[RD] Prostitution

[abradley]

And your solution is to make sure it stays outside of the law ?

Did I post that?

 

[tetley]

I'm certainly in favor of banning prostitution in all jurisdictions if you're married. It's not "victimless" at that point. Plus you're using community assets to pay for it. Crimes like theft, murder, and fraud should remain crimes not just because they are immoral, but they have victims. If you want that freedom, you are free to divorce.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Did I post that?

No, but the implication was there. Which is why I asked.

 

[luiz]

I'm certainly in favor of banning prostitution in all jurisdictions if you're married. It's not "victimless" at that point. Plus you're using community assets to pay for it. Crimes like theft, murder, and fraud should remain crimes not just because they are immoral, but they have victims. If you want that freedom, you are free to divorce.

I completely fail to understand this post. What's the relationship between prostitution and marriage??

 

[red_elk]

I'm certainly in favor of banning prostitution in all jurisdictions if you're married. It's not "victimless" at that point. Plus you're using community assets to pay for it.

You have a point here, though I can imagine the situation when spouse doesn't mind

 

[cardgame]

Did I post that?

Yes, that's seems to be your general gist throughout the whole thread.

 

[innonimatu]

Now this is a topic I am not very well versed in, so you'll have to excuse the slightly lacluster first post.

I am not very good at "defending" my position on this, which is that prostitution is unethical and should be prohibited (at least prohibited to buy sex).

This has to do with my views about how the individual is driven by external factors, that it is sort of alienating, that it doesn't "create anything of value" and that it's I'd say indecent. Sex should be an activity in of itself between those who really want it, not some petty service.

but I believe I am in the minority opinion, and in this thread you can tell me how wrong I am either with counterarguements or about how weak my "arguements" are.

You will be very much in the minority. I for one agree with you. Prostitution is debasing. And that has been recurrent across societies, across history. Prostitutes were always "others", outsiders in some way. Improper mates, untrustworthy, mercenaries... these were prejudices, but as with all prejudices they had some reasons to start. And that they started in so many different societies tells us something: there are real negatives with the "way of life" of prostitutes that are intrinsic to the fact that they are selling sex for money.

I know prostitutes, mind you. They get tired of doing the same acting over and over. Most despise their costumers. The thing itself is always an act for both the client and the prostitute: the client acts as if his sexual - and very often affective - needs are temporarily satisfied. And the prostitute acts as if he/she cared. Both are aware that they are acting, that the transaction is a lie.

It is a demeaning activity, and it is this lie that makes it demeaning. The client is pathetic, and the prostitute (though he/she may lie to him/herself) knows that the "relief" or "good moment" being sold is a lie. There is no respect in it (though there can be an elaborate show of respect, especially with high-class prostitutes and wealthy clients), there can be no respect in it. I sadly have to pity all those who engage in it - prostitutes and clients.

There has been a trend to rename prostitution as "sex work". Putting lipstick on a pig won't make it less of a pig. The real problem is that the trade is the sale of a lie, and neither party comes out of it actually feeling well. They may fool themselves, sometimes for years, but deep down they know the bitter truth. One knows that it is selling deceit (some people are amoral enough to won't care, but those are surprisingly few), the other that it is not in any way fixing its needs. It builds up and very often - too often ends in crushing depression or even suicide. Both among regular clients and among prostitutes.
The "fight" to normalize prostitution as "sex work" as f it were just like any other work, presented as a well-intended way to defend the people who do it, is deeply misguided. According to that view the risk of prostitution is only physical, and it could be fixed with safe sex (hah, as if that were easy!), regulation, and legal protections for the "business". Given all that prostitution is just an occupation freeli chosen as a job some people like.
The reality is that prostitution is done for the money, when the money is deemed necessary for some reason. Some claim to do it for the thrills or the glamor - it's one of those self-deceiving lies. The problem with this line of work is that it is one of those jobs (there are others, some kinds of sales jobs as comparable actually) that are similarly crushing in the long run for the mental well-being of the people doing them. We would be well rid of all those jobs, instead of trivializing them and claiming - actually claiming! - that it is a good thing they exist and people are performing them.

Sex should be an activity in of itself between those who really want it, not some petty service.

This is the central issue. Unless a society were so organized that getting sex from a prostitute had the same social status as getting sex "for free", the bough sex becomes that debasing "lie" I pointed out above.

 

[abradley]

No, but the implication was there. Which is why I asked.

How was the implication there in my post?

 

[abradley]

Yes, that's seems to be your general gist throughout the whole thread.

Will you please show me where?

 

[Cutlass]

As I see it, prostitution is not wrong per se. We all know stories about young, (nubile, eager, tanned) lades working their way through law school. But (in my experience, in several nations on three continents.) These cases are rare.

Most hookers are forced into prostitution by poverty or traffickers. In the sex trade, markets fail. There are always more willing buyers than sellers, so unfair means are always used to increase the supply.

Prostitution should be suppressed not because of moral considerations. We should suppress it to suppress the crimes and ills that usually accompany it. Policemen should break up brothels and arrest streetwalkers to reduce disease, human trafficking, exploitation and the drug trade.

In a perfect world the sex trade would be fine. Our world is not perfect. While I admit this view will reduce the right of a few women willing to sell themselves, and the many men willing to buy sex, it protects the rights of people being exploited.

I am unaware of any place or time where legalization of the sex trade was not accomplished without much human misery.

Prostitution can't be suppressed. But the act of doing so gives those who force others into it a great deal more power over those being forced.

 

[Old Hippy]

The "fight" to normalize prostitution as "sex work" as f it were just like any other work, presented as a well-intended way to defend the people who do it, is deeply misguided. According to that view the risk of prostitution is only physical, and it could be fixed with safe sex (hah, as if that were easy!), regulation, and legal protections for the "business". Given all that prostitution is just an occupation freeli chosen as a job some people like.
The reality is that prostitution is done for the money, when the money is deemed necessary for some reason.

the worlds oldest profession, is done for money, who knew.
suppose we could have a war on prostitution, like the war on drugs, cause that worked so well
instead we just keep it illegal,(most places) making sex slaves profitable for the men who kidnap children and ship people across borders, corrupt police forces around the world imprison people and fine them making them go on being prostitutes to pay fines
at least we have stopped stoning them as a form of public entertainment
you make a lot of points all of which assume that this is a new thing people are engaging in, not something that goes back to before written history.
it will go on to the end of time, the humane thing is to regulate it, getting rid of its worst aspects, like underage prostitutes or imported overseas prostitutes that have had their passports taken away and are not paid,
they are just some reasons prostitutes should get the same rights and protections as other people when they earn their living by doing work

 

[red_elk]

Improper mates, untrustworthy, mercenaries... these were prejudices, but as with all prejudices they had some reasons to start. And that they started in so many different societies tells us something: there are real negatives with the "way of life" of prostitutes that are intrinsic to the fact that they are selling sex for money.

I can't agree with this reasoning - there were many prejudices which started in different societies - prejudice against gays to name one. Just as homosexuality, prostitution violate religious norms and in most cases "real negatives" you mentioned, are nothing but people's internal feelings that this is something unethical to do. There is no universal criteria why we should consider it good or bad, just cultural preferences and individual feelings of what should be considered moral and ethical.

It is a demeaning activity, and it is this lie that makes it demeaning. The client is pathetic, and the prostitute (though he/she may lie to him/herself) knows that the "relief" or "good moment" being sold is a lie. There is no respect in it (though there can be an elaborate show of respect, especially with high-class prostitutes and wealthy clients), there can be no respect in it. I sadly have to pity all those who engage in it - prostitutes and clients.

Of course it is not a 'real' sex, just surrogate of it. But what makes it more demeaning and pathetic than, say, masturbation? And what makes it more 'lie' than porn movies (or any movies, for that matter)?

 

[Paul in Saudi]

"Paul in Saudi" has never heard of Saudi Aramco?

Yes. Thank you for asking.

 

[Traitorfish]

I'm certainly in favor of banning prostitution in all jurisdictions if you're married. It's not "victimless" at that point. Plus you're using community assets to pay for it. Crimes like theft, murder, and fraud should remain crimes not just because they are immoral, but they have victims. If you want that freedom, you are free to divorce.

Doesn't that also imply that infidelity should be criminalised? Which most people would agree is excessive.

I know prostitutes, mind you. They get tired of doing the same acting over and over. Most despise their costumers. The thing itself is always an act for both the client and the prostitute: the client acts as if his sexual - and very often affective - needs are temporarily satisfied. And the prostitute acts as if he/she cared. Both are aware that they are acting, that the transaction is a lie.

It is a demeaning activity, and it is this lie that makes it demeaning. The client is pathetic, and the prostitute (though he/she may lie to him/herself) knows that the "relief" or "good moment" being sold is a lie. There is no respect in it (though there can be an elaborate show of respect, especially with high-class prostitutes and wealthy clients), there can be no respect in it. I sadly have to pity all those who engage in it - prostitutes and clients.

I'm struggling to understand how this differentiates prostitution from any other kind of service work.

I mean, baristas don't even get to work from home.

 

[AlpsStranger]

Eh, I think there's very little to lose and very much to gain by making it legal. It's one of those things where really getting rid of it is unrealistic. It's literally "I'm attractive, I have sex organs, you have currency. Trade?" Good luck really banning that in a meaningful way.

Make it legal, bring it totally above ground. It would honestly improve the lives of sex workers and certainly improve their safety.

Removing the stigma ( for buyers and sellers ) would probably be even better, but I think that's impossible in American culture in the foreseeable future.

Personally, I don't really look down on sex workers. I don't think it's more degrading than most of the jobs I've had, to be honest.

My main reasons for not hiring a prostitute are poverty, not wanting to risk being a sex offender, not wishing to get a disease, and generally being happy with my love life as-is. However, if I found many of these factors turned upside down in some future scenario ( I.E. I become lonely, wealthy, and prostitution becomes legal and somewhat safer ) I wouldn't be particularly ashamed to partake. Realistically, I imagine I never will, but just had to make my position clear.

 

[Hygro]

There would also be a learning curve. Colorado & California are wrestling with how to manage marijuana right now. For instance, some moron decided it would be a good idea to put 1000mg - 4 "servings" worth - of THC in a single candy bar, and a bunch of people who ate, y'know, the candy bar, overdosed and got sick TOO DAMN HIGH.

fixed that for you.

Is it my impression or is there a growing trend among so-called progressive people to favor the criminalization of stuff like prostitution and even porn?

A bunch of "hey that sounds good"ists acting like progressives when progress sounded good. No coherency, just an over reliance on verisimilitude and presentation.

 

[innonimatu]

I can't agree with this reasoning - there were many prejudices which started in different societies - prejudice against gays to name one. Just as homosexuality, prostitution violate religious norms and in most cases "real negatives" you mentioned, are nothing but people's internal feelings that this is something unethical to do.

In medieval christian Europe prostitutes were (together with the jews or the lepers) considered "unclean", forced to live in prescribed zones, and had a bad reputation. But they were usually "well tolerated" by even this most sexually repressive religion, as a necessary evil to prevent "worse sins" such as men having ex with married women, or unmarried virgin ones. So this view of the job as being useful, regulated (municipal brothels were a widespread thing), and something that were out people and everyone was embarrassed about, was as true then as it is now. This is what the current attempts at "normalizing" prostitution aim at, ironically. "Harm reduction" ,"empowerment", "preventing abuse", call it what you will... I see this this effort to re-brand prostitution as "sex work" is akin to the arguments among the high clergy about the usefulness of regulated brothels back in the middle ages. But perhaps I'm being too cynical?

The problem with this particular prejudice is that it just won't go away, unlike others that you mentioned. It has always been a job that marks people as outcasts in significant ways, It will always be a job that mark people as outcasts. It is intrinsic to the job: sex for money when most people who can have sex for free have it for free marks the clients as losers who are not good enough to get it for free. That makes it "shameful", even where it is legal and accepted as "normal". The "porn stats", the "high-end escorts", the "dancers", "masseurs", or "artists" will disguise it under a layer of glamor, but from what I've seen it always fails to stick: the clients remain ashamed to be knows as regulars of prostitutes. A trophy girl/boyfriend is one thing, a prostitute is another entirely different - even if both are actually in it only temporarily and for the money, and both know it: the important thing is that others don't actually know. The only kind of men (or woman) who brags about having prostitutes is the wealthy, still good-looking and supremely self-assured one who dismisses these prostitutes as objects, to be used because his time is too valuable to be wasted seducing someone while on a trip is something like that.

As for the prostitutes, most eventually leave the "industry" and will do their best to bury the past and let no one who interacts with them in the "new life" know of that past, even in the most liberal of societies where prostitution is legal and accepted. A few will stick with their "sex work" personas in a world that is unforgiving of the decays of age - thus the many suicides among those. I have an historic curiosity about the "porn industry" and have been noticing these things... rather sad.

Of course it is not a 'real' sex, just surrogate of it. But what makes it more demeaning and pathetic than, say, masturbation? And what makes it more 'lie' than porn movies (or any movies, for that matter)?

Masturbation is private (well, not necessarily but you get what I mean). Everybody does it and knows about it, but people don't talk about it except to joke. It is politely ignored. Try bragging to your friends or colleagues that you masturbated in the morning and watch the looks afterwards... but if you brag about having had a nice night wink wink with your girl/boyfriend, or even a one-night-stand hookup, the reaction is entirely different.
Porn is also usually consumed privately. Everybody does it, sure. But this effort to keep it private does show that we are kind of ashamed of it, doesn't it? It is not the shame of something forbidden, it is the shame of something inadequate: those are replacements for the free sex with someone who actually desires to **** with you. Perhaps this shame should not exist - but it does. And I doubt it will change.

I'm struggling to understand how this differentiates prostitution from any other kind of service work.

I mean, baristas don't even get to work from home.

Baristas have no problem with letting it be knows they are baristas. Very few prostitutes announce their jobs outside of the job. The porn stars, basically, and you'll notice they still work under aliases even though now it's impossible to erase one's past.

Mind you, I do not disagree that there are many services works that are demeaning. Not do I like our current social organization where everything seems to be for sale. It is almost as if someone were trying to make this old prediction true:

Finally, there came a time when everything that men had considered as inalienable became an object of exchange, of traffic and could be alienated. This is the time when the very things which till then had been communicated, but never exchanged; given, but never sold; acquired, but never bought – virtue, love, conviction, knowledge, conscience, etc. – when everything, in short, passed into commerce. It is the time of general corruption, of universal venality, or, to speak in terms of political economy, the time when everything, moral or physical, having become a marketable value, is brought to the market to be assessed at its truest value.

"Sex work" is nothing new, I do know that... but at least in the past, and up till now, people acknowledged that it was a "necessary evil". Activists (and supposedly "left-wing" ones at that!) want to present it as some kind of virtue! Now that everyone chases perfection and love, it is sold wrapped up in that - perfect, professional sex. Be loved for one night, or one hour, or whatever. Even if everyone is onto the deceit. There are things that should not ever be sold nor even used for sales purposes.

In before anyone (everyone?) jumps on me for being "anti-liberal", I was giving a (rather long-winded) answer to Lohrenswald's original post. I can acknowledge that given poverty and inequality (and sometimes rather immature people), controlling prostitution is better than trying to ban it. What I do not like is the pretense that it should be presented as a good thing. It is a false pretense, one that can never be fulfilled.

 

[red_elk]

The problem with this particular prejudice is that it just won't go away, unlike others that you mentioned. It has always been a job that marks people as outcasts in significant ways, It will always be a job that mark people as outcasts. It is intrinsic to the job: sex for money when most people who can have sex for free have it for free marks the clients as losers who are not good enough to get it for free.

I'm sure that the reason for prejudices here is not the fact that the clients are being considered losers (as you mentioned, some of them are very wealthy people). The real reason is that sex in our culture is considered part of private life and people treat everything related to it as shameful - not only prostitution, but also other stuff such as erotic magazines, condoms, sex toys, etc. People who unable to get sex for free are no more losers than (for example) physically disabled people - some of them may consider themselves too ugly, may have communication or mental problems. It's not their fault if they are unable to have sex without paying for it and they should not be stigmatized for it. So I agree with you that the prejudice against prostitution exists in many societies, but I consider it not a 'natural', but cultural thing.

Masturbation is private (well, not necessarily but you get what I mean). Everybody does it and knows about it, but people don't talk about it except to joke. It is politely ignored. Try bragging to your friends or colleagues that you masturbated in the morning and watch the looks afterwards... but if you brag about having had a nice night wink wink with your girl/boyfriend, or even a one-night-stand hookup, the reaction is entirely different.
Porn is also usually consumed privately. Everybody does it, sure. But this effort to keep it private does show that we are kind of ashamed of it, doesn't it? It is not the shame of something forbidden, it is the shame of something inadequate: those are replacements for the free sex with someone who actually desires to **** with you. Perhaps this shame should not exist - but it does. And I doubt it will change.

But all what you said applied to prostitution as well. It's also done in private, substitutes real sex and considered kind of shameful. In fact if you look at your example about bragging, masturbation and watching porn would be considered even more shameful than having sex for money. But nobody wants to outlaw masturbation, at least anymore.

What I do not like is the pretense that it should be presented as a good thing.

We don't need to present it as good or bad thing. I personally was talking about legalization as a way to prevent some bad things associated with it.

 

[Kozmos]

Maybe. How would you feel about hyper-realistic robots I could use to fulfill my bloodiest Dexter fantasies?

Same with child porn. Abhorrent stuff, but if it keeps from actual people being used then let them have it. Kind of like introduction of easily accessible e-porn makes sexual assaults go down.

 

[Old Hippy]

Same with child porn. Abhorrent stuff, but if it keeps from actual people being used then let them have it. Kind of like introduction of easily accessible e-porn makes sexual assaults go down.

children do get used tho, making the Abhorrent stuff