realm in which it is easy to introduce Personages for you in my updates. Some Personages will be within your own ranks, coming forth because you wrote about them or detailed their actions. When it comes to finding a Personage this way, you should also include something in your orders about that special individual. In a way, you are making your case to me for that person to become a Personage. These important people will not just pop up out of thin air. They must be developed. And even when they do arrive to your realm, there is no way to guarantee you will keep them. For more information on that, continue reading. Please note that I cannot guarantee you will find or receive a Personage based on these factors.

In addition, sometimes Personages will find you.

Using A Personage

It is important to remember that Personages can be used in a variety of ways. When you feel it is necessary, you should include supplemental gold and/or mana to assist the Personage in doing a certain task. There is a lot of freedom here for you to come up with special assignments for that Personage. Based on the character's title, renown, and description, you can ascertain certain strengths or weaknesses that Personage might have. It is important to read this information. If you have a Personage do something that is completely off from what they know how to do, it will end in an angry Personage and poor results. Think out carefully what you want your Personages to do and most importantly indicate to me specifically and clearly what you are having that Personage do.

Skill Level & Effectiveness

How effective is a Personage? This statistic is kept private, but typically I am putting it on a scale from 1-10. The reason it is kept private is because you do not know specifically how effective your Personage is. He/she could have a ton of Renown, and a high reputation around all of Ethereal, but they might not actually be as amazing as you have been told. In addition, a Personage's effectiveness is not static. It can change depending on that Personage's past experiences, and it can change depending on what task the Personage is assigned to do. A Personage can grow and develop just like other characters. This is important to know because if you witnessed a Personage not being very effective in one realm, they could still have a chance to be quite extraordinary in your own realm. Remember once again that Skill Level is not directly related to Renown. They will never be too far from each other, except in rare cases, but Renown is not a good way to judge the actual effectiveness of a Personage. The rare case I speak of (for example) is one in which there is a loud-mouth general who has built up a reputation with his family's wealth, but when it comes to his actual skill he is a piss-poor commander.

Hiring & Goals

Personages require money, and each Personage has certain goals, aims, desires, wants, needs, and so on. There is absolutely no way you can guarantee that a Personage will stay with you. If the Personage does remain with you for several turns, it means you are doing something right. I keep the details of each Personage private, so you do not know whether or not a Personage is flakey and will leave after one turn, or devoted and will stick around. Or you don't know if they will up their hiring price or perhaps even lower it. In this way, Personages are unstable NPC elements.

Some Personages will reject your request based on so-called moral grounds, or for some other reason. Not all of them will like you, even if they originated in your realm. In fact, Personages who originate in your realm could very well go to work for your neighbor and not for you.

Sometimes you will find that a certain Personage is more trouble than he/she is worth. Remember that Personages are highly specialized characters that you are paying money for. You should not waste your money by accepting any and all Personages that cross your path. Choose wisely who you accept to hire. Also, some Personages will know you hired another one, and might hold it against you. Others won't care.

 

[Seon]

Do I get a personage in the form of that potion academic teacher?

 

[Starlife]

Do I get a personage in the form of that potion academic teacher?

You might...

 

[Starlife]

Just want to say here I like SKILORD's story and I especially like all the poetry that is being written. One of my favorite things about Lord of the Rings is the presence of songs. LDi should publish this stuff in a short book called Gwydion's Rhymes.

I myself will bust out some haiku as Vert did at some point in the near future. Perhaps a couple non-rhyme, more free-form poems as well.

And can you guys give me some feedback on Personages? I posted it here first to hear yays and/or nays. My point with changing the system from a clear generalized tight system to a more fluid one is that I want a big part of using Personages to be up to a player's direction. I don't want them to be simple, "This Personage does THIS to your troops." I want them to be a bit more free-form - you know, like real people. Kind of like magical items, too. I give you all magical items, and while I describe their use - the way you use them is entirely up to you. I feel this continues with an ongoing theme in this ruleset: placing the most importance on how resources are used (which just makes sense to me - a bad king will use up resources wastefully, while a more wise king will spend them well).

 

[Terrance888]

Sounds good and reasonable to me.