Prove God Exists - Act Three

[Robert Plomp]

I'll post it again.

God: supernatural being that's not a part of our 'dimension'
Creation: everything we can observe directly or indirectly. ie. it's the universe. Everything that is a part of our 'dimension'.

What can be said about the universe?
To say something about the universe in general, we need to find properties that apply to all parts of the universe. ie. if all parts of a bike are red, the bike will be red.

But before we take a look at the shared-properties of all parts of the universe, we must group everything that's a part of the universe into two groups. The group of physical (material) things and the group of non-physical (non-material) things. (ie. love, wind, heat)
About that 2nd group, this 2nd group is dependant on the 1st group. Without material there can't be inmaterial things. No gravity without mass. No love without an organism. No heat without a fire.
It's safe to say that while looking at the universe / creation, we only have to take a look at the physical group. If we would remove all the materials, no inmaterials would be left over.

- Everything in the universe has a limited size. There's nothing that has an infinite size.

- Everything in the universe has an origin / former shape. There's nothing that has ever popped out of plain nothing. A rock comes from a mountain, which comes from a planet. A human is born from the conception of the body fluid of two people.

- Everything in the universe has a point of beginning. There's nothing that has always been.

It's safe to say that if these 3 properties count for all parts of the universe, it must count for the universe itself. Since without the parts of the universe, there would be no universe.

Thus the universe has a limited size. It ends somewhere after the last planet/star/comet/unimaginable thing.

Thus the universe has a source. It can't have popped-up out of nothing. Not even the very first particle could have, without a cause, a reason.

Thus the universe must have begun at one particular moment. Or pherhaps our pre-universe must have, or our pre-pre-universe. But at one particular moment it must have become.

This means that there must be something outside our universe. Something beyond it's borders. Or do you expect a big wall with a sign "no passage behind this wall", and even if, what's behind that wall?

This means also that the universe must have an origin, a source, a cause.

And it means that there must have been something before the universe, or our pre-pre-pre universe came into existance.

Something that's outside our universe, which is the cause, the source, of our universe, that already was there before our universe existed........ that's something we need to look deeper into.

First, this "something" is not a part of the universe. We cannot apply the properties of the universe on something that's outside the universe. The fact that I have a red bike doens't mean I have a red car as well. Pherhaps I do have a red car, but that can't be proven by just looking at the bike.
And if you can only see my bike, you can't say anything about the color of my car. You can guess of course. So we can't know anything for sure about this "something"

This "something" might have an unlimited size, it might even be inmaterial, since it might be that 'outside our universe, our reality' inmaterial things can be independant to material things. Pherhaps material things are even dependant to inmaterial things over'there'.
This "something" doens't need to have a cause, an origin as well. Neither does it need to have a beginning. Those are all properties that do account to our universe, it doesn't have to count for it's reality as well.

Thus we have something outside our universe that became in existance before our universe and cause our universe, while it has no beginning itself neither does it have a size or a cause. And of course something that's not a part of our universe doesn't nessecarily have to obey to the natural laws of our universe. It can break those laws easily. We just plainly call such a "something" god.
God is just a word. You can name it "something" if you wish.

And this "something" apparantly created our universe. Pherhaps it only created the first particle. Pherhaps by holding to plates close to each other in a vacuum so that nothing could split into a positive and a negative particle.
Pherhaps these particles kept on splitting and growing, and finally blowed up in the first big-bang. And pherhaps this "something" is so different to us, and so superior, that it could form everything out of nothing. And created the universe as wel know it. As a giant cage for humans. A cage of almost-infinity.

I can't prove how the earth became what it is today, neither can I prove how we became what we are today. But we need something. Something to fill the gap of everything.
We, modern humans, think that since we found scientific explanations to simple things like lightning and earthquakes, we must find the explanation to everything within this "everything" (universe, reality)
That's a very optimistic thing. But we know from 'everything we know' that in the end there's always a need for an extern factor to be involved.
No painting without a painter.

In fact things should be all around.
There is a something, a god. Unless you can prove how the universe could have cause itself. Of course it's in the end nothing more but the first cause argument. And this argument will always be the only argument. And since you can't handle it, you should face it.

But I can comfort you, this "something" doesn't nessecarily have to be the christian god, the hundu god or the muslim god. Pherhaps it's not even a creative thinking "something". And pherhaps it is, but did it abandon us for billion years already.

But I wouldn't be too sure.
1948 has been prophecied 3000 years ago by people who claim they contacted this "something"
And so have many things that come into existance these days.

But that's another story.

Robert

 

[erickcid]

curt: perhaps they do feel a need to proove something they know. When you are aware of God's presence there is no room or reason to doubt. Arguing to proove existence can seem trivial. Again, the fact that you exist alone is a more convincing argument that so does God, rather than against. There was a time when people were disparate and their world was small. They did not know any better, and there borders were the world. That did not stop people from existing across the seas, or through undiscovered terrain. Again, I ask you to realize that a person whom knows God does not have to wonder or proove it exists. Knowing God is easy, set yourself aside and say hello. God does communicate in many ways. Ultimately the burden of proof or perhaps disproof is your own. You are wrong and it is that simple. Science changes, and no matter how simple the explination to you may be that God created such and such, it is one explination that has held up throughout history. You see it as ignorance, and in fact your thinking is good, because your type of doubt has caused man to accomplish a great amount of understanding of their world.

 

[CurtSibling]

@Cyber:

I have read your post in full and it contains nothing new among X-files
'tinfoil hat' stuff and unsupported claims about the nature of the universe.

We cannot at the moment make solid claims about the macro-verse around our world.
But why assume a greater being had to make it? I suppose it is one of many ideas.

None of them can be proven.

Nothing to stop you believing something that appeals to you, though.
I for one, think that there is no reason why the universe had to have a start...Or a creator.

 

[Garbarsardar.jr]

@ericKcid
There is a scientific principle called Occam's rasor.According to that in view of two equal explanations the simplest one should be the truth.Therfore, since we can explain everything without assuming the extra metaphysical baggage of a Divine Being, who created everything and then carefully removed every shred of proof for his existance; why bother?
I feel fine as I am and I dont need a God, you need one fine for you, whatever makes you feel better, but dont try to prove to me that I would be better of if I shared your beliefs. Offer some tiny proof that your ideas are based on facts and I might reconsider...

 

[CurtSibling]

curt: perhaps they do feel a need to proove something they know. When you are aware of God's presence there is no room or reason to doubt. Arguing to proove existence can seem trivial. Again, the fact that you exist alone is a more convincing argument that so does God, rather than against. There was a time when people were disparate and their world was small. They did not know any better, and there borders were the world. That did not stop people from existing across the seas, or through undiscovered terrain. Again, I ask you to realize that a person whom knows God does not have to wonder or proove it exists. Knowing God is easy, set yourself aside and say hello. God does communicate in many ways. Ultimately the burden of proof or perhaps disproof is your own. You are wrong and it is that simple. Science changes, and no matter how simple the explination to you may be that God created such and such, it is one explination that has held up throughout history. You see it as ignorance, and in fact your thinking is good, because your type of doubt has caused man to accomplish a great amount of understanding of their world.

While I can appreciate your views;
I must say that your belief in a god leaves not much room for other ideas, as you yourself have now said.

I now prompt you to look beyond the dogma you have been told and look at the reasons why men talk about a god.
Why you feel you have to follow this invisible parental figure.

My guess is because we invented it, and the idea appeals to a primal mystic side of the human mind...

Also, humans never forget the parental imprinting instinct as young ;
Hence, why many people feel they have to live there lives under the eye of this invisible 'authority parent'.

 

[Garbarsardar.jr]

Also, humans never forget the parental imprinting instinct as young ;
Hence, why many people feel they have to live there lives under the eye of this invisible 'authority parent'.

I love it when threads become psychoanalytical.Maybe we should consider a second Goodwins law about that

 

[CurtSibling]

Well, it's just a little theory of mine.

I know that many people are still immature mentally by the time they reach adulthood.

 

[anarres]

I have a few questions for the believers, ones that I still have never had an adequate answer for. Note that this is asked primarily of Christians, but some also applies to other religions.

1) Who created God?

2) Why didn't God start earlier?

3) Did time exist before God created the Heavens and the Earth?

4) If we meet aliens does this mean God created them too? How does that fit in with the Bible and the concept of God making man in his image?

5) Did God do anything else apart from create everything (no mean feat in itself, but if it only took Him 6 days then what has he done for the last few billion years?)

6) How can Jesus be "the son of God"? Is this an abstract concept? I surely hope so, but if so then can someone explain who Jesus is to me please. Historically he was just a Jew that stood up to the Romans, but I am desperate to understand his real relationship with God.

 

[erickcid]

Some empirical things that would show a sense of divine intelligence. There are 10 heavenly bodies in our solar system; the basis of our numerical system. Earth is third from the sun, the number 3 figures prominently in belief systems - trinity, ideas of oneness (mind, body, soul) etc. There are a remaining 7; also a number of spiritual and daily signifance - if you need examples ask, but I am assuming some knowledge is given, 7 also a lucky/winning number. The human brain - man having knowledge of good and evil/right and wrong/black and white - dualities - the brain is divided into two hemispheres, also containing grey matter - a blend of black & white. Consider the word "Penis". Consider the conventional wisdom "The (Pen is) mighter than the sword". The penis creates/gives life. Consider again the planets, first planet Mercury - masculine (man created first) Second planet Venus (woman created second) - also can be related to the Tao (ying,yang/male,female)... I will think of some more. Proof of divine intelligence is all around you. It is interesting that explinations giving all credit to chance are quickly snatched up. If you do not see proof around you and in you, it is because you Will not to.

 

[erickcid]

anarres:

1. God *is* existence. I use the explination the "I" of existence. The Eye being used as a symbol for god(s) throughout history is not by chance. It says to Moses I Am what I Am. If you look up and understand the meanings of those word you get the accurate picture of what it means, and indeed what God is. The image of an intelligent fish tank would do.

2. I do not understand the question or its value. It presumes too much without any knowledge. Are you questioning what God has done with itself throughout existence? That presumes a level of knowledge that we do not even have of each other. In short it was being. I am willing to give you more, if you could share your desires a bit more.

3. Time exists as long as there is someone to measure it. Perhaps you could ask the deeper question(s) you might have.

4. Possibly. God may have created the aliens or they might have simple evolved through the mechanisms that clearly and truly exist. Believing in God does not negate evolution. They go together just fine. The term likeness and image should be understood. It does not mean god looks just like us. It mean we share characteristics and personalities similar to those of God, for example emotions. Regarding Image, consider imagination. Now, imagine for me a distant planet full of life. What you have just done is create in your Imagination. Something truly powerful, and something no computer - to use a modern reference - could do as you have just done. Two things on this, your power to create in your imagination show you how you are god-like, and also consider that god created man with power like your imagination. So, as you have created the distance world in your mind, so is existence to God.

5. You presume that Earth is all there is. You also deny God time to play and enjoy his creations, or simply to watch and take part in its own way. God is eternal, and a person with extensive free time is considerably different in mannerism to one whom always is pressed.

6. Jesus was a man, and the son of God. You have heard it said that we are all God's children. We all share the same roots and family tree. We are all sons of God. The difference is that Jesus was God through God's choosing, and through his own realization of himself. In short Jesus can be the son of God the same way any of us can be, but his Life was different than ours, as was his relationship with God, and his self realization. Again, here I can add more, but I am being brief.

 

[Halcyon]

annares: I'm no Christian, as you can probably tell, but from what I've gathered, the answers would be..

1- Apparently, noone, because He's amazing and stuff. Apparently this in no way invalidates the leading 'proof' of the existence of God - that things cannot exist without being brought into existence by a sentient being. Yeah.

2- See 3. If there is no time, there is no earlier.

3- Presumably not.

4- God's either a shapeshifter or a liar. Alternatively, they could be Star Trek style aliens, in which case God just breaks his nose a lot and has a penchant for body painting. Alternatively, see 1.

5- He occasionally makes pictures of Jesus appear in vomit stains in seedy diners in Des Moines, and shows himself to complete raving lunatics on occasion, giving them instructions and politely informing them of all the people who are out to get them.

6- It's not written anywhere in the book that the guy himself even claimed to be. At least, not in earlier texts. A few of the later ones changed the phrase "son of man" into "son of God", a rather dubious piece of editing. Alternatively, the King James Bible says it, so it must be true.


erickcid: Assuming you're jot joking, your 'logic' is laughably flawed. Firstly, numerology belongs with palmistry and phrenology in the bucket of failed idiocities. You can prove anything with numerology, not least because there are so many ways of counting things. There is one inhabited planet, therefore one is magic. The Earth has one moon, making a pair, therefore two is magic. Third planet from the sun, therefore three is magic. There are four inner planets, therefore four is magic. Plus either the moon or Pluto, and five is magic. Only six are visible at night, therefore six is magic. Ten minus three is seven, therefore seven is magic. Nine planets, therefore nine is magic. Ten celestial bodies not including the Earth, ten is magic. Eleven including the earth, eleven is magic. You get the idea.

Secondly, that two words contain the same letters prove nothing. Nobody pretends that God made up the English language. How, then, does making one word out of two - any two, there are plenty of examples - count as divine providence? Also, mars is traditionally the masculine planet, so that fails before it even gets off the ground.

Proof may be all around you, but you can see proof in anything if you're determined. It's like looking around a dark room and seeing faces. They're nothing but a quirk of flawed perception.

 

[anarres]

But to counter your arguments erickcid:

* 10 is the basis of our counting system because we have 10 fingers+thumbs. 10 heavenly bodies is wholly inaccurate because we know of 9 planets atm, but actually there is considerable evidence of more planets past pluto. Also moons are heavenly bodies, as is the several thousand large asteroids in the asteroid belt, along with the millions of much smaller asteriods.

* 3 is NOT special just because of the holy trinity. If it was the "holy double" instead then I guess you would go on about how we have man and woman, or two sets of limbs, etc.

* 7 is the number of days in the week too, does this mean anything? No, it is simply a quarter of the time of a lunar month. Weeks and fortnights and months all came from our counting of the moon cycles. Does this make 7 special? No. Why should it? "10 - 3 = 7, so 7 is special"? WTH is this meant to mean? Did you know 10 + 3 = 13, so is this meant to have significance? "7 also a lucky/winning number" - only in your mind. People consider 7 "lucky" or "special" precisely because there are 7 days in the week, and when asked to pick a number between 1 and 10 most pick 7 (I can explain the psycology to you if you really want, but it is to do with the way the brain "tries" to be random).

* Dualities. Wow. So we have on and off. Black and white. Left and Right. Yep, there MUST be a God!

* Mercury is MALE? Venus is FEMALE? When did the planets aquire sex?

Sorry, but to a skeptic you sound like a looney. I really don't mean offence, but that is what it sounds like...

*

 

[erickcid]

Halcyon: My intention was to show examples of divine intelligence. It is easy to never see if you insist on being blind. People state example from their own reasoning and in fact from present existence and because they do not fit into your logic you believe you have the ability to discredit. In regards to me, you do not. Now you realize that unlike you, I know you are wrong.

 

[Pointlessness]

Some empirical things that would show a sense of divine intelligence. There are 10 heavenly bodies in our solar system; the basis of our numerical system. Earth is third from the sun, the number 3 figures prominently in belief systems - trinity, ideas of oneness (mind, body, soul) etc. There are a remaining 7; also a number of spiritual and daily signifance - if you need examples ask, but I am assuming some knowledge is given, 7 also a lucky/winning number. The human brain - man having knowledge of good and evil/right and wrong/black and white - dualities - the brain is divided into two hemispheres, also containing grey matter - a blend of black & white. Consider the word "Penis". Consider the conventional wisdom "The (Pen is) mighter than the sword". The penis creates/gives life. Consider again the planets, first planet Mercury - masculine (man created first) Second planet Venus (woman created second) - also can be related to the Tao (ying,yang/male,female)... I will think of some more. Proof of divine intelligence is all around you. It is interesting that explinations giving all credit to chance are quickly snatched up. If you do not see proof around you and in you, it is because you Will not to.

Care to use you penis against my sword in a fight, then? I bet I would win, because my sword is harder and longer!

 

[erickcid]

Pointlessness: I am a Lover... seldom a fighter.

 

[erickcid]

anarres: see my response to halycon

 

[Halcyon]

1. God *is* existence. I use the explination the "I" of existence. The Eye being used as a symbol for god(s) throughout history is not by chance. It says to Moses I Am what I Am. If you look up and understand the meanings of those word you get the accurate picture of what it means, and indeed what God is. The image of an intelligent fish tank would do.

I am what I am? I thought that was Popeye. Anyway, that 'I' sounds like 'eye' in English proves nothing. 'Je' sounds nothing like 'oeil', and 'ich' nothing like 'auge'. Unless you're still claiming English to be the divine language?

2. I do not understand the question or its value. It presumes too much without any knowledge. Are you questioning what God has done with itself throughout existence? That presumes a level of knowledge that we do not even have of each other. In short it was being. I am willing to give you more, if you could share your desires a bit more.

The question is: Apparently, the universe was created at a certain time, allegedly within the space of a specific week. Why, then, if God has always existed, wasn't it the week before? Did He have a prior engagement? If so, with whom? The dentist?

3. Time exists as long as there is someone to measure it. Perhaps you could ask the deeper question(s) you might have.

Which deeper questions would these be, oh font of wisdom?

An interesting application of the uncertainty principle, here. Perception of time may exist so long as someone exists to recieve changing sense input. It's not necessary for time itself to actually pass for someone to think it is, even if there were such an observer.

4. Possibly. God may have created the aliens or they might have simple evolved through the mechanisms that clearly and truly exist. Believing in God does not negate evolution. They go together just fine. The term likeness and image should be understood. It does not mean god looks just like us. It mean we share characteristics and personalities similar to those of God, for example emotions. Regarding Image, consider imagination. Now, imagine for me a distant planet full of life. What you have just done is create in your Imagination. Something truly powerful, and something no computer - to use a modern reference - could do as you have just done. Two things on this, your power to create in your imagination show you how you are god-like, and also consider that god created man with power like your imagination. So, as you have created the distance world in your mind, so is existence to God.

So imagining things make them real? I think we can probably dispute that..

You're also admitting that life can create itself from scratch. If you agree that this is possible, then isn't God an unnecessary hypothesis?

5. You presume that Earth is all there is. You also deny God time to play and enjoy his creations, or simply to watch and take part in its own way. God is eternal, and a person with extensive free time is considerably different in mannerism to one whom always is pressed.

He doesn't presume anything, here. Christian dogma places the Earth at the centre of the universe, albeit no longer physically. The Bible is rarely taken as proof of alien life. Rather, it's taken as an excuse for homocentrist arrogance. "We are little copies of the best thing ever, rejoice". Yeah, right.

6. Jesus was a man, and the son of God. You have heard it said that we are all God's children. We all share the same roots and family tree. We are all sons of God. The difference is that Jesus was God through God's choosing, and through his own realization of himself. In short Jesus can be the son of God the same way any of us can be, but his Life was different than ours, as was his relationship with God, and his self realization. Again, here I can add more, but I am being brief.

So, if everyone is the direct offspring of some mystical bloke called Yahweh, then regarding the obvious marital issues, what's so damn special about one particular person holding that accolade? Also, why does his life get a capital letter? Regardless, the life of a man (or woman) who thinks he hears the voice of God in his head is different to most of ours, as is his relationship with God (it'd be a personal relationship, at least as far as he is concerned), so that point is rather weak.

 

[Halcyon]

Halcyon: My intention was to show examples of divine intelligence. It is easy to never see if you insist on being blind. People state example from their own reasoning and in fact from present existence and because they do not fit into your logic you believe you have the ability to discredit. In regards to me, you do not. Now you realize that unlike you, I know you are wrong.

I refer you to the tale of the Emperor's New Clothes, wherein people suffer from an argument similar to yours, here. If you can't see what I say I can see, you must be blind, stupid or incompetent! Nyah nyah!

If an argument is completely illogical and irrational, and contradicts any and all fair observations, then I think I'm quite justified in not believing it. The alternative is to believe something while knowing that it's utter rubbish, which is lunacy, not to mention repulsive.

You also seem to be having some sort of grammatical breakdown. Now you unlike me to say what which them go to hi?

 

[erickcid]

By definition just about anything you can think of is divine, as the rough definition is of, from, or like god or a god. Presuming a knowledge of God's existence, and presuming God is at the heart of our creation.

Why do we do anything we do when we do? Because we do. It is no different from you deciding to play Civ 3 at 8:30 instead of 11. This strikes me as just plain dumb.

My statement was not directed at you.

Imagination is the start of new physical and material things. You can make things with your mind, and hands. God can create as you can create in your imagination. It is a more advanced being in this manner, but your imagination gives you the understanding of creation. Don't be ignorant just because you have doubt.

Yes, I do believe life creates itself, evolves, and can come from what would be classified as not life. This knowledge does not discredit God. You dont have to be with God, believe in God, like God, etc, that does not stop it from being. I am not trying to force a perspective on you. Saying God does not exist is simply wrong.

I do not subscribe to christian dogma nor am I a member of any religion. I do not see these issues in that perspective. I suppose we have nothing to discuss here.

Anytime a proper name is written a capital letter is correctly used. Jesus was. What he is to you is up to you. This no different from any great person in history.

 

[erickcid]

halcyon: very well.