Prove God Exists - Act Three

[CurtSibling]

Care to use you penis against my sword in a fight, then? I bet I would win, because my sword is harder and longer!

Keep the debate mature, please!

 

[CurtSibling]

I am not trying to force a perspective on you. Saying God does not exist is simply wrong.

How self-contradictory is this sentence.

I say gods do not exist - It's a point of view, not wrong.

I do no call your stealth-sermon wrong, so please keep things in perspective.

 

[erickcid]

Curtsibling: But you *are* wrong.

 

[CurtSibling]

Curtsibling: But you *are* wrong.

Then add some substance to that claim.

Prove it.

 

[erickcid]

curt: your art links in your sig are impressive.

 

[CurtSibling]

curt: your art links in your sig are impressive.

Thanks, old chap.
Funny time to mention it, though!

Now about that evidence?

 

[Plotinus]

6) How can Jesus be "the son of God"? Is this an abstract concept? I surely hope so, but if so then can someone explain who Jesus is to me please. Historically he was just a Jew that stood up to the Romans, but I am desperate to understand his real relationship with God.

Very briefly: "son of God" was a common term in Jesus' day to refer to those who were, in some way, close to God. It comes often in the Old Testament to refer to the Jews in general. When people describe Jesus as "son of God" in the Gospels - which happens rarely - they mean that he is someone who is close to God and who can call on him in prayer. Similar things were said of other famous Jewish holy men.

According to the Gospels, what Jesus actually called himself was "son of man", an apocalyptic term from Daniel 7:13. The "Son of Man" was a figure who appeared at the coming of the Kingdom of God. By using this term, Jesus was focusing attention on the coming Kingdom. He wasn't saying anything about his relationship with God.

Most scholars agree that the lengthy discourses in John's Gospel, in which Jesus goes on at great length about himself ("the Son") and God ("the Father") represent later theological reflection and have little to do with the teaching of Jesus himself. The Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) are the main source for Jesus' teaching on most matters.

The early Christains called Jesus "Christ", meaning "Messiah", a term found rarely in the Old Testament but which refers to a human figure associated with the coming of God's Kingdom, rather like the Son of Man. To describe someone as the Messiah was not to assume they were anything other than an ordinary human being. The Dead Sea Scrolls community believed in two Messiahs, whilst military leaders in the later Jewish revolts would later be identified by some as Messiahs.

It was later, after New Testament times, that Christians identified Jesus with God. The classical statement was issued by the Council of Chalcedon in 451, which stated that Jesus was and remains fully God and fully human, not a half-and-half crossbreed like Mr Spock, not two people sort of cooperating, and with no mixture. Not all Christians accepted this, and some still do not (for example, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Persian Church of the East).

It was also during this period that knowledge of what first-century Jews meant by the terms that come in the New Testament was forgotten. Christians became used to thinking that "Son of Man" referred to Jesus' humanity and that "Son of God" referred to his divinity, in Chalcedonian terms. As I've pointed out, this was a mistake. Today, many - if not most - people don't really understand what terms like "Son of God" meant to Jesus and to those of his day, so I don't think it's very helpful to use them.

 

[Plotinus]

How self-contradictory is this sentence.

I say gods do not exist - It's a point of view, not wrong.

I do no call your stealth-sermon wrong, so please keep things in perspective.

Either gods exist or they do not. If they do, those who deny it are wrong. If they do not, those who deny that are wrong. It's not just a "point of view", any more than arguing over whether the earth is flat or round is a "point of view". It's possible to say that I think you are wrong in something but still not force my view on you. I might be happy for you to remain in the wrong.

 

[Halcyon]

By definition just about anything you can think of is divine, as the rough definition is of, from, or like god or a god. Presuming a knowledge of God's existence, and presuming God is at the heart of our creation.

That's a religious belief you hold, based on faith. Faith has no regard for truth - if you believed that the moon was made of cheese, it would not make it so. Equally, if you believe that God is everywhere, that does not make God exist. So far as an outsider can tell, you're most likely just delusional.

Why do we do anything we do when we do? Because we do. It is no different from you deciding to play Civ 3 at 8:30 instead of 11. This strikes me as just plain dumb.

Nonsense. If I made a decision to go and play Civ or create the universe, I would probably do so as soon as I was able to. If there was nothing stopping me, then that time would be the moment that I made the decision. The only thing that would stop me would be having to do something else first. If I then decided to create the universe at 8:30, I would not start doing so at 11 unless there were something more pressing which required two and a half hours of my time. However, if nothing exists, there's not a lot to do. Why, then, didn't I decide to do it at 8:00? The only explaination is that I hadn't thought of it yet. Not a very godly excuse, that.

My statement was not directed at you.

Imagination is the start of new physical and material things. You can make things with your mind, and hands. God can create as you can create in your imagination. It is a more advanced being in this manner, but your imagination gives you the understanding of creation. Don't be ignorant just because you have doubt.

Not true. Many things come into existence without the use of a drop of imagination. They're called accidents, or chance occurences. In fact, many things done intentionally by a sentient beings don't require imagination either, like walking up the stairs or going to the toilet. Even 'creative' activities don't require you to imagine the outcome before you start - you can just do it as you go along.

Don't be ignorant just because you hate doubt. Being sure is not the same as being right. This is religion's attraction and its failure - it offers a solid explanation for all those difficult questions, but it's not necessarily the true explaination. To find the true explaination, you must have doubt - doubt means you question things. How can you find the truth without looking for it, and how do you look for the truth while not asking questions?

Yes, I do believe life creates itself, evolves, and can come from what would be classified as not life. This knowledge does not discredit God. You dont have to be with God, believe in God, like God, etc, that does not stop it from being. I am not trying to force a perspective on you. Saying God does not exist is simply wrong.

Why is it wrong? Do you have proof? If so, out with it. As previously explained, neither numerology or vapid statements are proof. There is absolutely nothing which can only be explained by the existence of God, hence it's an unnecessary hypothesis, like believing that the Sun is pushed through the sky by a giant dung beetle.

I do not subscribe to christian dogma nor am I a member of any religion. I do not see these issues in that perspective. I suppose we have nothing to discuss here.

You realise that that statement is completely contrary to everything else that you have so far written. To whose dogma do you subscribe?

Anytime a proper name is written a capital letter is correctly used. Jesus was. What he is to you is up to you. This no different from any great person in history.

Only for proper nouns. The guy may have had a life, but not a Life, which was my point, minor as it may be. I suggest you not attempt to lecture me on grammar. It'd be a contest you could not win.



Everyday life requires one to ask for at least a minimum of evidence before believing something to be true. If you don't, you're labelled incredibly gulliable and end up buying the Statue of Liberty from some dodgy bloke with a bad moustache. By the same principle, one does not run off and beleve whatever the local mad cleric says unless he can back up his statements. Traditionally, of course, they back it up with persecution of heretics, but that's another matter entirely.

 

[CurtSibling]

Either gods exist or they do not. If they do, those who deny it are wrong. If they do not, those who deny that are wrong. It's not just a "point of view", any more than arguing over whether the earth is flat or round is a "point of view". It's possible to say that I think you are wrong in something but still not force my view on you. I might be happy for you to remain in the wrong.

To cut a swathe through this rhetoric, you believe in god and anyone else is wrong, then?

Well, in which case I ask you to add some substance to such a lofty claim.

Let's hear it - Minus bible fan-fiction too.

 

[nihilistic]

Some empirical things that would show a sense of divine intelligence. There are 10 heavenly bodies in our solar system; the basis of our numerical system. Earth is third from the sun, the number 3 figures prominently in belief systems - trinity, ideas of oneness (mind, body, soul) etc. There are a remaining 7; also a number of spiritual and daily signifance - if you need examples ask, but I am assuming some knowledge is given, 7 also a lucky/winning number. The human brain - man having knowledge of good and evil/right and wrong/black and white - dualities - the brain is divided into two hemispheres, also containing grey matter - a blend of black & white. Consider the word "Penis". Consider the conventional wisdom "The (Pen is) mighter than the sword". The penis creates/gives life. Consider again the planets, first planet Mercury - masculine (man created first) Second planet Venus (woman created second) - also can be related to the Tao (ying,yang/male,female)... I will think of some more. Proof of divine intelligence is all around you. It is interesting that explinations giving all credit to chance are quickly snatched up. If you do not see proof around you and in you, it is because you Will not to.

Numerology? Astrology? Bogus analogies? Never mind that your arithmetic there is wrong too ... who are you trying to convince? The village idiot?

While at first impression erickcid may have sounded like a dumbass, you have to agree that by the time he posted this message, it is clear that he is either a person devoid of any sign of intelligence or a troll, neither of which is worth paying attention to. I ask everybody of similar opinions to simply ignore his posts, at least on this thread. Don't feed the troll.

 

[Pointlessness]

Ignore? No way! That "penis" thing is hilarious!

 

[Plotinus]

[CurtSibling] No, I am an atheist. I have no idea why you assume otherwise. I didn't post any "Bible fan fiction", I was describing the consensus of most scholars on what "son of God" means for the benefit of the person who asked some posts earlier. If you had read it you would notice that I say that much of the Bible is not true.

You also didn't read the post that you quote very closely. Or perhaps I didn't put it very clearly. What I meant was this. Forget God for a moment. Think of statement X. Either X is true or X is not true. Therefore, anyone who believes X is right (if in fact X is true) or wrong (if in fact X is false). Therefore, if I personally believe X, then I must believe that anyone who believes "not-X" is wrong in that belief. Similarly, if I believe not-X, then I must believe that anyone who believes X is wrong. That's just logic. The point I was trying to make was that believing that someone else is wrong does not entail my trying to impose my views on them. For example, I believe that anyone who believes in God is wrong, but I'm not trying to make them change their minds. I also think that anyone who thinks the world is flat is wrong, but they can continue in that belief as far as I'm concerned. What I was contesting in your post was what I thought was the illogical conflation of two statements ("I believe that you are wrong in thinking X", and "I want you to believe not-X").

 

[Perfection]

Curtsibling: But you *are* wrong.

CurtSibling is never wrong.

 

[ainwood]

Care to use you penis against my sword in a fight, then? I bet I would win, because my sword is harder and longer!

Moderator Action: erickcid used a reference to a penis in context to prove a point. You used it in a locker-room snigger-snigger manner, which I am not amused by. Keep the discussions mature or stay out of them.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[BassDude726]

Trying to convince an atheist that God is real is like trying to teach Bush how to prononce "nuclear". It's not possible.

Being a non-religious person myself, I don't involve myself in these types of debates usually. But I think this quote from some book (was it the Bible?) sums this argument up perfectly:

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

 

[Perfection]

Actually I say it should be:

"You can lead a horse to poison, but you can't make him drink."

 

[erickcid]

All: I just woke and have played catch-up on the posts. I do appreciate all the responses. It is tedious to go back and forth. Insult hurling does not help either, therefore my activity on this thread will be limited. There is a passage early in the Qu'ran that states "As for those who are bent upon denying (the truth), they would not believe, because it is all the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them. (With the result that) Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and on their eyes is a covering." This type of thing is also shown in the Bible when God states to Moses that he will harden pharoah's heart causing his behavior to be as he willed.

nihilistic: Do not insult me.

 

[King Alexander]

Religious people imagine God as a purely Good being, and as such offer little understanding for evils that are present. This type of presentation is also ignorant, and can be off putting to those whom do not see the world through their eyes

That's right. Good and Evil are not separated: in fact, they're the same, if you can understand what I mean. Good actions made from a person are viewd as Evil actions by someone else and vice versa. Good can't exist without Evil and vice versa. Life and Death are the same for our Universe. Death creates Life, and Life creates Death.

- Everything in the universe has a limited size. There's nothing that has an infinite size.

Who says that? The universe itself keeps expanding as we're talking. I'll give you a small example to understand: A black hole keeps expanding "consuming" the stars that are near it first.

- Everything in the universe has an origin / former shape. There's nothing that has ever popped out of plain nothing.

You're wrong. The universe's creation(and everything that were created after that), proove you wrong.

I can't prove how the earth became what it is today, neither can I prove how we became what we are today. But we need something. Something to fill the gap of everything.

We certainly don't know all: we're researching and trying to find out everything.

But I can comfort you, this "something" doesn't nessecarily have to be the christian god, the hundu god or the muslim god. Pherhaps it's not even a creative thinking "something". And pherhaps it is, but did it abandon us for billion years already.

You're wrong to say "this something abandoned us for billion years already". It never abandoned us: It still exists through us in another shape. The same elements that created us, could be fatal for our current form. We can't breath from water anymore(only in our first stages as an embryo). Life is a constant evolution; I'd say Death is also an evolution. Without Death, Life can't exist.

 

[erickcid]

King Alexander: Yes, I do. The Tao (ying/yang) comes to mind. Interestingly enough, I am subscribed to this thread, and just as I think that I notice this - here is the link for your message...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90069&goto=newpost

The number 69 features rather prominently, no doubt to illustrate your point to me. It are one of the tiny miracles that I am witness to everyday. That said, I know God, and do not seek proof, but in knowing you are witness to Life through new eyes.