Quentin:
Can you name me even one person who would defy an all powerful God thing that could do anything without so much as a thought?
I would, if I wouldn't be convinienced that I'm incapable of living the right life.
The problem is that we want to be our own god. We don't want to accept any authority above us. We want to be the highest authority in our life ourselves. We want nobody else to tell us what to do. And if we fail, we want to fix things by ourselves. It doesn't matter if God is good or evil. We want to be our own god.
Why should God refuse to make Himself known if He is as believers claim He is?
Well, God has made himself known several times.
But people don't accept it. Pherhaps for 10 years people believe so, and after 10 years the new generation says that their parents never saw God made himself known.
Besides that, I still stand on my point. It's all about the message. We are broken, we are not what we were designed to be. We cannot fix ourselves, only God can. The message is: we cannot be our own 'god', we will fail.
That's true, either if God does exist or not.
If it truly is about the message why do non-believers supposedly go to Hell for denying Him?
If we are broken, and heaven (= the new earth) is perfect, we cannot enter the new earth. (how could broken be combined with perfect? )
God wants us to be remade, but he won't force his 'patch' upon us.
We must want to be remade. And for that reason we must admit that we are broken.
Only if we are broken and admit that he can remake us, he will remake us.
That's a very 'technicall' explanation.
The better explanation is that God wants to be with us forever. But if we don't want to be with God forever, if we don't love him, he won't force us to live with him forever. It's not a forced mariage.
Hell is just living in the absence of God.
Like hell would be living in the absence of my wife, for me.
There really are times when the concept of a forgiving and almighty God makes no sense.
That's because you can't / don't want to see the entire concept.
But I agree, sometimes it's hard. And I don't know all the answers.
But I'm sorry to tell you that the truth is far more complicated than your questions imply. You try too much to put your (our) post-modern wester cultural situation on God, and on what the truth should be like.
King Alexander
Another proof of the arrogance believers have: "(the christian) God"? Are you sure that all the other "Gods" are wrong?
There are 3 options:
1. there are no gods
2. there is one god, all other gods are false
3. it doesn't matter in which god you believe
If option 1 or 3 would be true my words would be arrogant indeed.
It would be as if I would say that my wife is beautifull and all other women are ugly.
If option2 would be true my words are simply the truth. As in there is one queen in The Netherlands, and that's queen Beatrix. There are no other queens in The Netherlands.
Am I arrogant for claiming that there is no queen but queen beatrix? (in The Netherlands)
I can see from your point of view that I'm arrogant.
But from my point of view, I simply state what I believe in.
It's not as if I want everybody to be wrong, I just believe that everybody is wrong.
If you have seen a brick wall on the road and you see several cars speeding with 150mph into the direction of the wall and you know there's one way to get around the wall. Wouldn't you tell the drivers there is a wall? And there's one way to get around it?
Pherhaps the drivers would tell you: "There is no wall, you're insane" or "Why do you think that your way around is the only way around"
It's not as if I don't want there to be another way. And if I want all others to drive against the brick wall. It's just that I'm afraid that that's what will happen. It has nothing *nothing* to do with arrogance. It's not a game about football teams in which I say that my team is better.
It's a matter of living and death in my opinion, and I hope that all you guys will live.
Have you read religion books from foreing religions?
yes.
Who proved that JC was the son of God? JC did that for himself? What a proof!!! I can claim that for myself, you know.
That's what I mean. Jesus performed miracles, but people still did not believe.
Remember that the Jewish people Jesus performed miracles for had another background than you did. They were expecting a Messiah. They saw the miracles. They saw Jesus' claim to be the Messiah. And they still did not believe so.
You are right, why should they believe so if He said so?
And that's why they didn't. I don't say they had to believe him. But you shouldn't claim that if miracles would be done or God would speak loud out, they would believe. People won't.
I have been into discussions about something that was provable, and people still claimed things weren't true after sawing the proof.
People tent to stick to their opinion, no matter what. For sure if it's about things like the sence of life. Only if one would be really open minded, proof would work. But I don't believe that someone is really open minded. Sure some are more open minded than others. But in the end nobody is open minded.
But of course! How convenient for the believers to say that over and over again...
I don't try to be convinient.
I try to explain why I think that God doesn't come with more miracles and write His name into the sky. It's convinient to me. I know that nothing I say would be convinient to you. Like most obviously noting you say would be convinient to me. That's why we have this debate.
I can see your point for not believing in god. I wonder if you can see my point for believing in God as well. That would be something.
That's right: God did a bad job with people; he's not perfect.
How would you have done it?
Do you have the complete overview of the implications of creating humans?
Do you know the concquences for if he would have done it different?
Do you understand the choises he made, and for what reasons he did so?
I think that God created perfect humans. And perfect implies: self thinking.
Without that we would have been animals. Perfect animals.
Are you suggesting that he should eliminate us all and begin from scratch? How humanitarian.
Well, I would most obviously destroy my own creation if it would raise against me. But God didn't, he didn't eliminate us, he will fix us.
That's not from scratch.
Maybe he'll admit his mistakes in a confession type...
Did you ever admit your mistakes to God?
Or are you perfect?
He cannot be my God, because he's powerless.
Why? Because he doesn't do what you would do if you were him?
So in fact you claim to be a better god. That's the point, we humans claim that we are better than god, while we have no clue about all the facts of this universe nor do we know the full concequences of decisions.
And eventhough we lack so much information and inteligence, we still claim we could have done a better job. We want to be god ourselves, and we don't accept God to be our God.
I never ask him to show himself to me. I don't want to be a God's servant/slave; I'm a person with free will.
Serving God made me free.
But if you don't want to you don't have to.
Some dope addicts started using dope because they claimed to be free to do so.
Who says that you are free? Your opinion is what the opinion of the majority of the western world is. Your arguments are just the arguments the majority of the western world gives. If you would have lived in the middle ages you most obviously would have been a roman catholic with the masses.
I'm sorry, I can't see why you are free.
but if you think you're free and you're happy with that, than I'm happy for you. I wish you the very best, and I hope all your wishes come true.
I hope there is no wall and you won't ride against the wall and die.
But I'm afraid there is a wall, and there's only one way to avoid it. Not because I'm arrogant, but because I hope you'll take that road and live.
anybody going to reply to my logical argumentation why there must be a *something* or do I have to post it again?
The Greek language is a mathematical language, as you know, and each word is a synthesis of a specific meaning; I know this 
In which side are you?
