Proposed Rule Set

General_W · Oct 27, 2008

I’d like to propose the following Ruleset.
Let's discuss this, then we can put a formal one up for a vote!
:salute:

1.0. Out of Game Actions
1.1. Team Espionage
Trying to enter a team forum, joining multiple teams under different accounts, or processing through screenshot and save uploads, or anything else deemed as deliberate espionage is not tolerated will be harshly dealt with.

1.2. Screenshot Trading
Screenshots taken in-game of a city, minimap, or anything else are not to be traded to another team either as part of a deal or a gift until the required tech for map trading, Paper, has been discovered by one of the teams involved. Verbal descriptions using generalities and landmarks are allowed.

1.3. Save Manipulation
Editing the save file with or without a utility to gain an advantage and/or change game data is not allowed.

2.0. In Game Actions
2.1. Renaming Cities
Because cities are tradable, refrain from naming a city something that can be confused with something else, such as "8 Gold" or "Theology". Naming cities is allowed as long as it is not for trickery.

2.2. Gifting Units
Gifting/receiving units for the purpose of fighting an enemy while in an ally's territory who isn't at war with them, and then gifting it back to avoid it being killed is prohibited. A team may never gift units loaded in a naval vessel to another team, nor may they gift a loaded naval vessel.

2.3. Gifting Cities
Gifting a city to an ally when it is about to be taken in war, or to somehow gain an advantage is prohibited. Gifting cities are only allowed as gifts of goodwill, and each case will be reviewed by the administrators.

2.4. Suicidal Units
Attacking your ally's units or vice versa with the pure intent of gaining experience points, not for war, is not allowed. By suiciding warriors or any unit on each other, you can quickly gain many experience points.

2.5. Gifting and Attacking
Using a unit with multiple movement points to attack, then moving it into another Civ's territory and gifting it to them (either for them to later attack with the unit another turn or not) is prohibited. Units that have attacked in a turn are not allowed to be gifted to any other civilization.

2.6. New Exploits
This list does not cover all exploits; if you find an undiscovered one, it is your duty to inform the administrators. An amendment banning this exploit will require a simple majority vote.

3.0. Game Procedure
3.1. Time Allowed
Each team is allowed 24 hours to play the save and send it to the next team. If they are unable to do so, they may post a request for an extension in the turn-tracker thread, and state the reason they believe it should be granted. Three (3) "yea" votes (1 team = 1 vote) will grant the extension. If the required three "yea" votes are not obtained before the timer runs out – then no extension will be granted. It is up to the team requesting the extension to solicit the feedback in time. The team requesting the extension does not get to vote.

3.2. Defeated Teams
If a team is defeated, any player on that team is permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players are free to share any information from their old team with their new team. This includes any images or screenshots or treaty documents that they "salvaged upon fleeing from the burning rubble of their last city."

3.3. Punishments for Violations
All violations of these rules will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis by the administrators. Punishment will not be overly harsh or severe. It may included, but is not limited to, skipping of a turn, gold payment, exclusion of a team member for a certain amount of turns, or a formal warning.

DaveShack · Oct 27, 2008

1.3 - Editing or viewing the save ...

3.1 I don't like the voting on time extensions. It allows one side of a 2v2 or 3v2 (or 2v1 for that matter) to gain an advantage by denying an otherwise reasonable request for an extension. The turn timer is our last resort against a chronic abuser of time delays, not a diplomatic tool.

BTW, we still need to check if there is a practical method of extending the time. If not, a longer timer would be prudent.

fed1943 · Oct 28, 2008

I'm confused by 3.1 of GeneralW post:
After one team played his turn or the time
goes out, is it necessary to send the save?
I thought it was an automatic feature of the
Pitboss (well, at Simultaneous it is).
Best regards,

peter grimes · Oct 28, 2008

G_W copied the ruleset from the previous game, which was a PBEM format. That's why there's some tangled language in there...

My proposed edits:
1.1 Team Espionage
...or processing through screenshot and save uploads,...

Strike this. Or at least explain, because I don't understand this.

1.2 Screenshots
Screenshots taken in-game of a city, minimap, or anything else are not to be traded to another team either as part of a deal or a gift until the required tech for map trading, Paper, has been discovered by one of the teams involved. Verbal descriptions using generalities and landmarks are allowed.

Screenshots may be given, trade, or exchanged to other teams once one of the pair knows paper, and the teams are connected to their trade network.

1.3. Save Manipulation
Editing the save file with or without a utility to gain an advantage and/or change game data is not allowed.

1.3 Save Manipulation
Editing or viewing the save file is not allowed.

2.1. Renaming Cities
Because cities are tradable, refrain from naming a city something that can be confused with something else, such as "8 Gold" or "Theology". Naming cities is allowed as long as it is not for trickery.

2.1 Renaming Cities
Naming or renaming cities is allowed as long as it is not for trickery. For instance, naming a city something that can be confused with something else, such as "8 Gold" or "Theology", is not allowed.

2.2 & 2.5 Gifting Units
Gifting/receiving units for the purpose of fighting an enemy while in an ally's territory who isn't at war with them, and then gifting it back to avoid it being killed is prohibited. A team may never gift units loaded in a naval vessel to another team, nor may they gift a loaded naval vessel. Units that have attacked in a turn are not allowed to be gifted on the same turn.

2.4. Suicidal Units
Attacking your ally's units or vice versa with the pure intent of gaining experience points, not for war, is not allowed. By suiciding warriors or any unit on each other, you can quickly gain many experience points.

2.4 Suicidal Units
Units are not to be sacrificed to increase another team's units' experience points.

3.1. Time Allowed
Each team is allowed 24 hours to play the save and send it to the next team. If they are unable to do so, they may post a request for an extension in the turn-tracker thread, and state the reason they believe it should be granted. Three (3) "yea" votes (1 team = 1 vote) will grant the extension. If the required three "yea" votes are not obtained before the timer runs out – then no extension will be granted. It is up to the team requesting the extension to solicit the feedback in time. The team requesting the extension does not get to vote.

3.1. Time Allowed
The pitboss server is set to a 24-hour turn timer. An extension to this may be granted only in cases of extreme need. Not having a turnplayer is not an extreme need. In previous games, the lack of a turnplayer caused weeks of delay. This will not be allowed to happen. [insert voting language here]

DaveShack · Oct 28, 2008

I would still recommend caution to not make the timer rule too draconian.

If there is no turnplayer because everyone lost interest, then it's not an extreme need. I never did understand why it was better to have the delay than it was to just retire the team. The outcome would not have been affected, and in fact it might have been better.

If a turnplayer is not available because their power is out during the stormy season or someone cut their neighborhood internet cable (likely) or their child is in the hospital (plausible) then it is an extreme need. Allowing the teams to possibly vote to not accept an absence is going too far.

General_W · Oct 28, 2008

I think you've got a point DaveShack.
What about flipping the rule on it's head - Any team can get a time extension provided they A) Post in the turn tracker and B) State some kind of reason.

The turn timer can be un-paused by a vote of 4 teams after the timer has been paused for 24 additional hours, then un-paused by a vote of 3 teams after it's been paused for an additional 48 hours or longer.

What do you think of that?

General_W · Oct 29, 2008

Ok – some great suggestions here.
I took almost all of them and folded them in to version 2.
Any more feedback on this?

------------

Proposed RuleSet Version 2

1.0. Out of Game Actions
1.1. Team Espionage
Trying to enter a team forum, joining multiple teams under different accounts, or looking around on the CFC (or a 3rd party website) image database for screenshots and save uploads, or anything else deemed as deliberate espionage is not tolerated will be harshly dealt with.

1.2. Screenshot Trading
Screenshots taken in-game of a city, minimap, or anything else may only be given, traded, or exchanged to other teams once one of the pair knows paper.

1.3. Save Manipulation
Editing the save file (with or without a utility) is not allowed. Any actions that would allow you to edit or view the save file of another team is not allowed.

2.0. In Game Actions
2.1. Renaming Cities
Naming or renaming cities is allowed as long as it is not for trickery. For instance, naming a city something that can be confused with something else, such as "8 Gold" or "Theology", is not allowed.

2.2. Gifting Units
Gifting/receiving units for the purpose of fighting an enemy while in an ally's territory who isn't at war with them, and then gifting it back to avoid it being killed is prohibited. A team may never gift units loaded in a naval vessel to another team, nor may they gift a loaded naval vessel. Units that have attacked in a turn are not allowed to be gifted to any other civilization.

2.3. Gifting Cities
Gifting a city to an ally when it is about to be taken in war, or to somehow gain an advantage is prohibited. Gifting cities are only allowed as gifts of goodwill, and each case will be reviewed by the administrators.

2.4. Suicidal Units
Attacking an ally's units with the pure intent of gaining experience points, not for war, is not allowed.

2.5. New Exploits
This list does not cover all exploits; if you find an undiscovered one, it is your duty to inform the administrators. An amendment banning this exploit will require a simple majority vote.

3.0. Game Procedure
3.1. Time Allowed
The PitBoss server will give each team 24 hours in which to play the save and pass it on to the next team. If a team is unable to play in time, they may post a request for an extension in the turn-tracker thread, and state the reason they believe it should be granted. AFTER the extension request and rational have been posted in the turn tracker, that team may then pause the game.
The game can only be un-paused in one of the 4 following ways:

The team that requested the extension may un-pause the game whenever they are ready to play.
After the save has been held by the slow team for 48 hours (24 hours beyond the normal time limit) – a unanimous vote of the 4 other teams (1 team = 1vote) will allow the next team in the order of play to un-pause the game so that play may resume.
After the save has been held by the slow team for 72 hours (48 hours beyond the normal time limit) – a majority vote of 3 teams (1 team = 1vote) will allow the next team in the order of play to un-pause the game so that play may resume.
After the save has been held by the slow team for 120 hours (96 hours beyond the normal time limit) any team may un-pause the timer to allow the game to resume.

3.2. Defeated Teams
If a team is defeated, any player on that team is permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players are free to share any information from their old team with their new team. This includes any images or screenshots or treaty documents that they "salvaged upon fleeing from the burning rubble of their last city." They may NOT engage in team espionage by reporting information on their new team to any other team.

3.3. Punishments for Violations
All violations of these rules will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis by the administrators. Punishment will not be overly harsh or severe. It may included, but is not limited to, skipping of a turn, gold payment, exclusion of a team member for a certain amount of turns, or a formal warning.

Viva_Chingon · Nov 7, 2008

Just a quick thought...

Team A Pauses Game. Teams B, C, D and E submit votes regarding waiting.

Teams can change their vote at any time on the Game Forum.

Each vote for game continuance subtracts 24 hours of wait time from a maximum possible wait time of 120 hours (5 days).

Example:

If A pauses the game and B, C and D vote to continue playing while E votes to wait then:

120 - (24*3) = 48 [hours of wait time]

This, essentially, gives each team a day to vote off of the Pausing team's available time.

peter grimes · Nov 8, 2008

2.3. Gifting Cities
Gifting a city to an ally when it is about to be taken in war, or to somehow gain an advantage is prohibited. Gifting cities are only allowed as gifts of goodwill, and each case will be reviewed by the administrators.

I'm not sure about this one, actually. Goodwill? What's that? :mischief:

I can easily imagine a legitimate scenario where Team A desires Team's B's strategically located city of Isthmus. A trade is worked out between the two teams... but the ruleset as written would prevent this. [On a related note, I disagree that a city can't be gifted to another civ to deny an aggressor right of conquest]

Perhaps we should strike the second line - especially if we're hoping to invoke game administrators as little as possible :dubious:

EDIT:
VC's proposal is interesting - I'm still thinking on it, though

General_W · Nov 8, 2008

@Viva - that's an interesting idea - and I'd support changing the ruleset to that. :thumbsup:

If a few other people speak up about it, I'll make the change... and then we can maybe even put this ruleset to a formal vote?

@Peter - I think rule 2.3 is enormously important. I don't know if you've ever had this happen to you, but it's AMAZINGLY frustrating to amass a whole stack of units, bomb down a cities defense, kill most of the defenders, then have the city gifted to a neighboring civ who can move in fresh defenders and/or is a civ you really don't want to be at war with. :shake:

If we want to remove the "only by Moderator Review" provision, I'm ok with that. But the rule needs to be clear that city gifting has to be for reasons other than spite/denying legitimate conquest.

Viva_Chingon · Nov 8, 2008

I agree with having 2.3 in there...maybe modified to the following:

No team shall gift any city to a neutral team during wartime nor shall any team gift more than one city during a turn.

This would:
a) prevent defending team(s) from gifting front line cities to any team that is not already engaged in conflict with the aggressor's forces.

-and-

b) prevent any team from gifting a majority or all of their cities to swing a game during a single turn.

Essentially, though, I agree with the point that Pete brought up about not relying on admin discresion throughout the game. The ruleset should be clear enough so that a team that is doing wrong should not only know better but be accountable to the rest of the teams for their actions.

3.3 addresses this, but I'd like to see some form of sanctioning in-game for rules violations.

Viva_Chingon · Nov 8, 2008

I have worked on the ruleset with the intent to make the language more self-governing and also to include specifically what we can and can not do. We need to decide what we are not going to do to each other up front so as not to rely on admins too heavily, I think.

Spoiler :

peter grimes · Nov 9, 2008

2.2.1 -- Units
No team shall gift any unit to a neutral team during wartime nor shall any team gift more than five units during a turn.

I don't like the first clause at all. If a GE pops in a city that is about to fall, he should be able to flee to a neutral country to avoid the labor camps.

dutchfire · Nov 9, 2008

General_W said:
@Peter - I think rule 2.3 is enormously important. I don't know if you've ever had this happen to you, but it's AMAZINGLY frustrating to amass a whole stack of units, bomb down a cities defense, kill most of the defenders, then have the city gifted to a neighboring civ who can move in fresh defenders and/or is a civ you really don't want to be at war with.

Or to completely conquer a civ, only to have another civ gift them a city on a far away continent so the civ in question doesn't die, and keeps providing war weariness to you.

:hmm:

Does that remind me of another game?

Viva_Chingon · Nov 9, 2008

peter grimes said:
I don't like the first clause at all. If a GE pops in a city that is about to fall, he should be able to flee to a neutral country to avoid the labor camps.

HAHAHA...maybe he SHOULD be put to work if his leader let him down! :lol:

We're always making more room in the gulag!

I'm glad you brought that clause up because as I was writing it I was thinking that someone would have a problem with the number units per turn (5). This was arbitrary and I figured that some discussion would pin down the optimum number or otherwise continue to refine the ruleset.

@Pete - I know you want it gone, but how would you propose to keep people honest? It's not you that we're worried about, it's everyone else of course

General_W · Nov 9, 2008

@Viva – some good changes here! Thanks :hatsoff:

I think the original wording of some of the rules are better, and should be retained. The way you wrote them is actually less clear, I’m afraid, and would open up several problems… not to mention, it leaves a few pernicious exploits un-addressed.
I have updated the rules based on your suggestions (and others in this thread) and I’m going to steal your idea to make “gifting” it’s own section however.

Also, Peter does raise a good point – I think we should add an exception for Great People.

@Dutchfire – :lol:

no kidding!

Ruleset Version 3

1 Out of Game Actions

1.1 -- Team Espionage
Using external forms of intelligence gathering against opposing teams is forbidden.
example: Entering Team Forums, joining multiple teams using different accounts, actively petitioning other players for information, looking around on the CFC (or a 3rd party website) image database for screenshots and save uploads, or anything else deemed as deliberate espionage is not tolerated will be harshly dealt with.

1.2 -- Screenshot Trading
Screenshots taken in-game of a city, minimap, or anything else may only be given, traded, or exchanged to other teams once one of the pair knows paper.

1.3 -- Save Manipulation
Editing the save file (with or without a utility) is not allowed. Any actions that would allow you to edit or view the save file of another team is not allowed.

2 In Game Actions

2.1 -- Renaming Cities
Naming or renaming cities for trickery is forbidden.
ex: Naming a city something that can be confused with something else, such as "8 Gold" or "Theology", is not allowed.

2.2 -- Suicide Training
Knowingly sacrificing a unit to an ally in order to yield experience points to the victorious unit is forbidden.

3 In Game Gifts

3.1 – Military Unit Gifting
Gifting/receiving units for the purpose of fighting an enemy while in an ally's territory who isn't at war with them, and then gifting it back to avoid it being killed is prohibited.
Great People are excepted from this rule, and may be gifted at any time.

3.2 – Naval Unit Gifting
A team may never gift units loaded in a naval vessel to another team, nor may they gift a loaded naval vessel.

3.3 – Double Move Gifting
Units that have attacked in a turn are not allowed to be gifted to any other civilization.

3.4 – City Gifting
Gifting a city to an ally when it is about to be taken in war, or to somehow gain an advantage is prohibited. Gifting cities are only allowed as gifts of goodwill and should not be abused to deny right of conquest or to keep a civilization alive indefinitely and out of the hands of an aggressor.

4 Game Procedure

4.1 -- Turn Timer
The PitBoss server will give each team 24 hours in which to play the save and pass it on to the next team. If a team is unable to play in time, they may post a request for an extension in the turn-tracker thread, and state the reason they believe it should be granted. AFTER the extension request and rational have been posted in the turn tracker, that team may then pause the game.
The game may remain paused up to 120 hours, at which point any team may un-pause the game so play may resume.
An official vote to “continue sooner” may be posted by any team in the turn-tracker thread. Each such vote by a team will reduce the 120 hour extension by 24 hours.

4.2 -- Awareness
If you discover a rules violation it is your duty to inform all participants (via Game Forum) of the violation or the solicitation thereof by any player.

4.3 -- New Exploits
If you discover a new exploit it is your duty to inform all participants (via Game Forum). Amendments for banning newly discovered exploits will require a majority vote.

4.4 -- Voting
After the game has commenced votes are tallied by team, not by individuals within the teams. Three-fifths (3/5) Majority.

4.5 -- Punishments for Violations
Violations of these rules will be dealt with through the use of various in-game sanctions decided upon by Team Vote. Possible punishments include: Gold Payment, exclusion of a team member for a certain amount of turns, a formal warning, or anything else deemed appropriate by a majority vote. A Team Member has the right not to be tried twice for the same infraction (i.e. double jeopardy).

4.6 -- Defeated Teams
If a team is defeated, any player on that team is permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players are free to share any information from their old team with their new team. This includes any images or screenshots or treaty documents that they "salvaged upon fleeing from the burning rubble of their last city." They may NOT engage in team espionage by reporting information on their new team to any other team. Additionally, defeated players may opt out of the remainder of the game.

I think this is about ready to be put to a vote.
Any final comments?

Viva_Chingon · Nov 9, 2008

remake20 · Nov 9, 2008

I haven't read all the rules so this might have been said and I don't know exactly what a pitboos game is. I just thought about the turn timer and what if the team that plays next needs to finish some important planing for a war or something like that.

DaveShack · Nov 9, 2008

If the team has had a good activity level, hopefully they will have planned ahead for a war or a trade that would hold up the game. But the pause section in the rules is intended to allow delays in limited circumstances.

remake20 · Nov 10, 2008

Okay, but if you get attacked and need to come up with new plans.

Proposed Rule Set

Councilor & Merlot Noble

Inventor

Emperor

...

Inventor

Councilor & Merlot Noble

Councilor & Merlot Noble

Condition 1

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Councilor & Merlot Noble

Condition 1

Condition 1

...

Deity

Condition 1

Councilor & Merlot Noble

Condition 1

:)

Inventor

:)

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