Probably Improved Gameplay Mod

[PieceOfMind]

I was thinking about looking for stuff I might want for my mod too, and this seemed like a good start.

I see where the confusion was now. I thought by this you meant that the changes you put in the list were ones you thought were good as a starting point, to build from. But actually you meant it was a list of changes you'd choose from because you agreed with some of them. Really you would cull that list.

I do see you edited the post too.

+1 for the dot points.

 

[AveiMil]

Hmm, I think maybe a good compromise would be to insert a message at the top of the popup if that option is enabled. I could also color (maybe) or add a * to those units that are affected by it. It would mean more scrolling to get to the lower items. I could add a third option to disable that message (ugh) but that's a lot of options.

Don't need a compromise you just need to turn it OFF by default

Personally I like options but I struggle to see why you would ever want such an option ON. Consider that for the first 150 turns of the game you rarely want to continuously build a unit; that means you’ll have to go into the city screen EACH time after “What would you like to build next?” screen and change your build.

Secondly, this option can only be “used once” per city. As once you’ve selected a unit to build continuously you’ll never get that “What would you like to build next?” screen again anyway, requiring you to manually change it in the city screen. So what is the point really? I’m accustomed to using the CTRL, SHIFT, ALT keys in combination and it works great.

Now if you enabled some sort of checkbox at the top of the “What would you like to build next?” screen that would signal “build forever” then that would be a positive and comfortable change.

But leaving this on by default is 1. Confusing and 2. Totally unnecessary.

EDIT: Another annoyance with the new BUG (but unrelated to BUFF) is the new BUG option button that's inconveniently located on top of the "+ to 100%" on the slider. This is annoying because sometimes I miss click by a small margin and end up clicking the BUG button. Perhaps I can disable the button; I need to check when I get home. Poor placement nonetheless!

 

[AveiMil]

Experimental changes:
-Lumbermills available with Machinery. No hammer bonus for Railroad but instead extra hammer at Replaceable Parts.
-Scouts now only get 100% vs. animals (down from PIG's previous 150%) but they get free Sentry promotion!
-Explorers get Sentry promotion. They are increased in cost from 40 to 45 hammers.

I'm less than enthusiastic about these changes.

• Lumber mills, really don’t see this is as necessary but probably won’t make a big impact on game play anyway.
  
• Scouts, I liked the scout the way it was and now you’ve just given us the ability to build a cheap-ass Sentry unit.
  
• Explorers, okay, this would actually make Explorers a bit more useful and it sounds nice on paper. Though I still favored just giving them 3 points instead of 2; or just leaving them as is.

My biggest gripe with these changes is that they are changes! I think we should leave experimental changes for a beta build that can be play tested (by me and whoever else we can get to help). Now players at the LAN will just get new stuff thrown at their face that’s likely to change again later meaning it leaves us with a feeling of instability.

ing aside, it's not a huge problem, I appreciate the fixes nonetheless as they were very important.

NOTE: I do not want to start manually editing things when it has to be distributed to 8 computers manually. Although the scout change is almost serious enough to merit the effort.

 

[EmperorFool]

Don't need a compromise you just need to turn it OFF by default

If I leave it off by default, no one will ever notice the feature. This is why everything is on in BUG.

Personally I like options but I struggle to see why you would ever want such an option ON. Consider that for the first 150 turns of the game you rarely want to continuously build a unit; that means you’ll have to go into the city screen EACH time after “What would you like to build next?” screen and change your build.

Or switch it off once when you start a new game? Sounds easier to me.

Secondly, this option can only be “used once” per city. As once you’ve selected a unit to build continuously you’ll never get that “What would you like to build next?” screen again anyway . . .

. . . until you construct a building in that city.

requiring you to manually change it in the city screen.

Or by clicking the city bar.

I’m accustomed to using the CTRL, SHIFT, ALT keys in combination and it works great.

Sure, until you construct a building and don't notice the empty queue and get asked for the next build. I am sick and tired of clicking a unit in the list, clicking the city bar, and ALT + clicking the same unit.

Now if you enabled some sort of checkbox at the top.

As I wrote above, this won't work. Nor will detecting modifier keys in that popup.

 

[AveiMil]

If I leave it off by default, no one will ever notice the feature. This is why everything is on in BUG.

But this is a horrible feature that should be left OFF. I can’t imagine anyone with a clue about the game ever wanting to use this, early game it totally s up my micromanagement. Turning it off is fine, but why should I have to search around to figure out how to actually turn it off? I’ve never missed a feature like that and if someone does they should do the research to figure out if it’s possible and how to turn it ON.

This feature is extremely invasive and very much up to the preference of the player and it’s almost shocking that you’ve left it on by default.

Or switch it off once when you start a new game? Sounds easier to me.

I did not even know about the feature at first and second I couldn’t even figure out where to turn it off right away (adding frustration).

. . . until you construct a building in that city.

How is that relevant? When you choose to change your continuous build of a unit to a building you might as well then add a new continuous unit build to the que after the building is done if you really don’t want the “What do you want to build next?” screen. ALT+SHIFT+CLICK, voila! Magic.

Sure, until you construct a building and don't notice the empty queue and get asked for the next build. I am sick and tired of clicking a unit in the list, clicking the city bar, and ALT + clicking the same unit.

Then you can turn the feature ON if you find it easier.

This might seem insignificant but it’s quite major and at our Sunday LAN I will have to inform everyone and show them explicitly how this works and where to turn it off because otherwise you’ll have 7 other pissed off players when the early warrior they qued keeps on building forever when they would expect the “What do you want to build next?” screen wasting extremely important early turns.

 

[Silu]

My two cents on continuous builds by default...

If you micro correctly, you never get the build popup prompt if you don't want to. If you get it and want to altbuild something, your micro has been suboptimal. In general, play is much more fluent if you make proactive decisions instead of reactive ones (which is the only time when the popup shows up). So I could never think of a situation where I'd want altbuild to be the default option, ever. Maybe make an option for getting warnings for ending queues, much like the warnings for growing/unhealthy/unhappy cities? That might be overkill for most, but would suit some extensively proactive play styles.

Even for people not playing "power play", at least for the ones in the other end of the spectrum (beginners) this feature would be horrible. They don't know about alt build and they don't have use for it and like to take the time on pondering each build, enabling this by default would lead to mass confusion among many users I would imagine. Echoing the above post's last paragraph here basically.

That said, I would imagine there's some middle ground here. I get that meta keys don't work for popups and there are limits on how much you can muck with the popup UI, but how about rightclick? Mouse3? Rightclicking often brings up the civpedia but it could maybe be replaced with this functionality? How about appending the list with altbuild options for all units? Making two "buttons" on the same row in the popup?

 

[Fimbulvetr]

If you don't micro that much, it can be handy for some people, in some situations.
There is only one reason to leave it on: people might never notice that feature otherwise.
But when weighting the undesired effects and confusion that this option causes by being on without any kind of warning against that single reason, it should be obvious it has to be turned off.
It's off by default in my mod already, and I expect it will soon be in this one too.

 

[EmperorFool]

Well, I'll certainly consider disabling it by default, but you're still going to have to explain it to your LAN players or modify the XML configuration file (BULL Actions.xml) to disable that feature by default before giving them the mod.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Yes, it (auto alt queueing) will be off by default when I can get the next update up. In all likelihood the scout/explorer change will be reversed as well. I was kinda in a hurry to get the last version ready before I had to leave and left that in almost by accident.

I also intend to remove the temple change, based on feedback.

The whole deal of religious changes is still up for discussion. I agree with Silu that ideally we want simple, elegant but significant changes to be the best way to effect improved gameplay.

The lumbermill change I want to try for a little while when I get back.

 

[AveiMil]

Did something else change? I'm now able to produce Warrior's even though I have access to both Iron and Copper. You're not really supposed to be able to build Warriors when Iron/Copper is hooked up. Was this an intentional change?

EDIT: That's odd. I started up a new game and now this does NOT occur. Bug?

 

[EmperorFool]

A city has to be able to build every unit to which a Warrior can be upgraded for it to remove the Warrior as a build option. Did you research Hunting (Spearman) yet? Of course, now that I say that I wonder, can you still produce Warriors once you can produce both Spearmen and Axemen but not yet Swordsmen? Yet neither of those two upgrade to Swordsmen, so Warrior has a direct upgrade to it.

In any case, I'm sure about the Hunting thing. I see that regularly when I don't start with that tech.

 

[Silu]

Hunting&BW&Metal makes you unable to build Warriors (though you can still build Quechuas for some reason), Swordsmen don't play a part in this. Imperative to keep that in mind to know when you can build cheapo military police for HR

 

[EmperorFool]

Ah, so then Warrior does not upgrade to Swordsman?

 

[AveiMil]

It's possible I never researched Hunting, but I was at 1000AD so I just assumed I had it. I'll have to check

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Just look at the xml or the upgradepath or unit entry in sevopedia:
Swordsman is not an upgrade for _any_ unit, so Iron Working has zero effect here.
Quechuas have a direct upgrade path to Macemen (WTH?) so it won't obsolete unit you get Civil Service and Machinery too.
(basically: everything Silu said is right)

 

[EmperorFool]

Quechuas have a direct upgrade path to Macemen (WTH?) so it won't obsolete unit you get Civil Service and Machinery too.

The only reason for this is to allow you to build them in addition to Axemen and Spearmen which makes sense given how awesome they are (cheap and great against Archers).

It's the same reason that the Praetorian has a direct upgrade path to Mechanized Infantry.

 

[Silu]

It's possible I never researched Hunting, but I was at 1000AD so I just assumed I had it. I'll have to check

If you don't have Jumbos or Beavers, no need to fight against Horses in Ancient/Classical and no need to have stuff like LBs later getting Hunting is totally unnecessary and purely a bad idea (no Warriors for cheap military police, lost beakers or useless WFYABTA if researched/traded for). Getting it from the Internet is quite common, which is pretty ridiculous.

That could be something to be addressed in the PIG mod. Maybe make Feudalism/Machinery/Gunpowder/Rifling require Archery? None of those make perfect "IRL sense" though...

Btw, I realize most of my propositions include mucking with the tech tree, but IMO that's one of the best ways to make subtle changes (again referring to the Paper<->Machinery example).

 

[EmperorFool]

Getting [Hunting] from the Internet is quite common, which is pretty ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? That's where I learned how to hunt! And watching Man vs. Wild.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I intend to post an update, v0.911 around this time tomorrow.

Changes:

-Scouts and explrorers returned to unomidified state. However, the scout keeps his 150% bonus vs. animals (instead of the vanilla +100%).

-BULL does not default to auto repeat queuing for military units anymore.
Specifically, ProductionPopupTrainMilitaryUnitsForever is set to False instead of True.
(config file: BUG City Screen.xml)

-Temples back to 80.

No DLL modifications this time round.

Anything else that is urgent?

 

[PieceOfMind]

Did something else change? I'm now able to produce Warrior's even though I have access to both Iron and Copper. You're not really supposed to be able to build Warriors when Iron/Copper is hooked up. Was this an intentional change?

EDIT: That's odd. I started up a new game and now this does NOT occur. Bug?

Did you resolve this issue? Do I need look into it still?