Progenitor Civs; My Own Answer to Genericization

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So how many Progenitors would you have in your plan? Would it go down the level of Alaska/Canada/Pacific Northwest, Central/Southwestern US and Eastern Seaboard for the continental US and Canada, or more of a North, Central and South America divide? Where would the Bantu, Koreans and Persians fall?
 
Something like this.

1. West North America
2. East North America
3. Mesoamerica/Carribbean
4. South America
5. West Europe
6. Central Europe
7. East Europe
8. North Africa
9. West Africa
10. East Africa
11. Middle East
12. Central Asia
13. South Asia
14. East Asia
15. North Asia
16. Oceania

Or more details like in the map.
attachment.php


Same idea I had in Fabula Terra

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=375930

I would not play one civ from beginning to end anyway it I could get a chance to change that. I would be changing because it is silly to have Germans in 4000 BC. I would have Germany in the approximate time it became a state in 1871 or some sort of later industrial time. I would have the steps in place to form Germany from a confederation before that and ones before Holy Roman Empire...etc. Oh I wish I could. Instead we have the homogenous people who existed from the beginning of time, and never ever change.

Bantu is a lot of people for a civ. You mean this? Most of sub-Sahara Africa?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_peoples

I would cut up that group into pieces, or either use them as a "Progenitor" coming from more west Africaish.

Koreans and Persians would correspond to the map.

Also I would go in more detail on China. Anyway the areas split up basically represented the distribution of civilizations I was looking for.

Edit: Persia forgot to mention. I would have multiple civs inside of that, but hard to do since you can not have different stages of Persia through history.
 
We could initially just ignore colonial nations and add them in later, as for when certain cultures arise one could link that to tech in the approximate era, like the modern German culture could be linked with Nationalism (as would many other cultures).

I find Japanese too important of an isolate to forgo, but we could not have the 'Basque' culture until the mechanic matures a bit. Isolates can form I suppose similar to how progentior cultures form in relation to cultures around them and their enviroments. Most isolates have fairly small followings aside from the Japanese...

Granted I think our ideas of culture differs a bit, because I tend to relate culture to what people do and how they act, not what they look like or how they speak.
Which is where I justify the greater flexibility in colonial cultures.

The hardest part is finding information that hasn't been skewed by nationalism or have a patriotic twist...
 
Or more details like in the map.
attachment.php

That's a very interesting map, though there's some points of confusion I'd like to address;

  • Could you explain the differences between the Eastern US and East Canada/Greenland?
  • Or between Mexico and Central America? Southwest and Southeast America?
  • Central-Western Southern Africa and Eastern Southern Africa?
  • Northern and Southern India+Bangladesh?
  • The brown area above Persia and the blue area above China?
  • Why is Southern France part of Iberia?
  • Why are the Western Balkans part of Italy?
  • Why is the Maghreb split?
  • Why are Israel, Turkey and northern-central Mesopotamia grouped?
  • Why are New Zealand and the Southern Pacific not grouped with Southeast Asia?

I would not play one civ from beginning to end anyway it I could get a chance to change that. I would be changing because it is silly to have Germans in 4000 BC. I would have Germany in the approximate time it became a state in 1871 or some sort of later industrial time. I would have the steps in place to form Germany from a confederation before that and ones before Holy Roman Empire...etc. Oh I wish I could. Instead we have the homogenous people who existed from the beginning of time, and never ever change.

What do you think of my proposal to alter civ names based on era? Thus Germany might be Sweboz in Classical, Franks in Medieval and Renaissance and finally Germany in Industrial? What unique units and buildings would you propose for these constituent civs? I myself thought there should be a British culture composed of England+Ireland+Scotland+Wales, so there may be precedent on this account.

Bantu is a lot of people for a civ. You mean this? Most of sub-Sahara Africa?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_peoples

I would cut up that group into pieces, or either use them as a "Progenitor" coming from more west Africaish.

I think I was maybe thinking of Nguni, not Bantu; I read the Zulu people's ancestors, along with Bantu's from West Africa, came down into South Africa about a thousand years ago.

Koreans and Persians would correspond to the map.

I take it you agree with placing Korean and the Japonic languages as Altaic, not isolates? So you'd have Persians as a Progenitor? What about the role of the Proto-Indo-Europeans?

Also I would go in more detail on China. [snip] Persia forgot to mention. I would have multiple civs inside of that, but hard to do since you can not have different stages of Persia through history.

I'd be interested to hear what you mean by that, on both counts.
 
Well, those quotes were from late November, but the reason I asked is because I assumed JS's ideas had evolved significantly during the two years between him posting the FT concepts and now, much as FT differs from ROTH. In any case, I'd be interested to hear you and Acularius take on where we should start, though it doesn't have to be in chart form by any means, a simple text list of proposed Progenitors with historical links and reasoning will do.
 
[*]Could you explain the differences between the Eastern US and East Canada/Greenland?
The norther part of the the west of the two...could be cut away from Hudson Bay, but generally there is a culture difference between the moundbuilders and for example the iroqouis.

[*]Or between Mexico and Central America? Southwest and Southeast America?

Guatemala is with the Mexico part. That is MesoAmerica and south of Mesoamerica is different culture groups that did not share in the same ancestor Olmec language to Mayan... so for short different region altogether. Southwest and Southeast total different cultures and environments.

[*]Central-Western Southern Africa and Eastern Southern Africa?

They are totally different cultures today. Kenya former Muslim colonies on the coast in the East Swahili forming out of it.

[*]Northern and Southern India+Bangladesh?
Did give a link in the Fabula Terra thread. But i can tell you Dravidian in South.

[*]The brown area above Persia and the blue area above China?
Brown is classic central asia today, blue is mongolia and manchu

[*]Why is Southern France part of Iberia?
Similar cultures...The Franks are from the North. I was looking at Basque and forget some others in southern France. France has squashed other languages in the last century or two.

[*]Why are the Western Balkans part of Italy?
Because of Venetian State being a big one. It was around longer than Italy.

[*]Why is the Maghreb split?
Egyptian and Libyans in the east. Berbers and etc in the West.

[*]Why are Israel, Turkey and northern-central Mesopotamia grouped?
One group Eastern Med and the other Mesopotamia

[*]Why are New Zealand and the Southern Pacific not grouped with Southeast Asia?
I can not show the rest of the pacific islands on the map, but they are in the same group. That is the islands settled from austronesian groups that settled the islands.

What do you think of my proposal to alter civ names based on era? Thus Germany might be Sweboz in Classical, Franks in Medieval and Renaissance and finally Germany in Industrial? What unique units and buildings would you propose for these constituent civs? I myself thought there should be a British culture composed of England+Ireland+Scotland+Wales, so there may be precedent on this account.
I am not thinking just a name change. I am thinking for example a group splits into two or three, and different combinations can group back together. The HRE was found by the Franks for example. Then the HRE extended later in Germany while France evolved without the same HRE determining things in France. Most of these would not have buildings and units. I would scrap it all together and them incorporated into a catered tech tree for a civ.

I take it you agree with placing Korean and the Japonic languages as Altaic, not isolates? So you'd have Persians as a Progenitor? What about the role of the Proto-Indo-Europeans?
Japan is in the east Asian group with majority population from Chinese immigrants. I think the countries try very hard to find some reason be different.

Persians not as Progenitors, I would have like 5 Persias (not at the same time of course smaller groups inside of it yes) because of the many shifts in types of government that I do not consider the same. The Medians for example are important. South Central Asia names that end with a "stan" are Persian influenced.

I'd be interested to hear what you mean by that, on both counts.

China is a very old group of cultures not one culture.
 
The hardest part is finding information that hasn't been skewed by nationalism or have a patriotic twist...

Just want to say this statement sums up most of this. Nationalism is a late invention of Humans. There is no big group identity till Napoleon. Which is why I think there is just the King decides till that point. I saw cultural identity on the tech tree early which there never was in my opinion till Nationalism movements.
 
Just want to say this statement sums up most of this. Nationalism is a late invention of Humans. There is no big group identity till Napoleon. Which is why I think there is just the King decides till that point. I saw cultural identity on the tech tree early which there never was in my opinion till Nationalism movements.

Well, to be fair, what I originally posted sounded rather harsh, it isn't that I don't respect other cultures, it's that some have been skewed too much and cause WAY too many problems... the Balkan situation just baffles me. Granted this could be my response from living in Canada, that has a multitude of cultures, and the last few governments have been trying their hardest to establish a stronger 'Canadian' identity. (Failing though, but more successful than past attempts.)

Later today I'm going to do a lookover the starter civs (The ones that are availiable) and create a tree of some sort, most likely a excel file, that would work with the bare bones I've posted before.

Granted, I still think the dynamic trait system would be an excellent addition to this as it would truly allow the player to have their civ develop to their situation.
 
How about we start as Sapiens and then aquire Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Australoid, and Negroid ,and then move onto (aquire) specific cultures with atendent benifits from them that each seperate group has.

Nationlism maybe a later term, but loyalty/identity to ones polis is not. Christendom becomeknown as Europe, because of different religion in its populoations, so this needs eithera loose touch ora detailed one to model in game.

In game terms you could argue that cultural identity is what that players techs make it different from anothers, and a sense of being different from other population groups.


New book on colonization of America.http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/05...inkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=0520227832

Article

Archaeologists have long held that North America remained unpopulated until about 15,000 years ago, when Siberian people walked or boated into Alaska and then moved down the West Coast.

But the mastodon relic found near the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay turned out to be 22,000 years old, suggesting that the blade was just as ancient.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...-ago/2012/02/28/gIQA4mriiR_story.html?hpid=z5

Edit Better article: http://www.sott.net/articles/show/2...as-have-come-from-Europe-across-Atlantic-ice-
 
Is there any sort of agreement on this topic yet? I love the idea and it would be great if it could be put into place.

Basically what I'm getting from this is that:

  1. Several base civs that would change into other civs based on resources
  2. A tree of cultures, but do they require earlier cultures to acquire them?
  3. Leaderhead changes at era transitions based on culture built?
  4. Civilization name changes based on culture/technological benchmarks?
 
The norther part of the the west of the two...could be cut away from Hudson Bay, but generally there is a culture difference between the moundbuilders and for example the iroqouis.

Is this difference greater than that between the Finnish and Russians? Between the Japanese and Koreans? Cantonese and Han? I'm just wondering where we should draw the line as far as regional differentiation vs cultural differentiation goes.

Guatemala is with the Mexico part. That is MesoAmerica and south of Mesoamerica is different culture groups that did not share in the same ancestor Olmec language to Mayan... so for short different region altogether. Southwest and Southeast total different cultures and environments.

Just to give me a better idea of what you're referring to, could you link me some info on these non-Olmayaztec peoples? That sounds most intriguing.

They are totally different cultures today. Kenya former Muslim colonies on the coast in the East Swahili forming out of it.

Part of the reason I ask is because you have South Africa divided in two, while Bantu peoples occupy nearly all of it, with minorities like the Khoi and San Bushmen being geographically and politically marginalized.

Did give a link in the Fabula Terra thread. But i can tell you Dravidian in South.

Alright, that makes sense. RI had a similar division for China and India, which could grant potential regional balance.

Brown is classic central asia today, blue is mongolia and manchu

Gotcha. I assumed Manchuria was meant to be the red part.

Similar cultures...The Franks are from the North. I was looking at Basque and forget some others in southern France. France has squashed other languages in the last century or two.

I thought Basque people lived in southern Spain? No expert on the region, though, so feel free to correct me.

Because of Venetian State being a big one. It was around longer than Italy.

Ah, okay then. So would the modern day peoples occupying that region be grouped with the green Balkans?

One group Eastern Med and the other Mesopotamia

What peoples inhabited Turkey prior to the Xiongnu invasion? It's not an area of the Middle East I've any great familiarity with. Also, am I correct in assuming Israelites to be Sumerian settlers?

I can not show the rest of the pacific islands on the map, but they are in the same group. That is the islands settled from austronesian groups that settled the islands.

Why then is Taiwan listed seperately, if it is the Urheimat for Polynesian peoples? Same goes for Papua New Guinea and culturally-similar Australia.

I am not thinking just a name change. I am thinking for example a group splits into two or three, and different combinations can group back together. The HRE was found by the Franks for example. Then the HRE extended later in Germany while France evolved without the same HRE determining things in France. Most of these would not have buildings and units. I would scrap it all together and them incorporated into a catered tech tree for a civ.

What function would these new cultures serve, though, if they had no actual effect on gameplay besides being requirements for other cultures that do have an impact? What constituent cultures would you need to have, say, French culture or Holy Roman culture or Russian culture? What is it about the name changes that you don't like? I'm always open to new ideas.

Japan is in the east Asian group with majority population from Chinese immigrants. I think the countries try very hard to find some reason be different.

I take it you are referring to the Yayoi people? What, then, about the Koreans? Do you hold them to be majority Chinese or Mongol?

Persians not as Progenitors, I would have like 5 Persias (not at the same time of course smaller groups inside of it yes) because of the many shifts in types of government that I do not consider the same. The Medians for example are important. South Central Asia names that end with a "stan" are Persian influenced.

So you would have 5 different Progenitors in that same area? I'm not clear on how a shift in type of government indicates a shift in culture, unless you'd advocate seperating ancient and modern Greece and Italy, or Siam and Thailand and so forth.

Just want to say this statement sums up most of this. Nationalism is a late invention of Humans. There is no big group identity till Napoleon. Which is why I think there is just the King decides till that point. I saw cultural identity on the tech tree early which there never was in my opinion till Nationalism movements.

Why did the concept of xenophobia come about in Greek times? Why was there a concept of Roman ethnic and cultural superiority? Why did the Mongols institute a sort of proto-apartheid after their subjugation of China? Why did the very concept of a Chinese national identity arise with Qin Shi Huang? This may be true for parts of Europe, but I'd definitely argue that such conflagrations well predate Napoleon, and potentially agriculture.

How about we start as Sapiens and then aquire Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Australoid, and Negroid ,and then move onto (aquire) specific cultures with atendent benifits from them that each seperate group has.

Where do Ainu, Dravidians, Hindis, Mesoamericans, Native Americans, Negritos and Polynesians fall in these categories? Wouldn't the "Australoid" category be at a massive disadvantage considering it would only have access to one culture? Assuming (for the sake of practical gameplay interest) that you had to place these four on an Earth map, where would they be? Would it be possible to have multiple civs with these base cultures?
 
I will just try to sum it up. If you read the Fabula Terra thread you will understand this. So I am just going to say read it, and get an idea of what I was proposing. So I will just leave it short.

Yes I am advocating many Romes, Persians, Chinas, and etc. Romans thought of it citizens...the rich and could be foreign. There was no line drawn on nationality. Most people were not even citizens of Rome that lived in Rome. The moundbuilders and iroqouis were more different than Han and Cantonese for sure. Now today Native Americans are grouped into a cluster that was forced on them, and they are now accepting some pan-identity to preserve some of their values.

Some links on the central america people, but I need to look more for a real source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cueva_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chibchan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocoan

Bantu is really the first iron age wave to the south. The San and Kholi I thought on the west side. Basque are in northern Spain and southern France. Israelities are well... who cares they are all semitic languages from Mesopotamia to Egypt. There was influences probably from both. I am more concerned about the larger power of Phoencia and Babylon being separate areas. Taiwan was a homeland yes, but there are nearly gone now from Taiwan by immigrants mostly Fuijian, China. The Green area Balkans. I would group Croatia different mostly religion. The same divide that causes so damn many wars there.

New culture tech trees have more units and buildings...civics..and etc. The tech tree is not shared with every civilization. So if want a unique unit like a special Roman unit made by the first Caesar then there is tech for a unit in the Roman Empire civ. So you have units but then just don't exist from the beginning, and they go away when you change your civ. So you would have to think what advantage you have to going from Roman Republic I or Roman Republic II vs Roman Empire. Bascially a lot more than just one unique unit as well, but because you play so many different civs.

Every east Asia culture with a similar script like Han Chinese like Korea, Japan, and China share a similar culture ideals. Confucianism was center to them all. Small gene variations, Kami vs Chi, and etc are not totally different ideals. Sure there is a difference just like a difference between Spanish and Americans.

The Greeks were damn stupid that is why. Any language was barbarbar which is where barbarians comes from. None of the systems was based on you are a citizen of our country. No you a slave to my rule, and you are more special if you are from a special lineage of people that had no way of proving genes. The mass public did not demand that they have their own country until Napoleon. US citizens did not really even care about a federal government till after Jackson's stand at New Orleans.

All of the cultures...like you listed at the end have multiple versions. There is not just one Polynesian culture sure there is a group identity, but it is multiple groups. None of them would have only access to "one culture". They each would have different stages of history with a new tech tree that would make them interesting. They can choose to swap in an alternate timeline...to something that never existed.
 
I hate to throw gasoline on the fire, but my intended goal with my timeplan (which ties in significantly with my placement of cultures and choice of Progenitors) is to start at least 50,000 BC.
 
1000 turns is the length of the Prehistoric era (50,000-10,000 BC, 40 years per turn) in my Eternity timeplan, but I'm not sure what that has to do with cultures.
 
Its more to do with what you can do in game turns, 1000 turns is a long time for pre history, so further buildings and techs would be needed or else the game becomes less intresting and while i l.ike to maunualy hunt with spear and hunting tech for the beakers, is the AI doing as well with the game mechanic or will the human player just have longer to out perform the AI?. Second as the link of migrations shows, c30000 might work better for game play reasons, as Africa/Med/asia is now occuppied, rather than limit the occuppied zone achieved around 50000.

I doubt most will recognisae the names of any cultures of that time period, (Fauresmithian etc) let alone identify with them and any bonuses.
 
I think discussions of the actual gameplay effects of my timeplan are better suited to the dedicated topic I have for it. I've found that I rarely am left without some interesting goal or task to pursue in these 1000 turns, but results (and maps, difficulty, options, civs, playstyle etc.) may vary. As for the occupation dates of these areas; I have seen some significantly different dates for many of these places; 50,000 year old occupation dates for the Americas, 400,000 year old teeth in Israel, and even 700,000 year old Koreans. I'm still going through the material you've sent me, but I'm not sure it'd be wise to shift my plan in such a fashion without serious consideration first. Thank you for the info though, it's making fascinating reading.
 
Where do Ainu, Dravidians, Hindis, Mesoamericans, Native Americans, Negritos and Polynesians fall in these categories? Wouldn't the "Australoid" category be at a massive disadvantage considering it would only have access to one culture? Assuming (for the sake of practical gameplay interest) that you had to place these four on an Earth map, where would they be? Would it be possible to have multiple civs with these base cultures?

On a Gem (rather than a random map) you would havea tree of cultures, the start point being band of Sapiens, but during the game this start point then diverges to 4 principle pop groups, each of these then diverge to further pop groups. Now we can use resources and or tech to define each of these cultures that could have some interplay between them.

My thought was to have an admixture of civs ( sapiens to 4 major pop groups are civs, then all the reat are cultres that these aquire during the game without crreatinag a new civ) of a different culture, as well as simple aculturated cultres within that civ, that thesebase civs aquire through acess to resouces/tech etc.

Why would a single culture be at a disadvatage?, is multicultarism superior to moncultralism or simple just different. In game terms is how you model those diferences, at present it may well be unbalanced, but using Australoid start place on a GEM from your example, its they who will establish Microncia/polynisia etc before others ( simply being near enough to get there first) and while they are one civ, it will encompass several cultures, some cities/i prefer regions but hey ho) which give a flavour of that city region.

I think discussions of the actual gameplay effects of my timeplan are better suited to the dedicated topic I have for it. I've found that I rarely am left without some interesting goal or task to pursue in these 1000 turns, but results (and maps, difficulty, options, civs, playstyle etc.) may vary. As for the occupation dates of these areas; I have seen some significantly different dates for many of these places; 50,000 year old occupation dates for the Americas, 400,000 year old teeth in Israel, and even 700,000 year old Koreans. I'm still going through the material you've sent me, but I'm not sure it'd be wise to shift my plan in such a fashion without serious consideration first. Thank you for the info though, it's making fascinating reading.


Ok ill look at the other thread and digest further on its contrents. Do you inted to use GEM , or the same authors Old world which with alittle work would be usefull to test your progenitor and timeline with.
As for the English, I was under the impression that the modern day peoples and culture of England were a mix of the native Celtic population (which France is an offshoot off anyway) and the French invaders from Normandy. Vikings and others had their own invasions at different times, but none save the French managed to establish the nearly a millenium old English monarchy.


You will mhave prob seen this from the link already posted, so will expand a tad.
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/stephenoppenheimer/origins_of_the_british.php

Full book here:http://www.amazon.co.uk/Origins-British-Genetic-Detective-Story/dp/1845294823

http://www.sbs.utexas.edu/levin/bio311d/articles/englishIrishScots.pdf
 
I have done some recent research that has provided some interesting facts about the origins of mankind, and the fun possibilities of improving gameplay for C2C

Please take a minute to read these articles, they have some good material on the spread of culture, influence, and technology.

The only humans left on Earth
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2012/03/the-only-humans-left-on-earth.html

'During the last 40 years we learned that more than 90 per cent of the ancestry of European and Asian peoples is traced to Africans who left that continent less than 150,000 years ago. Those living outside Africa before that, including the Neanderthals, seem to have lost their cultures and identity as they were absorbed.'

'The book is most interesting as he describes the surprising turns of the last few years: a 100,000-year record of gradual increases in sophistication of engraving and pigments within Africa now includes a few Neanderthal sites; genes of the archaic Neanderthals themselves have been found to make up about 2.5 per cent of the genomes of the majority of people living outside Africa, including mine; Denisova cave in the low Altai mountains of Siberia has provided the genome of yet another archaic lineage, whose living descendants include aboriginal peoples of Oceania and Australia. We have entered an era in which never-before-suspected human groups can be discovered with barely any anatomical trace, using forensic methods.'

Continents Influenced Ancient Human Migration, Spread of Technology
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110919113846.htm

'Genetic data carries the signature of ancient migrations.Using advanced genetic analysis techniques, evolutionary biologists at Brown University and Stanford University studied nearly 700 locations on human genomes drawn from more than five dozen populations. They say that technology spread more slowly in the Americas than in Eurasia and that the continents' orientation seems to explain the difference. After humans arrived in the Americas 20,000 to 40,000 years ago, genetic data shows, the migrating populations didn't interact as frequently as groups in Eurasia.'

"If a lack of gene flow between populations is an indication of little cultural interaction," the authors write in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, "then a lower latitudinal rate of gene flow suggested for North American populations may partly explain the relatively slower diffusion of crops and technologies through the Americas when compared with the corresponding diffusion in Eurasia."

Rethinking "Out of Africa"
http://edge.org/conversation/rethinking-out-of-africa

'At the moment, I'm looking again at the whole question of a recent African origin for modern humans—the leading idea over the last 20 years. This argues that we had a recent African origin, that we came out of Africa, and that we replaced all of the other human forms that were outside of Africa. But we're having to re-evaluate that now because genetic data suggest that the modern humans who came out of Africa about 60,000 years ago probably interbred with Neanderthals, first of all, and then some of them later on interbred with another group of people called the Denisovans, over in south eastern Asia.'

'Does that mean Neanderthals are a different species or does it mean we should include them in Homo sapiens? Well, they are still only a small part of our makeup now, reflecting something like a 2.5% input of their DNA. Physically, however, they went extinct about 30,000 years ago. They had distinct behavior and they evolved under different conditions from us, so I still think it's useful to keep them as a separate species, even if we remember that that doesn't necessarily preclude interbreeding.'

'A further big surprise was that not only were there distinct humans in Siberia maybe 50,000 years ago, but when whole genome scans were done against modern humans, it turned out that there was one group of living humans that seemed to be related to the Denisovans, that had Denisovan DNA in them, and these people are down in Australasia. They're in New Guinea, Australia, and some neighbouring islands, so that's also very unexpected.'

'The extraordinary thing is the level of DNA is about the same in a modern European, a modern Chinese and a modern New Guinean. One possibility is that an interbreeding event happened early on in southwest Asia. As modern humans first emerged from Africa, they met some Neanderthals—maybe only 25 Neanderthals and 1,000 modern humans. That would be enough. And then that DNA gets carried with those modern humans as they spread out from that area and diversify.'

'And there were further surprises from a specimen that I and collaborators published on a few months ago. It's the oldest fossil from Nigeria, from a site called Iwo Eleru. It's about 13,000 years old, and yet if you look at it, you would say from its shape that it's more than 100,000 years old. This reminds us that we have a very biased picture of African evolution, with many unknown areas, and there could be relics of human evolution hanging on not only outside of Africa in the form of the Neanderthals and the Denisovans, and over in Flores, this strange creature nicknamed the 'Hobbit'. In Africa itself, archaic humans could have lingered in parts of the continent as well. From some recent genetic analyses, there is evidence of an input of archaic DNA into some modern African populations as recently as 35,000 years ago. So even in Africa, the process was more complicated than we thought.'

Mystery human fossils put spotlight on China
http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-03-mystery-human-fossils-spotlight-china.html

Dated to just 14,500 to 11,500 years old, these people would have shared the landscape with modern-looking people at a time when China's earliest farming cultures were beginning, says an international team of scientists led by Associate Professor Darren Curnoe, of the University of New South Wales, and Professor Ji Xueping of the Yunnan Institute of Cultural Relics and Archeology.
"These new fossils might be of a previously unknown species, one that survived until the very end of the Ice Age around 11,000 years ago,"
"The discovery of the red-deer people opens the next chapter in the human evolutionary story – the Asian chapter – and it's a story that's just beginning to be told," says Professor Curnoe.


I also think the discovery of agriculture comes too late in C2C
Wikipedia - timing of the rise of agriculture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture

'It was not until after 9500 BC that the eight so-called founder crops of agriculture appear: first emmer and einkorn wheat, then hulled barley, peas, lentils, bitter vetch, chick peas and flax. These eight crops occur more or less simultaneously on PPNB sites in the Levant, although the consensus is that wheat was the first to be grown and harvested on a significant scale.

At around the same time (9400 BC), another study argues, parthenocarpic fig trees appear to have been domesticated.[13] The simplicity associated with cutting branches off fig trees and replanting them alongside wild cereals owes to the basis of this argument.[14]

By 7000 BC, sowing and harvesting reached Mesopotamia, and there, in the fertile soil just north of the Persian Gulf, Sumerians systematized it and scaled it up. By 8000 BC farming was entrenched on the banks of the Nile River. About this time, agriculture was developed independently in the Far East, probably in China, with rice rather than wheat as the primary crop. Maize was first domesticated, probably from teosinte, in the Americas around 3000-2700 BC, though there is some archaeological evidence of a much older development. The potato, the tomato, the pepper, squash, several varieties of bean, and several other plants were also developed in the New World, as was quite extensive terracing of steep hillsides in much of Andean South America. Agriculture was also independently developed on the island of New Guinea.[15]

In Europe, there is evidence of emmer and einkorn wheat, barley, sheep, goats and pigs that suggest a food producing economy in Greece and the Aegean by 7000 BC.[16] Archaeological evidence from various sites on the Iberian peninsula suggest the domestication of plants and animals between 6000 and 4500 BC.[16] Céide Fields in Ireland, consisting of extensive tracts of land enclosed by stone walls, date to 5500 BC and are the oldest known field systems in the world.[17][18] The horse was domesticated in Ukraine around 4000 BC.'


Currently when I play from the prehistoric age, it seems like timing is way off in my C2C games to be able to develop these technologies.

I hope this adds to the conversation. I argue that exploring, migration, and surviving are the most important concepts of the prehistoric age. They led to culture and technology as ways of improving the odds and passing down accumulated know-how.
 
I also highly recommend reading at least the summary of these two books on the spread of culture:

The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History
by Howard Bloom
http://www.amazon.com/The-Lucifer-Principle-Scientific-Expedition/dp/0871136643/

The Lucifer Priciple is a revolutionary work that explores the intricate relationships among genetics, human behavior, and culture to put forth the thesis that “evil” is a by-product of nature’s strategies for creation and that it is woven into our most basic biological fabric.

Pop-culture Renaissance man Bloom-former PR agent for the likes of Prince, writer for Omni magazine, and so on-seeks to explain why civilizations rise and fall, why nations go to war, and why violence and aggression don't disappear with the ascendancy of culture. Big task.

The superorganism was once a popular theme of old structuralist anthropologists like Claude Levi-Strauss, who saw society as a complex machine driven with the help of a common cognitive structure of individuals in terms of certain themes. Bloom's superorganism is a much more ambiguous blob, held together by "memes" which hook into our primitive drives.

The structuralists mostly saw the superorganism from the top-down, attempting to find patterns in culture that revealed its nature. Bloom instead derives the superorganism from the bottom-up by showing how people who share culture tend to form alliances. The alliances take on the direction given by the "memes" which exploit biological drives.

The idea that groups of organisms can share a fate so closely that they live or die as a unit is something that evolutionary theorists backed off from because it seemed that the genetic self-interest of organisms would nearly always tend to overpower any tendency for traits to arise "for the good of the group." We might end up with traits that help us exploit living in groups, which Matt Ridley calls "groupishness" in contrast to
"selfishness," but it is still genetic self-interest.


Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies
by Jared Diamond
http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/0393061310

Winner of the Pulitzer Prize, Guns, Germs, and Steel is a brilliant work answering the question of why the peoples of certain continents succeeded in invading other continents and conquering or displacing their peoples. This edition includes a new chapter on Japan and all-new illustrations drawn from the television series. Until around 11,000 BC, all peoples were still Stone Age hunter/gatherers. At that point, a great divide occurred in the rates that human societies evolved. In Eurasia, parts of the Americas, and Africa, farming became the prevailing mode of existence when indigenous wild plants and animals were domesticated by prehistoric planters and herders. As Jared Diamond vividly reveals, the very people who gained a head start in producing food would collide with preliterate cultures, shaping the modern world through conquest, displacement, and genocide.The paths that lead from scattered centers of food to broad bands of settlement had a great deal to do with climate and geography. But how did differences in societies arise? Why weren't native Australians, Americans, or Africans the ones to colonize Europe? Diamond dismantles pernicious racial theories tracing societal differences to biological differences. He assembles convincing evidence linking germs to domestication of animals, germs that Eurasians then spread in epidemic proportions in their voyages of discovery. In its sweep, Guns, Germs and Steel encompasses the rise of agriculture, technology, writing, government, and religion, providing a unifying theory of human history as intriguing as the histories of dinosaurs and glaciers

Explaining what William McNeill called The Rise of the West has become the central problem in the study of global history. In Guns, Germs, and Steel Jared Diamond presents the biologist's answer: geography, demography, and ecological happenstance. Diamond evenhandedly reviews human history on every continent since the Ice Age at a rate that emphasizes only the broadest movements of peoples and ideas. Yet his survey is binocular: one eye has the rather distant vision of the evolutionary biologist, while the other eye--and his heart--belongs to the people of New Guinea, where he has done field work for more than 30 years.

Most of this work deals with non-Europeans, but Diamond's thesis sheds light on why Western civilization became hegemonic: "History followed different courses for different peoples because of differences among peoples' environments, not because of biological differences among peoples themselves." Those who domesticated plants and animals early got a head start on developing writing, government, technology, weapons of war, and immunity to deadly germs.

By the time the Mongols roared across Asia, or the Moguls invaded India, many cultures around the world already changed so much that bioregional factors, though seminal in the creation of these broadest trends, weren't nearly as important as the political, religious and economic ones. He is not ignoring religion and so on but, he states plainly several times that isn't his focus. He is looking for ultimate causes--before humans had extremely advanced mental concepts like religion.

He also wanted to point out the devastating influence of disease on history. It was surely the European germs that did most of the conquering of Native Americans. The guns and horses were almost incidental. Later on, once Europeans had established themselves, then we can focus on economic and political systems. But we can't ignore the effects of the diseases unleashed on the Americas. These plagues gave the Europeans a very lucky boost that catapulted them beyond the wealth and power of China, India or the Middle East--long before the Industrial Revolution made this gap obvious.



These are by far my favorite books on the subject of culture.
I highly recommend browsing reviews, opinions on them, and even the table of contents to help this discussion.
Maybe these sources could help you settle on how to focus the simulation of culture and Progenitor Civs in C2C.

I think a few minutes here and there is worth everyone's time.
What do you think?
 
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