Prinz Eugen

[Timsup2nothin]

Often the byproducts of radioactive decay are highly toxic all on their own, regardless of whether they are radioactive.

Well, radioactive materials tend to be isotopes of fairly rare elements, and biological systems develop based on using common elements. Animals breath oxygen...any evolutionary paths leading towards breathing Xenon suffocated themselves. (I know, Xenon is an inert gas so has basically no utility in bio-chemistry, but it was the first extreme scarcity gas I could think of. Anyway...) So, since biological systems seldom encountered these rare elements no adaptation for using them, or even living with them, has occurred. Yes, they are often highly toxic.

But being radioactive is a severe problem all on it's own. The O-15 example is a good one, since we know that Nitrogen is harmless. Nitrogen is everywhere. But if you take a typical water molecule just bopping along and all of a sudden the oxygen atom turns into nitrogen you have an aminyl radical instead of a water molecule. Aminyl radicals aren't found in nature at all because even though they are an intermediate step in all kinds of reactions they are so chemically active that the only way you could keep one around is if it is by itself in a vacuum. Form one in your bloodstream and it will immediately do something chemically to whatever happens to be around.

 

[Cutlass]

still no pics of the ship in its prime?

Doesn't seem to be a lot of good pics online of that ship.

Design is similar to other German designs at the time. Weapons a bit on the light size for the size of the ship. Ship was big, and the big was to make it fast. So fast long range ship, which was less powerfully armed than an American ship would be in that era, but very much larger overall to an American ship built about the same time. By the end of WWII American cruisers had become much larger.

 

[Oerdin]

I like this Prinz Eugen more than i like that Prinz Eugen.

A pre WW1 Austro-hungarian "battleship".

 

[Berzerker]

Design is similar to other German designs at the time. Weapons a bit on the light size for the size of the ship. Ship was big, and the big was to make it fast. So fast long range ship, which was less powerfully armed than an American ship would be in that era, but very much larger overall to an American ship built about the same time. By the end of WWII American cruisers had become much larger.

I got the impression from the movie about sinking the Bismarck that the Prinz Eugen was damn near as long and initially got mistaken for it by Hood/Prince of Wales

 

[Broken_Erika]

Doesn't seem to be a lot of good pics online of that ship.

Design is similar to other German designs at the time. Weapons a bit on the light size for the size of the ship. Ship was big, and the big was to make it fast. So fast long range ship, which was less powerfully armed than an American ship would be in that era, but very much larger overall to an American ship built about the same time. By the end of WWII American cruisers had become much larger.

Here's one, but not quite in it's prime....

 

[Ajidica]

Design is similar to other German designs at the time. Weapons a bit on the light size for the size of the ship. Ship was big, and the big was to make it fast. So fast long range ship, which was less powerfully armed than an American ship would be in that era, but very much larger overall to an American ship built about the same time. By the end of WWII American cruisers had become much larger.

If I remember correctly, German warships -especially their larger ones- had an overstressed superstructure because of all the crap they kept bolting on up top and pretty poor armor designs for what were supposed to be armored warships. The Bismarck had basically the same armor structure as the SMS Seydlitz, which contributed to the catastrophic damage it took to the steering gear.

 

[Berzerker]

it has the same turret design as the Bismarck, I could see how it might fool an observer from a distance

I assembled models of both as a kid

what was the most powerful battleship in WWII?

 

[onejayhawk]

it has the same turret design as the Bismarck, I could see how it might fool an observer from a distance. I assembled models of both as a kid. what was the most powerful battleship in WWII?

By throw weight, the Yamato.

It's hard to say. Both German and Japanese fire control were extremely good by the standards of the time, but piss poor by ours. Even a Korean war Iowa class would toast them like marshmallows.

J

 

[Ajidica]

Japanese fire control computers were pretty rubbish compared to American fire control computers, but I think everyone had better fire control than the Italians. The Regia Marina was weird.

what was the most powerful battleship in WWII?

I'm going to go with any of the Iowas. The British battleships were all treaty limited or poorly updated Great War designs. The German battleships spent most of their time in port twiddling their thumbs -and it isn't a very good weapon if its claim to fame is hiding in Norwegian fjords- plus, despite their surface modernity, a lot of their internal layouts were pretty primitive. The Italians succeeded only in embarrassing themselves and the Soviets aren't worth mentioning. The Japanese big battleships -Yamato and Musashi- were good, but suffer from a similar problem to the Germans in that they are remembered for what they didn't do.

 

[Berzerker]

didn't the Japanese guy who planned Pearl Harbor get his inspiration from the British attack on the Italians at Taranto?

eh, that was in Tora Tora Tora

 

[PhroX]

As I understand it, the Japanese had already had the idea of a carrier raid on PH and Taranto was more of a confirmation that their plan would work. I wouldn't be surprised that, if they took the original idea from anywhere, it was based on the planned 1919 attack on Wilhemshaven - at that time there was still considerable collaboration between the RN and the IJN so the latter probably knew about it.

 

[onejayhawk]

Japanese fire control computers were pretty rubbish compared to American fire control computers, but I think everyone had better fire control than the Italians. The Regia Marina was weird.

I'm going to go with any of the Iowas. The British battleships were all treaty limited or poorly updated Great War designs. The German battleships spent most of their time in port twiddling their thumbs -and it isn't a very good weapon if its claim to fame is hiding in Norwegian fjords- plus, despite their surface modernity, a lot of their internal layouts were pretty primitive. The Italians succeeded only in embarrassing themselves and the Soviets aren't worth mentioning. The Japanese big battleships -Yamato and Musashi- were good, but suffer from a similar problem to the Germans in that they are remembered for what they didn't do.

Computers, yes. There is much more to fire control, particularly the human element. Of course, the best, like many other things, was at the beginning of the war. Americans improved with practice. The Japanese lost experience.

J

 

[Cutlass]

I got the impression from the movie about sinking the Bismarck that the Prinz Eugen was damn near as long and initially got mistaken for it by Hood/Prince of Wales

Yeah, it was a big ship for it's time and generation. More than 50% heavier than a contemporary American ship,

 

[Cutlass]

Japanese fire control computers were pretty rubbish compared to American fire control computers, but I think everyone had better fire control than the Italians. The Regia Marina was weird.

it has the same turret design as the Bismarck, I could see how it might fool an observer from a distance

I assembled models of both as a kid

what was the most powerful battleship in WWII?

I'm going to go with any of the Iowas. The British battleships were all treaty limited or poorly updated Great War designs. The German battleships spent most of their time in port twiddling their thumbs -and it isn't a very good weapon if its claim to fame is hiding in Norwegian fjords- plus, despite their surface modernity, a lot of their internal layouts were pretty primitive. The Italians succeeded only in embarrassing themselves and the Soviets aren't worth mentioning. The Japanese big battleships -Yamato and Musashi- were good, but suffer from a similar problem to the Germans in that they are remembered for what they didn't do.

Yamato was definitely the most powerful ship. Heavy gun ships were rated by the size and number of their main guns. And the armor for a battleship or cruiser (but not battlecruiser) was designed to be equal to a ship's own guns. More or less. Yamato was 50% larger than Iowa. And Iowa's guns would be barely effective against Yamato's armor, while Yamato's guns would destroy Iowa's armor.

As to the difference in fire control, it's notable that Japanese big gun ships tended to actually, you know, hit what they were shooting at. And American ships had a real problem in that department.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Yamato had massacred Iowa (or any other btw). Yamato class played in his own league. Saying it was not the best because circumstances were against his practical use by the japanese is as saying a Formula one is not faster than a utilitarian because it cant circulate on roads.
Same for Bismarck but in a lesser degree. Better than any allied battleship but alone against a multitude.

 

[Cutlass]

Yamato had massacred Iowa (or any other btw). Yamato class played in his own league. Saying it was not the best because circumstances were against his practical use by the japanese is as saying a Formula one is not faster than a utilitarian because it cant circulate on roads.
Same for Bismarck but in a lesser degree. Better than any allied battleship but alone against a multitude.

I agree about Yamato, but not Bismark. By war's end the US had 13 battleships more powerful than Bismark.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

But Bismark was sunk at the very beginning.

 

[onejayhawk]

The Bismark took a freak hit. It was like rolling max on the hit then all sixes for damage.

Tangentially related, it appears impossible to game Midway and get the result from the war.

J

 

[Ajidica]

[The Bismarck is] Better than any allied battleship but alone against a multitude.

It is worth pointing out contemporary US and British battleships were built according to Treaty limitations, which is why the RN was forced into a series of trade offs with the powerful and slow Nelson and the fast but underpowered KGV. The Bismarck wasn't designed according to Treaty limitations so it was, by default, going to be better in many ways than similar period British and American battleships.

The Bismark took a freak hit. It was like rolling max on the hit then all sixes for damage.

It was also a completely foreseeable damage location. The steering gear of a ship is always its most vulnerable point to torpedoes and the Bismarck's armor protection there was of a pre-Great War style.

 

[Broken_Erika]

The Bismark was pretty much a modernised and enlarged descendant of the Bayern-class...