noto2. By itself Drill IV is already a very powerful promotion. If you were thinking about boosting the drill line then think about Drill 1 in particular, or 2 and 3.
Protective Trait-- Underrated?
- Thread starter PreLynMax
- Start date
I agree Piece of Mind; Drill 1 is too weak with only a chance of a FS. It would be more balanced and attractive if one of the FS from Drill 4 was swapped with the FS chance of Drill 1.
Then we'd have something like:
Drill 1 1 FS
Drill 2 1 FS, -20% collateral
Drill 3 2 FSC, -20% collateral
Drill 4 1 FS, 1FSC, -20% collateral, +10 mounted.
So in total a Drill 4 unit would be the same but the 3 earlier levels would be better with a FS instead of a FSC. That might be enough to balance out the drill line of promotions, and would also make Protective a little stronger at the same time.
Then we'd have something like:
Drill 1 1 FS
Drill 2 1 FS, -20% collateral
Drill 3 2 FSC, -20% collateral
Drill 4 1 FS, 1FSC, -20% collateral, +10 mounted.
So in total a Drill 4 unit would be the same but the 3 earlier levels would be better with a FS instead of a FSC. That might be enough to balance out the drill line of promotions, and would also make Protective a little stronger at the same time.
UncleJJ I really like that idea. IMO the reason Drill gets so little love is because most people see how crappy Drill I is straight away and will never take much time to explore through to Drill IV where all the power is.
The suggestion you made is good IMO because there is still incentive to take D4 at the end of it.
By the way, the suggestion someone made to make D4 units immune to collateral is way too overpowered. Consider especially that lower collateral damage includes damage from bombers. D4 machine guns would be near unstoppable until modern armour.
The suggestion you made is good IMO because there is still incentive to take D4 at the end of it.
By the way, the suggestion someone made to make D4 units immune to collateral is way too overpowered. Consider especially that lower collateral damage includes damage from bombers. D4 machine guns would be near unstoppable until modern armour.
Wodan
Deity
That's usually the main reason I tend to use Drill a lot when I play PRO, but hardly ever when I don't. Drill I and Drill III are sub-par promotions IMO. When you get Drill I "for free" it makes the whole Drill line a lot more attractive. Likewise, if Drill I were boosted up slightly, that would give an incentive that way, as well, for non-PRO leaders.
That is more or less identical to my opinion. I have an article on Drill in the making and one of my rules of thumb (meaning it doesn't always have to be followed but it's certainly useful) is to only consider using drill promotions when using a PRO leader. Drill is all about Drill IV, and it should never (IMO) be used on units that are not likely to ever reach Drill IV.
Other general rules, which I plan to go over:
-Always use drill at a ratio advantage (ratio of modified strengths), preferably a ratio in your favor of at least 1.4 or so.
-Try to use Drill IV units against units with no first strikes when possible, to maximise the FS advantage.
I think the comparison cornplanter is trying to make is that when a catapult is "suicided" it is with the knowledge that collateral damage WILL take place regardless of unit survival. Since that was the purpose of the attack, survival of the unit is secondary. With a mounted unit, survival is key if the purpose was to inflict flanking damage on siege units.
It should be noted that it possible to "suicide" a catapult and not do any collateral damage at all. If the defending stack has enough siege units. The siege units are eligable for selection as one of the units to recieve collateral damage. Though they will not suffer any damage at all.
Wodan
Deity
I think here is a good place to mention the Flanking promotions.
I think your second paragraph was a bit of Devil's advocate, right?
Anyway, that's exactly my point... if you get invaded by a siege-heavy SOD, sending in the horses is a very good move, while sending in the cats is a poor move. (The converse is true of a siege-light SOD.)
Agreed, but what about -80% collateral damage? I've often thought that D1 should come with the -20% collateral damage addition as well.
IMO -80% is too much. If you thought protective leaders were bad enough now when you're trying to take cities, imagine how hard it would be when the defender has D4 units with that new bonus. Keep in mind these units have very high defense bonuses stacked already. Siege becomes so much less effective it would be a bit broken IMHO. 60% is already a pretty decent reduction.
If you really wanted to fiddle with the collateral damage reductions I'd suggest removing the one from D4 and putting it on D1. But my preferred fix would be the one Wodan mentioned - swapping one of the D4 first stikes onto D1 for its first strike chance.
If you really wanted to fiddle with the collateral damage reductions I'd suggest removing the one from D4 and putting it on D1. But my preferred fix would be the one Wodan mentioned - swapping one of the D4 first stikes onto D1 for its first strike chance.
Wodan
Deity
Why would "immune to collateral" == "nearly unstoppable" ? Is collateral that big of a crutch?
obsolete
Deity
I prefer cavalry over seige, so let them have all the collateral protection they want. I don't give a damn... makes no difference to me.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,995
It's pretty nasty. Completely backward or just partially backward opponents can completely flatten stacks with it. My favorite time period is where infantry/arty on the defensive shred pretty much everything until mech infantry and modern armor, unless there is overwhelming air power from the tech leader.
In other words, enough arty collateral can beat almost anything in the game but the very most advanced units, although mobile arty and air power is the answer there.
I was overstating a bit. Tanks would be enough, but before tanks D4 machine guns and D4 infantry would be extremely difficult to kill in any reasonably defendable position eg. fortified in a hill city. Even with CR3 infantry you can probably expect to lose about 4 infantry for each defending infantry.
I suppose the collateral is not a crutch but without it losses can be massive when attacking D4 units.
I also forgot that immunity to collateral on machine guns is only to siege weapons - it doesn't include bombers.
Wodan
Deity
Right. So we're only talking about air collateral here.
A fortified MG is, what, +75%, +100% if on a hill? CRII would pretty much make it a wash. So, you would have to trade 1:1 (the first attacker dies but wounds the MG, the second attacker kills it).
Or, you could use cav/tanks. Against them the MG gets only +25%/+50%(hill). Again, with promotions it would make it a wash.
This goes back to my comment about siege. Air collateral is the same but even worse (because there is less chance of suicide). Do we have a blind spot? Have we been "trained" to suicide siege and we've forgotten that you can send in other units just as easily (actually, more easily in some cases because those other untis are cheaper than the siege).
Keep in mind half the point of the drill IV troops is they are very resilient to taking damage when they win combat. You assumed that a fortified MG after winning battle will be injured enough to lose the next battle. Against a tank or later unit this might be true, but not so for many other units. A D4 MG often can survive 2 or 3 battles in a row.
Wodan
Deity
Flanking II
requires: Flanking I
Mounted, Armored,
Helicopter, Naval
immune to first strikes
+20% withdrawal chance
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
yeah, but your cr is upgraded only from maces, last thing with cr... so your very limited in the ammount of cr troops you can sacrifice.
it's pretty binary - you either suicide/withdraw enough to kill his siege in order to avoid the collateral or you'll soak it anyway, even if the siege will die dealing it... I usually try to keep a pack of 8-10 mounted when I'm about to be declared, but if I can't reach at least 6-8 units, I don't bother building any.
CossackProblem
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2007
- Messages
- 131
I think the units in PRO that get the bonuses should also get the first medic level.
Units that cannot receive CR like mounted and helicopter units you mentioned, will not likely go up against a D4 defender but instead one with just plain high defense bonuses.
It is always going to be the case that if the attacker has largely superior units then he will have the edge. I am talking more about relative parity. I already said earlier that tanks can stand a chance. Helicopters may not technically be later units but we're just nitpicking here.
Cavalry - the strongest mounted unit - with Flanking II are going to have a lot of trouble still, against D4 infantry that are fortified. And besides, the way the best defender is selected takes immunity to first strikes into account so unless the D4 defenders are the only ones left you will not be up against D4 units with those guys anyway.
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