Prince Shadow Game, Pangaea/Arid/Med Sea, Noob Player

[krikav]

I opened the save and one thing caught my eye.

Spoiler :

Here you have a chop comming in which you want to land into a settler.
I don't think this makes sense if you want to go for a military campaign.

What you are doing here, is a trick to turn hammers into food. You probably want to play the opposite trick, turning food into hammers.
I think it makes more sense to put that chop into for example a barracks, then perhaps a military police warrior, some archers to defend later during the war, or some chariots that can assist HAs.

Build a warrior (for happines) and then grow to size 5 on barracks. Try to get as close to 6 as possible without growing. You can use "avoid growth" to get exacly a full food bar at pop5 too, and then turn off avoid growth and grow to pop6 with alot of food.
Then at pop6 with 1 unhappy citizen, route food into a settler and get close to 39/100, then do a 3pop whip.

That way you can turn food into hammers!

 

[lymond]

My take at this point is that you need to get the second city up sooner. Gran in cap is nice but not priority over the first coupla settlers.

Kyoto should not lose sheep for some time. The only time you might short term is a growth points if you have enough food to grow in one city or another to get a short food boost in other city. Otherwise, Kyoto will work sheep for some time until it starts hitting cap issues.

Don't forget your spawnbust points

 

[Yeah_Sure]

Here is T60. I was thinking whip the settler here for 2 pop, chop the worker after that, then start building the HAs. For the spawn busters, I'm assuming that I would use warriors instead of archers? As they are cheaper units. Lymond you mentioned I should get the second city up sooner, is T60 considered late for this? If so should I go back to T40 and pump out the 2nd settler before granary, or am I still in decent shape here? Besides that, for tech I'm still thinking currency after HBR. I also added 3 new potential spots for city placement.

 

[konata_LS]

To research Currency or not depends on the number of your cities. Generally speaking, if you only have 2 or 3 cities, Currency won't give you huge boost. When you have 5 or 6 cities, maybe it's time to think about research Currency. If you have more than 10 cities, Currency becomes very important.

Currency after HBR is certainly a choice. Another choice is Monarchy, for the extra happiness under HR and for the Wines resource.

But I'm not sure if it's worth teching Monarchy in your game, because AI Catherine likes HR so she might get early Monarchy, which means you may get Monarchy from Cathy. IIRC, Monarchy is usually very easy to get through tech trading.

 

[Gumbolt]

2 cities by 1600bc is really slow expansion. 1600bc seems late for HBR. I normally go settler, settler after I reach size 3/4. Granaries are nice but you killed your expansion. You can still win this as ai on prince are really slow.

Size 6 and whipping here would of been quicker? I food resource is tough.

Unhappy city is not good either.

 

[krikav]

Here is T60. I was thinking whip the settler here for 2 pop, chop the worker after that, then start building the HAs.

Thats contrary to what I suggested.
If you can 2pop the settler, you put too much hammers into it (went above 39/100). That way you will be whipping less population which is less efficent from a happiness situation.
You also will get less overflow, which I think is a good point about whipping the settler in the first place, to turn food into hammers for your war effort.

Same thing with the worker, don't chop into workers if you want hammers for an army, build the workers with food via whip.


I think @lymond spoke about the city you had already settled, the second city appart from your capital, and I agree that it was probably settled too slow, and that going granaries in both cities where premature.
Going back makes sense, but keep the saves and screenshot from the current situation so you can compare them side by side and see how your different results yield totally different results!

 

[Gumbolt]

Going hunting/archery early may have been a mistake. On prince the Ai likely don't start with archery. I wonder if you would of got a discount on research if more AI had the techs? You had horse. Plus on Prince it will be much later till barbs enter your borders. Even then you get one free combat on Prince vs barbs?

Of course they have to find you first which seems to be an issue with AI not starting with scouts.

 

[Yeah_Sure]

I went back to T40 and played to T50, so here's where I am now. I just whipped the settler and I'm gonna settle it where I have the warrior fortified. I also researched HBR after pottery, and I'm gonna go hunt->arch after that. Better this time or am I still lacking behind? I wasn't sure if I should whip the gran in osaka or should I have build something else beside the gran? Any general thoughts as well are welcome.

 

[krikav]

@Yeah_Sure I'm comparing the two T50 screenshots (Don't want to browse through saves just now, have another game open), and although it's abit hard to assess since I don't know the exact number of units and what hammers are invested in the queue etc, so just from what I guess looking at them.
Are you ahead by one settler now? Granary in capital this time? Looks like you have gotten way further in HBR too, was there some other tech you skipped or is that simply a beaker lead? Good if thats the case!
Looks like workers are abit more ahead too, did you get one out earlier? Only better micro?

Specific about your situation now:
Settler #2 at T50 doesn't sound too shabby I think.
The spot 1N of the wheat I like alot!
It got a whole lot of yummy floodplains, it got a nice 5-yield tile and food surplus would be huge once it gets up to say size 4-5 due to all the floodplains.
It got a forest so getting a granary to 30/60 and 1pop whipping it will be doable (sending two workers with the settler is good, one farms the wheat, one can help chop.
Make sure you work the forest tile 2-3 turns to get the sufficient 10 natural hammers you need.

The spot has drawback in that it's unhealthy, with 8 floodplains (8*0.4 = 3.2) thats 3 unhealth. It's not an issuae right away, but with only sheep+wheat for health that I see, that could clearly limit it from reaching large size.
Also, it's likely mainly a cottage-spot, and will be focused heavily on commerce. And swallow a ton of workerturns.
So if you want more OOMPH in a HA rush, and if you want workers that can chop heavily... Well, that city will just slow you down.

Not saying anything is wrong or right. I'm not sure how I would play the map, just some things to think about.
I think I would actually expand out to 4 cities (or even 5..?) and then hoping that prince AI is forgiving enough for a slightly later HA attack.

The gold spot looks nice, and having more happines would make whippings easier later on.
The fur site.. is there something up north it's trying to reach in second ring...? If not, perhaps 1S is better, would still get fur in first ring, but it would also be in reach of 3 floodplains of the capital. One of those should probably be farmed then though.



HBR before Archery has the advantage that you can get started on a stables earlier. Thats kind of nice, but hunt->archery->HBR is just as functional. In that techpath you can pre-build a bunch of archers while teching HBR, and archers+ 3xp HAs might work just as good as 5xp HAs, it's just different.

 

[krikav]

@Yeah_Sure Checked the save now and there are some errors.

Spoiler :

The city isn't working the horse while producing a settler. Likely due to the whip whipping away the horse and the city not being on automation.
It might also be, that it was a mistake to do a 4->2 whip here, now the city can't work the cottage, the sheep and the horse at the same time while regrowing up from pop2.
Working cottage+sheep would take 3 turns to reach pop3, and then the horse would be unworked for 3 turns.
Working sheep+horse also takes 3 turns, and in that case the cottage would not be worked for 5 turns.

If you work both cottage+horse and let second city hold the sheep, growth takes 5 turns which is abit much.
Probably the 4->2 pop whip was wrong just becasue it whipped away strong tiles.

In this city, whipping the granary looks sensible?
And in that case, working the silk doesn't make sense, rather work only floodplains and reach pop4 faster.
OR, if you had a chop comming in, working the silk to reach 10/60 in the granary build, reaching 30/60 with the chop and enabling a 1pop whip, getting the granary up sooner.

 

[konata_LS]

@krikav

Spoiler :

HAs are a little overkill for Prince AIs, unless all you neighbours are very close and you have no room to expand.

To deal with Prince AIs, Feudalism works better than HBR.
With Feudalism, all you need is to build 10+ settlers and send them to build cities:

Then Prince AIs will act like this:

At Prince level, building settlers sometimes works better than building HAs.

 

[krikav]

@konata_LS Well.. yeah thats certainly possible.
And you could almost certainly do a sub T250 space victory here too if you are inclined.

But for @Yeah_Sure s purposes, learning about expansion, development and attacking with HAs are all good and dandy.
It's developing skills that transfer very good to other maps and other difficulties.

 

[konata_LS]

@konata_LS

But for @Yeah_Sure s purposes, learning about expansion, development and attacking with HAs are all good and dandy.
It's developing skills that transfer very good to other maps and other difficulties.

You're certainly right about that.

You mentioned a good point about developing skills and moving up in difficulties. When people play at lower difficulties, they may neglect to improve playing skills, but the game can still be won, since lower levels are forgiving. And when they challenge a higher level, they feel suddenly in a difficult situation.

PS: sub-250 Space would be certainly nice with so many riverside flood plains. With capital horse and rich from riverside cottages, Cuirs rush are also a potential choice. Pre-build HAs or War Elephants then upgrade to Cuirs is one of the frequently used strategies, especially in Pangaea map.

Spoiler :

Though I already finished domination with Samurais and sieges. It's not the optimal gameplay: I just wanted to have fun with Samurais. AGG + 2 first strikes + free Drill I are cool, anyway.

 

[pigswill]

I'm going to be contrary and disagree about HA rush. Its certainly a useful strategy on many maps but its actually not an essential strategy. Getting the right balance between growth and expansion is essential. City management (improving tiles, working the right balance of tiles/specialists depending on current priorities, city specialisation etc) is essential. Which units you use to rush and when you rush are map and level dependent. HA rush is pretty naff if you don't have horses.
I had a whizz at this and a one city chariot rush against Constantinople followed by peaceful expansion worked just fine (10 cities and a growing economy by 1 ad).

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

I'm going to be contrary and disagree about HA rush. Its certainly a useful strategy on many maps but its actually not an essential strategy. Getting the right balance between growth and expansion is essential. City management (improving tiles, working the right balance of tiles/specialists depending on current priorities, city specialisation etc) is essential. Which units you use to rush and when you rush are map and level dependent. HA rush is pretty naff if you don't have horses.
I had a whizz at this and a one city chariot rush against Constantinople followed by peaceful expansion worked just fine (10 cities and a growing economy by 1 ad).

HA rush teaches the fundementals of reaching a breakpoint military tech, prepping for attack, and planning for economic recovery. And since AH comes so far before HBR, it doesn't have the luck element you imply, because you can check for it when you would already go AH (ie: if you have good AH resources anyway) without committing to a rush.

You can also 1-city warrior rush on prince, but that teaches you nothing except how to exploit the level-kneecapped AI.

 

[krikav]

I wouldn't mind just peacefully expanding in shadow games too, but if you are going to go for military approaches, I prefer them to be as vanilla as they can get, that ensures maximum transferability of the skills aquired.
HAs is good, and likewise is construction based attacks (with axes, swords or elephants).

 

[krikav]

@Yeah_Sure Was my feedback too complicated or have you simply not had time to check in?

 

[konata_LS]

@Yeah_Sure

Maybe what people talk here sounds too complicated or too abstract for you? If you have questions, please do not hesitate to ask .
When I was new to this forum, I didn't understand some basic game mechanics or decision making and asked many questions; other members were all friendly and kind to answer the questions.

Your T50 situation looks good IMO. For a leader like Toku who is not FIN, without capital Gem or Gold, expanding too fast may ruin your economy. Sometimes it's not wrong to show some restraints in terms of expansion.

In your Osaka, did you build a barrack? Since you're planning a HA rush, barracks are usually needed, especially for an AGG leader. So barracks after Granary would be worth considering.

If I were you, I would chop the Silk forest and put a cottage on the Silk. Many turns later, when you get Calendar, just send worker to change cottage into plantation.

@krikav
The was a Deer 2N of the Oasis (that tundra tile with 2). OP's choice of the fur city would make Deer/Fur all in the first ring.

Actually that Deer/Fur was my second city in my shadow game. +1- and 4 from Fur is a nice boost in the early game. That city can also helps grow a flood plain cottage for the capital.

Spoiler :

If I played as a CHA leader such as de Gaulle (in the latest NC) or Hannibal (in Henrik's Isolation map), I wouldn't have put my second city near the Fur. But for a non-CHA leader, +1 happiness is +1 happiness.

 

[Yeah_Sure]

I've read all the feedback and played a few turns. I only played 5 turns this time though as I wanted to make sure I'm getting city management a correctly. As for the information being complicated, I think it's just more of not being sure what to do or build and just generally understanding how stuff works in this game in general. I'm on T55 now, I have the 3rd city up and a worker is there. I only have two workers right now so I couldn't sent both to the new city, or should I have send them and whipped the 3rd worker? Besides that I was thinking of chopping the settler in Osaka, slow build a worker in Kyoto as I can get it out in 4 turns after warrior, send them both 1W of vine and then build my city again to whip out my 4th settler and worker? Does that sound right or would something else work better? As for whipping, is it generally about whipping unimproved titles that aren't resources or cottages, or is it more about how efficiency of getting the unit or builder out? Also I did not build any barracks yet. Would every city need one? What about stables? Aside of that anything you guys can tell me would be great. I'm trying my best to understand and follow all the advice, but I'll ask questions moving forward.

All that said, I've noticed you guys mention that on Prince, you can get away with a lot more than you could on higher difficulties. I thought Prince would be a good difficulty to learn how to play the game, as it's suppose to be balanced between the human player and the AI. Should I have picked a higher level to do that instead? Either way I'm interested in finishing this game, but I'm curious what you all think would've been a more optional difficulty for someone to learn the best way to play and learn the game.

 

[jnebbe]

I've read all the feedback and played a few turns. I only played 5 turns this time though as I wanted to make sure I'm getting city management a correctly. As for the information being complicated, I think it's just more of not being sure what to do or build and just generally understanding how stuff works in this game in general. I'm on T55 now, I have the 3rd city up and a worker is there. I only have two workers right now so I couldn't sent both to the new city, or should I have send them and whipped the 3rd worker? Besides that I was thinking of chopping the settler in Osaka, slow build a worker in Kyoto as I can get it out in 4 turns after warrior, send them both 1W of vine and then build my city again to whip out my 4th settler and worker? Does that sound right or would something else work better? As for whipping, is it generally about whipping unimproved titles that aren't resources or cottages, or is it more about how efficiency of getting the unit or builder out? Also I did not build any barracks yet. Would every city need one? What about stables? Aside of that anything you guys can tell me would be great. I'm trying my best to understand and follow all the advice, but I'll ask questions moving forward.

All that said, I've noticed you guys mention that on Prince, you can get away with a lot more than you could on higher difficulties. I thought Prince would be a good difficulty to learn how to play the game, as it's suppose to be balanced between the human player and the AI. Should I have picked a higher level to do that instead? Either way I'm interested in finishing this game, but I'm curious what you all think would've been a more optional difficulty for someone to learn the best way to play and learn the game.

Yes the idea is to generally not whip away good tiles, but sometimes it would be better to whip away good tiles if it gives you more horse archers. You'll get a better general understanding as you play more
I would probably stop building the settler and focus on growing the existing cities as much as possible, you'd want to whip multiple times out of each city.
Barracks is nice to have but not necessary, but it's pretty uncommon to build a stable. You can only start building it once HBR finishes and usually you'd be better off using those hammer for just another horse archer.
Prince is great to learn on