Prinz Eugen

haters of Brit ships can always look at Warspite . Nothing could sink the thing , and it beached itself in some remote place when under tow to a yard for scrapping .

the British Battlecruisers earned their pay in 1914 with sinking the German Pasific Fleet or whatever . As they were designed , crushing commerce raiders . Not much point in putting them into a sustained shootout with heavies ships . But their speed forced them to the van , to drive away enemy scouts with fire and keeping the initiative . Not much problem with that . Apart from the fact that the Germans were using theirs in the same exact mold . And theirs were more Battleship than Battlecruiser . Same with the Kongos , like the peak of the class . Fought far more than Yamatos .
 
Just because it always annoys me I have to point out that this is wrong:

"The bombs did not sink the Prinz, but it became too irradiated to salvage."

Being irradiated is what happens to you when you get an x-ray. It's what happens to your lunch in the microwave. When the radiation stops, you, or your lunch, or a ship, may be worse for wear but you aren't dangerous. When radioactive material falls on something as a coating of dust and such it is contaminated. It will continue being irradiated for as long as the contamination is stuck to it, and anyone fooling with it will be irradiated also and could wind up contaminated themselves if the radioactive material wipes off on them. So the ship was too contaminated to salvage, not too irradiated.
 
so scrubbing fallout can be taken literally?

Sometimes. Sometimes the best approach to contamination is to prevent it from getting back airborne. The exposure you get from being around the contaminated whatever is frequently pretty minor compared to the exposure you would get from breathing in radioactive dust that you might kick up.
 
Just because it always annoys me I have to point out that this is wrong:

"The bombs did not sink the Prinz, but it became too irradiated to salvage."

Being irradiated is what happens to you when you get an x-ray. It's what happens to your lunch in the microwave. When the radiation stops, you, or your lunch, or a ship, may be worse for wear but you aren't dangerous. When radioactive material falls on something as a coating of dust and such it is contaminated. It will continue being irradiated for as long as the contamination is stuck to it, and anyone fooling with it will be irradiated also and could wind up contaminated themselves if the radioactive material wipes off on them. So the ship was too contaminated to salvage, not too irradiated.
If you are going to be picky, that is not correct either. Extremely high frequency radiation induces radioactivity in metals. The hull became too radioactive for salvage (or long term human presence).

so scrubbing fallout can be taken literally?
I'll stand corrected on this one.

J
 
Last edited:
If you are going to be picky, that is not correct either. Extremely high frequency radiation induces radioactivity in metals. The hull became too radioactive for salvage (or long term human presence).

J

How "extreme" a "high frequency" are you pulling out of your butt there J?

Activation of materials does occur. Activation rates have nothing to do with "high frequencies," and in fact the primary source of activation is neutron flux, not electromagnetic radiation at all. For the actual material in the hull to become radioactive to any significant degree would require sustained long term exposure to a high neutron flux. This is an effect that is found in structural materials in nuclear reactors. Bombs don't provide that. "The hull became too radioactive" because the hull was contaminated, not because the hull was activated.

You can parrot stupid nonsense in political arguments, but if you want to discuss physics know facts.
 
That's fair. The ship was abandoned because of fall out contamination, though it is not why is still registers on a sensor. Seventy years and oceanic activity would account for contamination reduction.

Compared to an early fusion bomb, reactors have very low neutron flux, but it is continual.

J
 
That's fair. The ship was abandoned because of fall out contamination, though it is not why is still registers on a sensor. Seventy years and oceanic activity would account for contamination reduction.

Compared to an early fusion bomb, reactors have very low neutron flux, but it is continual.

J

Neutron flux is also very short range. Activation of structural materials is almost completely confined to the actual pressure vessel of the reactor.

Meanwhile..."it is not why it still registers on a sensor." Care to support this statement? We've already addressed that activation would have been minimal to start with, but since you seem inclined to ignore that let's move on to the actual process of activation in steel. A common isotope of iron is Fe-58. When a free neutron of the right energy interacts with Fe-58 it can merge with the nucleus and form Fe-59. Fe-59 is unstable and will emit a free electron, increasing the charge in the nucleus and creating Co-59. This is only significant under a sustained neutron flux, because the half life of Fe-59 is something like forty days, so while a short but massive burst of neutrons could produce significant Co-59 in the steel but it takes several months to appear.

If you have a sustained neutron flux you can get significant activation, because Co-59 has a very high cross section for neutron absorption, producing Co-60, and Co-60 is a very strong radioactive source material. It is conceivable that if they bombed this ship repeatedly, exposing it to gigantic neutron flux levels (meaning that somehow the ship had to be very close to the actual detonation, which seems ... difficult) at intervals where the Co-59 formed from one exposure would have time to produce and be exposed to another that you could produce significant levels of Co-60. That seems like it could provide a significant level of activation, though the process has a lot of very far-fetched elements.

However, it wouldn't matter. Co-60 has a half life of about five years. Even if you met all the hurdles and produced significant Co-60 in the steel of this ship during nuclear testing in the 1950s we are a dozen half lives down the road. Whatever Co-60 you did manage to produce, only 1/4000th of it is left. The rest has decayed to harmless and stable Ni-60.

If this hulk is still measurably radioactive it is almost certainly because it got dusted with fallout containing (most likely) actual fission products that have sufficient half life to still be present in significant quantity to be measured. Such fallout would potentially be highly corrosive and cause immediate chemical reactions bonding it into the steel. That could keep it in place, even with the ship sunk in the ocean.
 
I assume you mean something like Strontium 90, which would make sense. It's only a bit over two half lives. Detectable does not have to mean high.

J
 
I assume you mean something like Strontium 90, which would make sense. It's only a bit over two half lives. Detectable does not have to mean high.

J

Yeah, Sr-90 and Cs-137 (Caeseum) are the baddies among fission products. Fallout will also contain unspent fissile material (Uranium or Plutonium) plus who knows what all from the bomb casing materials that get thoroughly bombarded with neutrons while being vaporized and scattered to kingdom come.

Cs-135 has a half life of some millions of years and is a decay chain product from something like 5% of U-235 fissions. You don't get it from reactors, because the precursor in the chain is Xe-135 and Xe-135 doesn't last long enough in a neutron flux to decay to Cs-135, but from bombs the Xenon produced as a heavy gas just floats along until it decays to Cs-135 (half-life like two days) and then falls out as Caeseum. So you get a lot of it but it will be so widely dispersed that you won't notice it.
 
Is it possible for fall out to keep falling out? If radioactive dust gets picked up into the atmosphere like during high winds or a storm of some kind, wouldn't it be possible to ingest it?
 
Is it possible for fall out to keep falling out? If radioactive dust gets picked up into the atmosphere like during high winds or a storm of some kind, wouldn't it be possible to ingest it?

The really bad stuff, like unspent fissile material, is incredibly dense. It can be dispersed by winds, but it has to be strong winds. There's also the fact that if stuff disperses far enough there just isn't much of it in any particular place. Like I said about Cs-135...two days of dispersal of Xe-135 as Xenon gas and it decays as it goes into Cs-135 and falls. So the stuff has every opportunity to spread really far, and given the number of above ground nuclear tests that were done there's undoubtedly plenty of it. Pretty likely that at some point lots of people have snarfed an atom or two of Cs-135...but an atom or two are 99.99999% likely to not really do anything to you. In fact the half life is so long that if you sucked up an atom or two you'd pass them back out before they were even remotely likely to undergo decay, so for your individual purposes can be treated as if they aren't really radioactive at all.
 
On the other hand, metallic Plutonium is a flammable metal. The metal oxides are among the most lethal poisons known. If you remember the end of the Peacemaker, they disable the bomb by breaking the symmetry of the shaped charge around the Plutonium. The charge goes off, but does not cause a fission reaction. Instead, it would cause the Plutonium to burn, releasing a poison cloud that would depopulate Manhattan. No biggie.

J
 
On the other hand, metallic Plutonium is a flammable metal. The metal oxides are among the most lethal poisons known. If you remember the end of the Peacemaker, they disable the bomb by breaking the symmetry of the shaped charge around the Plutonium. The charge goes off, but does not cause a fission reaction. Instead, it would cause the Plutonium to burn, releasing a poison cloud that would depopulate Manhattan. No biggie.

J

Maybe. But once again we have that very high density. Getting Plutonium Dioxide airborne is one thing...keeping it airborne as a cloud spreading over all of Manhattan would be more challenging. Probably just wind up with a dusting of it over a few blocks.
 
There goes the financial district, not to mention Penn Station and Madison Square Garden.

As an aside, I always found the Garden's initials ironic.

J
 
There goes the financial district, not to mention Penn Station and Madison Square Garden.

As an aside, I always found the Garden's initials ironic.

J

Yeah, dirty bombs are bad news all the way around. Fortunately no MSG bomb has never been detonated.
 
does that mean the damage from radiation occurs when it decays so a lengthy shelf life might not even hurt someone who inhales a bit of radioactive dust if the nasty stuff already decayed?
 
does that mean the damage from radiation occurs when it decays so a lengthy shelf life might not even hurt someone who inhales a bit of radioactive dust if the nasty stuff already decayed?

This is one of those questions that is coming from a wide mark, so the only answer is a start from scratch explanation.

Radioactive material, by definition, is material that contains atoms that have an unstable nucleus and are therefore subject to spontaneously decay. Such an unstable nucleus, at any particular moment, might decay, or it might not. It might never decay, or it might decay instantly. But, since probability does work, if you have a lump of this material containing millions of such atoms you can say with certainty that over some specified period of time half of them will decay and half of them won't...that's half-life.

So, if you have one lone atom of radioactive material in you it might decay, or it might not. If you carry it around for the determined period that is the half life for that particular isotope there is a coin flip's chance that it will have decayed or it wouldn't have.

Now, damage. Carrying that one atom around isn't, in itself, going to do any damage (unless it does some sort of chemical interaction that's bad for you, but as far as the radioactivity goes). For the fact that it is radioactive to matter it has to have had that moment when it happens to decay. But if it does, then it has the potential to damage you in a bunch of ways.

For one, it could decay by emitting a very high energy 'particle,' that can also be considered as a 'wave' the same way light can. This 'high energy photon' or 'x-ray' or whatever you want to call it can do things to you as it passes through.

For another, it could also emit an electron at a very high velocity. Chemical bonds are held together by electrons, and a high energy electron racing by can disrupt those bonds...maybe breaking a water molecule that your body is using into a hydroxyl ion that you don't really want there and a free hydrogen atom that you also don't want there, or causing some other chemical change that's even more obviously bad like disrupting a DNA molecule.

And worst of all, this decay process can change what an atom is. For a convenient example, even though it has a short enough half life to make it unlikely to be a real problem, consider O-15. O-15 is oxygen, and chemically it works just like any other oxygen. You breath oxygen, and you need oxygen. Your red blood cells use a chemical process to pick oxygen out of the air in your lungs and deliver it to all your cells, where it is used in chemical reactions. So, if a cell is using this oxygen atom for whatever it is using it for, and all of a sudden this oxygen atom isn't an oxygen atom any more that's a problem. How bad of a problem depends on what the cell was trying to do at the time, but whatever it was doing it can't do it with a nitrogen atom, which is what it will suddenly be stuck with.

Which brings us back to your question. If you breathe in this one O-15 atom, and breath it back out, and it didn't happen to decay somewhere along the line, it may as well have been a typical stable oxygen atom, because you would never detect any difference. But if you breath in a million O-15 atoms then you are going to have to deal with the fact that half a million of them will be nitrogen within the next couple minutes, and another quarter million will be nitrogen within the next couple minutes after that, etc.

Got it?
 
does that mean the damage from radiation occurs when it decays so a lengthy shelf life might not even hurt someone who inhales a bit of radioactive dust if the nasty stuff already decayed?
Often the byproducts of radioactive decay are highly toxic all on their own, regardless of whether they are radioactive.
 
Back
Top Bottom