Preview of the new patch

[Ambassador]

"Re the workboats, maybe they should be modified so that they couldn't leave your borders. That'll fix the Incan Workboat stuff."

That won't be a good idea for all other civs, like Romans, English etc. who depend on this (passing through enemy and not yet claimed territory).

 

[kairob]

In BTS I find that even if you meet the workboat you still get the units in Incan territory. Am I the only one this happens too?

 

[Lone Wolf]

In BTS I find that even if you meet the workboat you still get the units in Incan territory. Am I the only one this happens too?

That depends on where you meet it.

That won't be a good idea for all other civs, like Romans, English etc. who depend on this (passing through enemy and not yet claimed territory).

How exactly do they depend on this?

 

[Ambassador]

Not literally depending, but if you can only sail in own territory it will take some time to get your English workboats to the fish south of Plymouth or a second Roman workboat to Venice...

 

[AnotherPacifist]

OK Rhye, I hate to contradict you. Maybe another advantage of sgrig's mod is that it shows the changes in the same turn (i.e. if you found a city or liberate one, the expansion stability changes right away), whereas if I remember right in yours it only changes the next turn, so you can't tell what your action is going to do to your stability the next turn.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Fish south of Plymouth? You'll still need for your culture on a tile to build a fishing net on it.

Point about Venice taken, through.

 

[onedreamer]

what he meant is that initially France will culturally own La Manche so you will have to send the workboat north, around Scotland. But I still think that limiting workboats to your own borders is a due action, since they are clearly not intended to explore. The "improvment" the AI received in BtS to this regard come from players, and is the kind of exploit I tend to frown upon.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

what he meant is that initially France will culturally own La Manche so you will have to send the workboat north, around Scotland. But I still think that limiting workboats to your own borders is a due action, since they are clearly not intended to explore. The "improvment" the AI received in BtS to this regard come from players, and is the kind of exploit I tend to frown upon.

Workboats can go into ocean after astronomy, so what's wrong with them exploring? They are inferior explorers because of their movement, but if you really are pressed for time to explore, I don't see why you should outlaw them. (I don't use them for that purpose except as the Native Americans)

Ever heard of yacht sailing for pleasure, not for war?

 

[onedreamer]

because they have str 0 and are available before Sailing. Yachts (which aren't fishing boats btw) aren't ships used for exploration. I wouldnt really care of this stuff if not for the mesoamerican civs, so maybe compass could enable fishing boats outside borders.

 

[Rhye]

OK Rhye, I hate to contradict you. Maybe another advantage of sgrig's mod is that it shows the changes in the same turn (i.e. if you found a city or liberate one, the expansion stability changes right away), whereas if I remember right in yours it only changes the next turn, so you can't tell what your action is going to do to your stability the next turn.

please show me the proof, since they use exactly the same formula.

 

[blizzrd]

It's been quite a while since I played RFC RAND and I only ever played the first release of RFC RAND - but I do recall that the F2 screen in RAND had less information that the F2 screen using sgrig's Financial Advisor.py file in my regular RFC games.

I believe that the difference at the time was the fluctuations, with RAND just showing absolute numbers, but sgrig's Financial Advisor.py file in my regular RFC games showing up/down arrows and numerical changes (since the previous turn).

 

[Tigranes]

Dear Rhye,
I understand that you have two pages of requests to be included in the new patch and only one week to finish it all. I also realize that you don't like lots of drastic changes to your masterpiece

However I would ask all us to rethink few UHVs before the releaze of the new patch. Main motivation of the proposed amendments is to set deadlines every time there is a requirement to do something. That will make game more historical, will kill lots of exploits and will make it more challenging game. Also UHVs will look more consistent -- every single one with a deadline (certain date or before certain tech discovered) or the requirement to be the first. It also will require some luck and will require new strategies.
Here is the list of "no deadline" UHVs:

Rome

Build 5 Barracks, 5 Aqueducts and 5 Amphitheaters
Why don't set a date? If 70 AD is too early one could set the same 450 AD. It also will speed up the code, so no need to check every turn if there are 5 of each. Make one check at 450 AD and we done. Don't you think?


Vikings
Sink 25 ships
Uhmm... Tricky one... Not that many ships available to be sunk until the end of the Vikings Ages. Still can be 1500 AD though...


Arabia
Spread Islam to 40% + by the end of historical Turkish conquest (Vienna, 1683) or before discovery of the scientific method by any civilization.

Khmer
Spread Buddhism to 30% + before discovery of the scientific method by any civilization (how much this may slower down the Python code? One can set the date of Indochina's colonization otherwise)

Portugal
Found 13 extra-European colonies + by 1600 AD

Mongolia
Raze at least 7 cities -- This one is my least favorite in entire game. Even city size 1 is counted as city And no deadline? What is the chalenge? If you ignore any other suggestion please review this one more time. So:
Raze at least 7 cities --> Raze 7 civilization's starting locations (Much more historical, will force more wars with more civs, will force to invade Russia and Europe). Also needs a deadline... 1600 AD is doable I hope...

Mongols razed Jin's Dadu and THEN built Khanbalik, razed Kiev, razed Samarkand, razed Baghdad. Tamerlain can be count as a Mongol, he raized Sarai...

Aztecs

* Enslave 5 European units -- By the time America comes into play. It may force Aztecs to go hunt those europeans



So this is it. Not that many to make UHV list more consistent.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

The Rome building criteria I thought was by 450 AD?

For the Vikings, I would say 1600 or 1650 is probably more doable (since there aren't that many ships to start with, and optics is often researched late by the AI).

The Arabian and Khmer criteria you suggested is just impossible (especially in emperor mode, when SC is routinely done by the mid 1600's, even as early as 1550 by an advanced England). A better tech as an endpoint would be Mass Media (which obsoletes the AP), and gives plenty of time.

The Portuguese deadline should be extended at least to 1890 when King Carlos decided to back off the Pink Map (from Wikipedia):

Portugal pressed into the hinterland of Angola and Mozambique, and explorers Serpa Pinto, Hermenegildo Capelo and Roberto Ivens were among the first Europeans to cross Africa west to east. The project to connect the two colonies, the Pink Map, was the Portuguese main objective in the second half of the 19th century. However, the idea was unacceptable to the British, who had their own aspirations of contiguous British territory running from Cairo to Cape Town. The British Ultimatum of 1890 was respected by King Carlos I of Portugal and the Pink Map came to an end. The King's reaction to the ultimatum was exploited by republicans. In 1908 King Carlos and Prince Luís Filipe were murdered in Lisbon. Luís Filipe's brother, Manuel, become King Manuel II of Portugal. Two years later Portugal become a republic.

As for Mongolia, you need good locations for conquests which are often capitals (especially the Chinese one), so I would have to disagree with your suggestion. A deadline of 1600AD is reasonable though for 7 cities.

And as for Aztecs, it's impossible techwise to do it in emperor until very late, and even for monarch unless you decide to weather the conquistadors (at the expense of much trauma to your economy). 1733 is too early.

 

[kairob]

But america is going to be 1775 soon isn't it? Is that too early as well?

 

[onedreamer]

Arabia
Spread Islam to 40% + by the end of historical Turkish conquest (Vienna, 1683) or before discovery of the scientific method by any civilization.

Portugal
Found 13 extra-European colonies + by 1600 AD

these 2 dates aren't historical.

 

[onedreamer]

I believe that the difference at the time was the fluctuations, with RAND just showing absolute numbers, but sgrig's Financial Advisor.py file in my regular RFC games showing up/down arrows and numerical changes (since the previous turn).

Rand shows up and down or equal arrows and absolute numerical values. I don't understand how the mod you guys are talking about can show relative (to turns) numerical changes and at the same time absolute numbers. It seems to me that it can only be one at a time

 

[Tigranes]

these 2 dates aren't historical.

Why not? One needs to take into account both gameplay and historical accuracy and arrive to some meaningful compromise. And I would like to talk about "historically relevant" rather than "accurate", it make more sense when one talks about the game. So here are my thoughts:

They say Portugal's UHV is the 2nd easiest one. Let's make it more challenging, why not? 13 colonies in the current UHV may refer to these entry in wikipedia:

"By 1571, a string of outposts connected Lisbon to Nagasaki: the empire had become truly global, and in the process brought great wealth to Portugal."

The Christianity itself reached islands of Japan thanks to Portuguese. The discovery of Australia is disputed, but not overruled. Carrack is the most overpowered UU in the game, IMHO. Just think about it. Not only it can carry Settlers when everybody bound to carry Explorers, not only it has 2 spaces instead of one, but also it can go through rivals' waters, just like the Dutch UP with extra visibility. The golden age of Portugal was truly 1570s, they had cities in Europe, Asia, S. America and Africa. I know that in 1580 Spain took over the Portugal, but thats fine. 1600 AD is close enough to 1571 AD, historically relevant, creates a major challenge but still doable on Monarch (never played Emperor).

Now Arabia. First of all 40% itself is not historical. More people per Earth's population is following islam today, than any time before, but the numbers are still roughly 1 bln/6.5 bln. As it was pointed out by others, no nation "won a history" yet. Instead (most of the time) players in RFC are given a task to fulfill 2 goals the Civ has accomplished in the real life plus one they would consider a victory for themselves, like in the case of Ethiopia or Aztecs to have no European colonies on their lands in the later history. So 40% goal looks like a real victory for Islam and Arabia. Now, when to set this benchmark? Historically the last Muslim push towards the Europe started by Arabs in 700s ended by the 1683, when Poles saved Europe near Vienna just like French did in 732 near Tours/Poitiers. World would be very different place otherwise. So 1683 both historically relevant and challenging but still doable (again not sure about Emperor).

 

[jessiecat]

Just to clarify your last point, the so-called Arab "push" into Europe ended after their defeat at Tours. After that there was no concerted attempt to invade Europe itself by any Muslim kingdom until the rise of the Ottoman Turks in Anatolia, other than their brief occupation of Sicily. After the numerous civil wars and rival Sunni and Shia caliphates, the Crusades and the Mongol invasions, the Arabs were too weak and divided to do anything but dig in and defend what they had. The Ottomans are a totally different case and shouldn't be confused with the Arabs. It always amuses me when people talk about being "saved" from the Arabs when it was they who were light-years ahead of Christian Europe in culture, science, inventions, medicine etc. I guess it must have been sort of like being "saved" from Santa Claus wasn't it?

 

[Tigranes]

It always amuses me when people talk about being "saved" from the Arabs when it was they who were light-years ahead of Christian Europe in culture, science, inventions, medicine etc. I guess it must have been sort of like being "saved" from Santa Claus wasn't it?

Well, Dark Age is a Dark Age... It comes and it goes. Europe started late but it gained momentum. Classical science, medicine, classical music and classical art end up being European, not Arabian.

And I certainly don't confuse Arabs and Turks. But I think we could agree that Arabian UHV 40% and Arabian UP is more about the idea of Caliphate, which went from Arabs to Turks. Ruling class of Turks spoke Arabic anyway and Hajj was still in Meccah. So it is safe to say that Turks promoted Muslim cause and therefore the original Arabic Civ cause

 

[Lone Wolf]

Oh yeah, and the tiles of Manila and Lagos should be de-jungled.