Prove God Exists - Act Three

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Phydeaux said:
Well the fact that we are here is a very big evidence. Would you not at least admit that from what we know today it seams that there would have to be a creator?
Not really. There is no evidence that whatever caused us to come into being (if there is a cause) has to be an intelligent god entity.
 
Our creator is a comet. It passed very close to Earth, and deposited the necessary chemicals and elements necessary for primitve life to form in the primordial soup of the new planet.
Before everyone jumps on me and says "there's no evidence to support that!", I'm just putting it out there to show that there are alternatives to the God-created-us-all school of thought.
 
Blasphemous said:
No. What I said is that within science things can be proven. I don't consider anything proven if it falls when logic is applied to it. I think for something to be considered proven you need a method and that method is the one, the only, Scientific Method. If you have some alternative method that proves god is real, please do tell us about it!

Well yes, it's the spiritual, but we have already been through that.
Any way, things could be said to be with in reason, but reason changes as science changes, all we can do is use the science untell it has been changed or deleted. If you say that some thing doesn't prove God, well duh... But I guess that you guys ment is show evidence that through logic brings us to believe that there is a God.
 
Perfection said:
Not really. There is no evidence that whatever caused us to come into being (if there is a cause) has to be an intelligent god entity.

The fact is there is matter, this matter has not been here forever, and Some Thing had to create it. This would be called a Creator, He may not be here today, It may not be even a He but there must have been a Creator at one time, is this not logical?
 
BassDude726 said:
Our creator is a comet. It passed very close to Earth, and deposited the necessary chemicals and elements necessary for primitve life to form in the primordial soup of the new planet.
Before everyone jumps on me and says "there's no evidence to support that!", I'm just putting it out there to show that there are alternatives to the God-created-us-all school of thought.

I ment as in every thing, sorry about that. I ment as in matter it's self.
 
Phydeaux:

your basic assumption is that matter (=energy) has not been in existence forever - how do you know???????

and what is that creator made off if not matter and or energy? circular logic here, my friend!
 
FredLC said:
Well, my reply to the rest will have to wait - I am out of home until mondey night, and typing a long reply from here (my parents), well, only if and when I come across some free hours, what is uncertain.

On Monday I'm off to Spain until July 11. I will not be reading or posting from Monday AM until I get back. Don't rush your reply on my behalf. :D
 
carlosMM said:
Phydeaux:
your basic assumption is that matter (=energy) has not been in existence forever - how do you know???????

and what is that creator made off if not matter and or energy? circular logic here, my friend!

Maybe his creator is not made of matter/energy, but of something we haven't thought (dreamed) of yet.
 
carlosMM said:
Phydeaux:

your basic assumption is that matter (=energy) has not been in existence forever - how do you know???????

Because we know that it will not last forever and through that we can use logic, and find out that if it can not last forever it could not be here forever.
I can not prove it, but logicly we can see that.

carlosMM said:
and what is that creator made off if not matter and or energy? circular logic here, my friend!

Well if It would be God It would be spiritual, God created matter, before then there was no matter, so np. In other words God is not part of the laws He created.
 
The Logical Rock
Can God create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it? This is a question commonly asked of believers, a question with no logical answer. The question's purpose is to prove that it's impossible for a being to be omnipotent. If God can create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it, then there is a rock of a certain weight that God is incapable of lifting, and, therefore, God is not omnipotent. If God can't create a rock heavy enough, then there is a certain rock that he can't create, and is, therefore, not omnipotent. In either case, God can't be omnipotent. Let me state right now that I'm writing this article not to present this well known question to believers, but rather, to dispute its validity. I may be an atheist, but first and foremost, I am a skeptic, and if I find an argument being used by atheists against believers that I deem flawed, it's my obligation to express my views on it.

Let's agree that God can lift all rocks -- rocks have the property of being able to be lifted by God, that is, if we assume God's omnipotence. If we say, then, that there is a rock that God cannot lift, then quite simply, by definition, this rock isn't a rock. God can lift all rocks. Therefore, if there's something that God can't lift, then it can't be a rock. Given this new perspective on the terms involved, we can see that what is really being asked is, "Can God create a rock that isn't a rock?". The answer, quite simply, is no. God can't create a rock that isn't a rock, for such a thing would be logically impossible. Whether or not the inability to do the logically impossible would place a limit on God's omnipotence is questionable. Personally, I don't think it would. Logically impossible concepts are exactly that -- concepts, and nothing more, like a married bachelor, or a square circle. They are a contradiction in terms, impossible to be in existence by definition. The logically impossible is.. impossible. Can God do the impossible? Of course he can't. No one can do the impossible, by the definition of the word impossible.

The answer to the aforementioned question requires that we deconstruct and abandon the logic with which we asked the question in the first place. It's a weak argument, and it's my opinion that it shouldn't be used.

Faith and Its Problems
Somehow, the Christians have managed to brainwash themselves into thinking that faith somehow justifies their belief in a deity. Faith is central to the Christian religion, and all "true" Christians are required to have a significant amount of it. After asking a person what their reason for believing in an invisible sky pixie is, the answer is often "faith". I'm not entirely sure how faith became the most common answer to such questions, but one thing is for certain: the Christians who think in this manner have no idea what faith really is, and more importantly, what it implies when one must resort to it.

Faith is defined as belief without evidence that supports the belief. Having faith in the existence of God quite simply means that there is no evidence supporting his existence. That is, after all, exactly what faith is. I find it amusing when a Christian claims that he or she has found irrefutable proof of God, for such a thing would make faith of this sort impossible. Belief isn't faith if the belief has been proven. Seeing as faith is so important to Christianity, proof of the existence of God would actually be rather detrimental to their principles.

Consider the statement "I believe because I have faith." I personally have encountered this statement many times when arguing with Christians. Let's examine this reasoning more closely. If faith is defined as belief without evidence, then the statement can be rewritten as, "I believe because I believe without evidence," which essentially means, "I believe because I believe." This is purely circular reasoning. The same kind of logic is used by five-year-olds when asked a "why" question. Ask a child of that age why he did a certain thing, and he may very well answer "Because," and nothing more. Ask him, "because why?", and he will again reply with, "Because." The same circular logic is used by Christians when answering why questions with faith. Faith, therefore, is not an answer of any kind to questions concerning the reasons for religious belief.

Suppose for a minute that faith did somehow justify a belief in God. If it can be used as reasoning for the belief in one god, then why not another? If having faith in the Christian god somehow makes the belief in him valid, then wouldn't it also validate a belief in Zeus, Odin, or Thor? If Christians are supported in their beliefs, then so are members of every other religion with a belief in a deity.

The only reason that faith is a major part of Christianity is that there simply is no evidence for the existence of God. Christians must resort to faith because there is, and never will be, proof of God. If there were, then they would be using it in their arguments, not just depending on blind, baseless, and irrational dogmatic beliefs.
what do you think of that
 
Lord Draegon said:
Can God create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?

The real question is: "Can an omnipotent god limit his powers?"
 
The Speed of Light
Light travels at the incredible speed of 186,000 miles per second. As fast as this is, it is still not nearly fast enough to cover the known universe in a short time. Because of the enormous size of the universe, we measure the distance between stars, galaxies, and clusters of galaxies in light years. A light year is the distance that light travels, at 186,000 miles per second, in one year. That's about 5.8 trillion miles. Now, if we say that something is ten light years away, that means that it would take light ten years to go from earth to that distant point. How is any of this relevant to creationism and the age of the universe?

We can tell how far away certain objects are through many independent methods. We've known that some galaxies are as far away as a billion light years for quite some time now. As I said before, a billion light years means that it would take light a billion years to travel that distance. The problem is that we can see these distant objects -- we can detect their light. The light that we detect with our eyes and our computers travelled that huge distance of a billion light years to reach earth. Again, let me remind you that light travels at a fixed rate -- it never changes. Now, for that light to travel those billion light years, it would have to have been travelling for a billion years. The only problem is, according to the bible, the universe is only about 6,000 years old. If that were true, then the light from these distant galaxies would only have had enough time to travel 6,000 light years -- they would not have reached earth yet. But we know that the light from those galaxies has reached earth, and that that light has been travelling for a billion years. For that light to travel from those distant galaxies to earth, it would have to have been given a billion years worth of time. Unfortunately, according to the bible, that amount of time has not passed yet. If the bible were true, then the most distant objects we would be able to see would be about 6,000 light years away, because anything further than that would not have enough time to send its light to us.

This argument is proof that the universe is older than the bible says it is. All defenses against it use an a priori bias against an old earth, and are therefore worthless. The bible is wrong.

The Fall
The fall of man, the eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, is central to the Christian religion. Christianity operates on the basic premise that man is fundamentally flawed, and has been since the first sin was committed by Adam and Eve in the beginning of Genesis. In eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command, and thus permanently tainted man with sin. This flaw necessitates some kind of savior, a martyr to pay the price for man's sin. Many religions believe in the same concept of sin and savior and have their own messiahs. In Christianity's case, the messiah is Jesus. Without original sin, there is no need for Jesus, and Christianity's most important pillar collapses.

Here, I will be citing and explaining the primary flaws of what will be called the Fall. This article alone should be enough to provoke Christians to seriously question their faith, but then again, theists' actions never cease to amaze me. Let's begin.

Firstly, we should consider the fact that God is omniscient. As I've stated in many previous articles, this means that he is all knowing, in possession of all that there is to be known -- including knowledge of what will happen in the future. God, then, knew that man would sin before he even created the universe. He knew perfectly well of the implications of this, that he would be forced to expel man from the paradise known as Eden, that he would have to flood the entire planet with water to rid the land of sinners, that most of the human population would be doomed to hell, and that he would have to send his only begotten son to be a martyr. God went ahead and created man nevertheless. Any sane person would question why such an allegedly benevolent being would perform an act as sadistic as this. Surely, God, being omnipotent and omniscient, could have found a way to achieve his goals that didn't involve as much suffering as this. Unless, of course, God's goal is to cause suffering.

The argument is often made that such trials and tribulations were necessary to make man who he is today, and to make him worthy of the journey that is ahead. Again, God, being omnipotent, by definition, could have found literally countless other ways to bring this about with little or no suffering involved. If God is omnibenevolent, then certainly, he would have chosen a more humane alternative, but the Bible claims that man is indeed flawed, so we know what path God chose for us. The only conceivable reason God would choose such a path for us is that he wanted us to suffer, plain and simple. The more likely explanation, of course, is that God simply doesn't exist.

Man isn't the only one that suffered because of sin. Almost every species on this planet has been negatively affected by man. That's an understatement. Thousands of species have been destroyed by us, simply wiped off the planet. It happened because man is greedy, with an unquenchable thirst for land, oil, water, lumber, money, and most of everything else. God saw this coming as well, but he did nothing to stop it. The animal rights activists should be all over God for this one. God knew damn well that man would grow to be sinful, and he knew damn well that every other species would suffer, but for whatever divine reason, he went along with his plans anyway.

I am, of course, only joking. The destruction we have caused is our fault alone, and blaming anything on an evasive deity would only be avoiding responsibility. I should stay on topic, however. Either the Christian god is wicked, or he doesn't exist. You make the call.

Another major problem with the fall is that of morality. Man was punished for disobeying God. We can clearly see why such an act was punishable: it was immoral. Betraying someone's trust, especially your god's, is immoral. Adam and Eve, being sentient beings, knew the difference between right and wrong, made the wrong choice, and were punished for it. Wait, stop there.

Adam and Eve, at the time, didn't know the difference between right and wrong, between good and evil. To have such knowledge, one had to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Before they ate from the tree, Adam and Eve didn't know the difference between good and bad, and like a newborn baby, couldn't be blamed for their crime! This statement is of such importance, let me repeat it: when Adam and Eve first sinned, they did not know the difference between good and evil because they hadn't eaten from the tree yet, and therefore could not have been justly blamed for their crimes. They were ignorant of morality, of the value of trust.

One could argue that, while they didn't know the difference between good and bad, Adam and Eve still should have obeyed God for fear of dying. First of all, Adam and Eve had never experienced death before. They had hardly even experienced life. The term "death" most likely meant nothing to them. They weren't, after all, omniscient, like God. Secondly, is fear a good reason to do something? Women in sexist cultures should wear veils over their faces because they'll be beaten if they don't. Followers of religions other than the state's in the middle ages should abandon their beliefs because they'll be burned if they don't. Making a punishment for an act doesn't make it immoral. Submitting to such a threat would only be in their self interest.

Adam and Eve were incapable of seeing the moral problems with betraying their god, and they were also unaware of the implications of death. They should have been blameless for their crime, but God cursed their entire species for it.

I'm surprised that Christians never question why the sins of Adam and Eve carried on to their sons and daughters for all future generations. The number of people that were cursed because of two people's mistakes is simply staggering. The extent and intensity of the punishment hardly seems fair for the crime committed, and that's assuming that it can even be considered a crime, and given what I just discussed, it really shouldn't be. How, exactly, is it fair for people who were born hundreds of years after Adam's death to be punished for his crimes? Think about it: does this sound fair to you? Two people commit a crime, and their entire species is permanently cursed for it. Does this sound like the work of a benevolent god?

I hope this sheds some light on the subject of the Fall. Its problems are some of the most devastating to Christianity, and they're important to understand.

oh yeah what about that
 
Hmmm Your last thread was closed and you are repeating the posts here.
 
Yup, Here's some more
Rain and Mountains
This is one of the problems that I illustrate to creationists that I just recently met, the reason being that it's very easy to comprehend, and, once understood, anyone can see why it presents such a large problem for the Noah's Ark myth of the bible. The argument goes like this: according to the bible, the flood that supposedly destroyed our world some four thousand years ago was so catastrophic that it covered even the highest mountains completely. As is well known, the highest mountain in the world is Mt. Everest, which stands at a straggeringly high 29,000 feet. This means that Noah's flood had to have made water rise all over the world to at least 29,000 feet. If it didn't, then Mt. Everest wouldn't have been covered. Also according to the bible, all of this rain fell in forty days. Let's examine what this implies.

My objective here is to show you how fast rain would have to fall to cover all the mountain tops in forty days. How do we find that out? Well, it should be noted that rainfall is measured in units per hour, not day. You don't hear the weatherman telling you that your area encountered 3 inches per day downfalls. He expresses it in hours. So let's convert our forty days into hours. 24 hours a day, forty days, that means 960 hours. So 29,000 feet of water fell in 960 hours. Before I tell you how much that is, let me explain something. Rainfall is measured in inches per hour. Why not feet? Because the only place that a foot of rain can fall in one hour is in the tropical rainforest, and even there it's a stretch. A foot per hour rains is so hard that it is likely to hurt you. You wouldn't be able to see your own hand in those kinds of rains, even if you held it a foot away from your face. Back to our answer. 29,000 feet in 960 hours. That means that everywhere, all over the earth, 30 feet per hour rains were falling down.

Thirty feet per hour rains. That isn't rain. That's more like several high pressure firehoses focused on one spot. Thirty feet per hour rains would destroy houses. It would demolish cars with ease. Noah's little boat would be crushed by these rains. There is no way that Noah and his ark would have survived such conditions. Keep in mind that the ark was built out of wood. There is no question about it: Noah and his family would be dead within minutes, along with the animals that were supposed to repopulate the earth. This is an incredible flaw in the bible.

Defenses Against the Argument

Every time I present an argument to a creationist, I ask him or her for a defense that does not use God. Why aren't they allowed to use God? Using God to solve your religion's problems makes your theory unfalsifiable. If I were Hindu, I could use my gods to fix any errors with my holy book, and Hindiusm would be right up there with Christianity. Any religion that has powerful gods can quickly fix up any alleged contradictions with their myths, and that's exactly why I don't let them use God. For more information on this, read my article on creation "science" in general. It goes into much more detail.

Now, back to the defenses against the rain argument. The only one that I seem to hear nowadays is the one about the height of mountains. Creationists claim that mountains weren't nearly as high when the flood took place as they are now. It is a well known fact that mountains move incredibly slowly. It's basically the result of large chunks of rock pushing on each, forcing the edges of the rock to be thrusted upwards, although the word "thrusted" makes it seem a lot faster than it really is. Because of how slow mountains move, one must ask, "how did the mountains go from being very low (about 8,000 feet according to most of the creationists I've talked to) to the staggering height of 29,000 feet in a mere 4,000 years?". At normal rates, there is no way that the mountains could have shot up that quickly (4,000 years, as long as it may seem, is quicker than the blink of an eye to the rates of slow processes such as plate techtonics*). To this, the creationists simply tell us that large amounts of volcanic activity made them shoot up. Unfortunately for our fundamentalist friends, there is no way that enough volcanic activity could spring up out of nowhere to cause all mountains to start rising so fast, then stop just as abruptly. Such a thing is completely unheard of. What could have caused so much volcanic activity? The creationists, although even they probably don't like doing it, have to resort to God on this one. Basically, they say that God made the mountains rise really fast, then made them go really slowly. What evidence do they have of this? None. What reason do they have for thinking that this is true? None. The only people who would think that God fiddled with the earth just to deceive us all are the people that already believe that the bible is true. This is circular reasoning. They say that the bible is true. I say no and show them some flaws, such as the rain argument. They reply that these aren't flaws -- God can fix them up. I ask them how they know God did any of that. They tell me they know because the bible is true, which brings us back to the beginning.

Creationists never cease to amaze me in their blind faith and stupidity. They'll work out any bizarre, completely unsupported scheme to fix their problems that they can. The bible says it, therefore, it has to be true. This is the reasoning of the creationist.

* Actually, it's likely to be much less than four thousand years. We know that the mountains have been relatively the same height for quite a while. As far as recorded history goes back, people thought that mountains were stationary. This may limit the amount of time for the mountains to raise to less than 3,000 years.

The Size of the Ark
The problem of the size of the ark is so rudimentary, so painfully obvious, that it's astounding that anyone with the slightest hint of intelligence would not notice it, given the facts. According to Genesis 6:15, God told Noah to make the ark three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide, and thirty cubits high. A cubit is equal to about 1.5 feet, so the ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. The bible says that Noah was to take two of each unclean animal and seven of each clean animal. In all honesty, I do not know what an unclean animal is, so I'm going to assume that there are only two of each animal for simplicity's sake. I have asked several people what an unclean animal is, and none of them really seem to know. (If you know, I'd appreciate it if you told me.) Let's think about this. There are millions of species of animals on this planet, and a good chunk of them live on the land. According to the bible, Noah basically took anything that lived on land or had wings. That means Noah was required to bring along two of each species of mammal, reptile, bird, amphibian, and insect. The insect group alone has millions of species, and combined with the other animals that Noah had to bring, the number of species is astronomical. Take that number and double it, and you will have the number of animals that Noah had on his ark (doubling it because there are two of each species).

There is absolutely no way that so many animals could have fit into the ark, and no one disagrees with me, not even the creationists. The creationists know that it would be impossible to have so many animals in one space. Instead, they claim that when the bible speaks of Noah taking two of each "kind" of animal, it refers not to species, as anyone would believe without being told otherwise, but one of the higher groups of classification, and that he then breeded the kinds into the animals that we see today. Taxonomists classify animals by grouping them into categories that are more and more specific. The categories are as follows: kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, and species, kingdom being the most general, and species being the most specific. Which of these groups the word "kind" refers to has not been made clear by the creationists, although I'm quite sure that it's none of them, seeing as this system of classification was invented thousands of years after the flood. So, if "kind" doesn't refer to species, then what does it refer to? The creationists never really say, but to me, it doesn't matter, because you can't take two dogs and two wolves and make all the species of dogs and wolves we see today. You simply can't do it. It's genetically impossible. The genes for all of the traits of every kind of dog species are not in one dog, nor are all of the genes for all of the traits of every kind of wolf species in one wolf. To get all of the different genes that are present in each species of dog (and that are required to breed the dog into existence), you need many dogs. You can't have the genes for green eyes, blue eyes and brown eyes all in one person, can you? You can't have the genes for short and floppy ears, long and floppy ears, and long and hard ears all in one dog, can you? Of course you can't. You need many people to carry all of the genes for eye color or hair color or skin color. You need many dogs to carry all of the genes for ear structure or hair color. One person cannot have blonde, brown, black and red hair all at the same time. You would need two people for that. (I say two instead of four because each person actually has two genes for each trait such as eye color or hair color, it's just that only one shows up [unless both are mutually dominant or recessive, let's not get into that]. One person would carry blonde and black, another would carry brown and red.)

There is a trade-off between the number of animals that you bring on the ark and the number of animals you can create from those animals. If you bring a lot of animals on the ark, two of each species, then you'll have all of the species after the flood, but you'll have a size problem. If you bring few animals on the ark, two of each family, you'll have enough room, but you'll be missing most of the animals that you were supposed to have saved. Either way, you've got a serious problem. But let's give the creationists the benefit of the doubt for a minute, and suppose that it is somehow possible to "cram" all of the necessary genes into very few animals. I've been talking about breeding dogs and wolves, which sounds rather practical and pretty believable. It's easy to breed dogs because they're domesticated. So what about the non domesticated animals? While you can imagine Noah and his family breeding dogs into the species that they didn't save, it's rather hard to imagine them breeding dinosaurs, salamanders or beetles. Breeding dogs is practical; breeding sloths is not. It's especially hard to imagine Noah and his family keeping so many animals under control, regulating the breeding so that the right genes get mixed together to form the animals that weren't saved. They would have to have been controlled because the likeliness that the original species would be born by random chance is incredibly small. If they weren't controlled, then entirely new species would arise rather than the old ones.

Trying to breed back to life all of the species that Noah didn't take with him with a few animals from each family is ridiculous. It's impossible. It's impractical. Noah had to take all of the species with him. Claiming that the bible means a larger group of taxonomy when it says kind is only done to explain away the problem proposed by the size of the ark. But the animals are not the biggest problem for the size of the ark. It's their food that's the real problem. Noah and his animal friends were on the ark for about a year (although it only rained for forty days, it took the rest of the year for the water to dry up). That means that Noah had to have brought along enough food to sustain each creature for a year. The amount of food needed to sustain the animals would, I imagine, take up more than twice the amount of space as the animals themselves. Suppose that the average human eats one pound a day. I'm pretty sure it's more that, but for simplicity, let's say it's a pound a day. That means that in one year, a human would eat 365 pounds of food. That's more than twice the weight of the average person. If you have three meals a day, then that means that for each person, there would be 1,095 meals on the ark. Now imagine all of the food that would be required to feed 50 elephants, 50 bears, 50 rhinos, and 50 hippos for an entire year. It's a huge amount of weight, and it would take up an unthinkable amount of room on the ark. There is absolutely no way that Noah could have fit all of the animals and their food for a year on the ark.

We've been given the size of the ark, and we've been told what animals Noah brought along with him, and they just don't coincide. It is yet another fatal flaw of the bible, pointed out by simple analysis.
 
Phydeaux said:
Because we know that it will not last forever and through that we can use logic, and find out that if it can not last forever it could not be here forever.
I can not prove it, but logicly we can see that.
Umm rays go forever in one way and stop at one point, so you can't use that. Also where the evidence that matter and energy won't last forever? I haven't seen any?

Lastly why must it be created can the universe not "just be"?
 
Faith and Its Problems
Somehow, the Christians have managed to brainwash themselves into thinking that faith somehow justifies their belief in a deity. Faith is central to the Christian religion, and all "true" Christians are required to have a significant amount of it. After asking a person what their reason for believing in an invisible sky pixie is, the answer is often "faith". I'm not entirely sure how faith became the most common answer to such questions, but one thing is for certain: the Christians who think in this manner have no idea what faith really is, and more importantly, what it implies when one must resort to it.

Faith is defined as belief without evidence that supports the belief. Having faith in the existence of God quite simply means that there is no evidence supporting his existence. That is, after all, exactly what faith is. I find it amusing when a Christian claims that he or she has found irrefutable proof of God, for such a thing would make faith of this sort impossible. Belief isn't faith if the belief has been proven. Seeing as faith is so important to Christianity, proof of the existence of God would actually be rather detrimental to their principles.

Consider the statement "I believe because I have faith." I personally have encountered this statement many times when arguing with Christians. Let's examine this reasoning more closely. If faith is defined as belief without evidence, then the statement can be rewritten as, "I believe because I believe without evidence," which essentially means, "I believe because I believe." This is purely circular reasoning. The same kind of logic is used by five-year-olds when asked a "why" question. Ask a child of that age why he did a certain thing, and he may very well answer "Because," and nothing more. Ask him, "because why?", and he will again reply with, "Because." The same circular logic is used by Christians when answering why questions with faith. Faith, therefore, is not an answer of any kind to questions concerning the reasons for religious belief.

Suppose for a minute that faith did somehow justify a belief in God. If it can be used as reasoning for the belief in one god, then why not another? If having faith in the Christian god somehow makes the belief in him valid, then wouldn't it also validate a belief in Zeus, Odin, or Thor? If Christians are supported in their beliefs, then so are members of every other religion with a belief in a deity.

The only reason that faith is a major part of Christianity is that there simply is no evidence for the existence of God. Christians must resort to faith because there is, and never will be, proof of God. If there were, then they would be using it in their arguments, not just depending on blind, baseless, and irrational dogmatic beliefs.

The Pointlessness of Prayer
It is common practice among Christians to pray for people who are sick or are in need. Suppose that a few Christians know a boy who has cancer. The disease is inoperable and untreatable in this case, so our Christian friends pray for the boy. A few weeks later, the boy dies. This is a familiar scenario which is often encountered in the creationist world. One can't help but wonder why the praying didn't work. Was the boy a sinner, and therefore deserved to die? Did his friends simply not pray hard enough? Probably not. The explanation that most Christians use is that it was not God's will for the boy to live. In other words, written in God's big book of how things are going to happen, Timmy is supposed to reach the end of the line at such and such date. At first glance, this seems to make sense. For whatever mysterious reason, it was the boy's time to go, and because of that, no amount of prayers could change it. Most Christians agree to this reasoning.

But let's back up a bit here. We said that no amount of prayers could change the outcome of the boy with cancer situation because it is God's will that the boy die. This actually says a lot more than you might think. This means that we can't change something that is in God's plan. If God wants the boy to die, then he is going to die. Doesn't this make praying pointless? Doesn't this mean that you can't change what God is going to do, so it doesn't matter if you pray or not? At this point of the argument, most Christians tell me that prayer convinces God to change his mind about his divine plan. Here, I would like to take a small detour to prove that God cannot change his mind, due to the fact that he is perfect. The reason is simply this: there is always a best choice in any situation. For someone to change their mind, they have to deem their new choice better than their old one. Suppose, for example, that God thought that one plus one equals three. God then changes his mind to thinking that one plus one equals two. This situation is impossible because for God to change his mind to the best choice (one plus one equals two), he must have previously had a worse choice. This math situation cannot happen because God must be wrong in the first place. For him to change to thinking that one plus one equals two, he must first think that one plus one equals something else, which is wrong. God is never wrong, remember? He always knows the best choice, because he is omniscient. God always selects the best choice from the start. As a result, God can never change his mind. Granted, sometimes the best choice is only slightly better than the other choice, but it doesn't matter. All questions have a best answer. It is impossible to calculate the best answer to a question for us because we must look at every single tiny effect on everything else, but for an omniscient god, this is no difficult task at all. God always makes the best choice, because he is never wrong. Every choice he makes is perfect -- there is no better choice. Now, let's get back to the original argument.

I made that point to show that God cannot change his mind. The relevance to the argument is that God cannot be convinced to make a different choice. So let's get this straight: if God's plan is set in place, and God's mind is set in place, then how can prayer change anything? There exist two kinds of situations: (1) someone prays for something that is not according to God's plan, and (2) someone prays for something that is according to God's plan. As we've just discussed, praying for something that is not according to his plan is pointless, because we can't change his mind about anything, and what God wants to do is already set in place. The second situation, where someone prays for something that is according to God's plan, is equally pointless. If something is according to God's plan prior to the prayer, then it is going to happen regardless of whether you pray for it or not. If God wants some kid with cancer to live, then praying for him is pointless because before you even kneel down in front of your bed or in your church, God has already decided that the boy will live. What's the point of praying for something that is going to happen anyway? It's like praying for the law of gravity. It's going to happen anyway, so why pray for it? In both of the situations, prayer is pointless.

Either your prayer is against God's will and therefore won't happen because you can't change his mind, or your prayer is according to God's will but doesn't make a difference because God's will would have been carried out anyway. Prayer is pointless. It's a waste of time.

The bible is considered to be the source of the Christians' morals and doctrines. Christians hold themselves to be very moral and well-to-do people. If that's true, then we should expect the bible to be just that. Unfortunately, that's not what we see. Have a look at these verses illustrating "God's Love".
God kills 2 men who offers God incense that he hasn't authorized (Lev. 10:1-2)

God endorses the murder of any unmarried girl found not to be a virgin (Deut. 22:13-21)

God commands slaying disrespectful children (Lev.20:9; Deut.21:18-21)

God acknowledges He created Evil (Isaiah 45:7)

God kills an innocent baby for its father's wrong-doing, ignoring the father's pleas (2 Sam. 12:15-20)

God's spirit inhabits Samson and murders 1,030 people - (Judges 14:19 & 15:14-15)

God endorses the killing of any who dare worship any other god or merely have a different religion (Ex. 22:20; Lev. 24:10-16; Deut.13:1-15; Jos. 23:7)

God slays a man who refuses to impregnate his brother's widow (Gen. 38:7-10) (This could also be a contradiction, as it appears that god is actually upset that a man will NOT have sex outside of marriage, NOR commit adultery)

God condemns those who dare work on the sabbath; even if only to gather sticks or to kindle a fire (Ex.31:14-15; 35:2-3; Num.15:32-36)

Special thanks to Ciberpuppi for these verses.
you people have to face the facts
 
Tips On How To Debate Creationists

Don't attack their character. They will use it to get off of the subject by saying that you've run out of arguments so you had to resort to name calling and the like, when in actuality, it's usually them who have run out of ideas and must draw attention to your character assasinations to dodge any awkward situations.

Don't ever let them wander off subject. Before you can destroy one argument, they'll already have started a new one, and it makes the average person think that they've beaten you. If they show the slightest sign of getting off track, bring it to their attention.

Don't let them dodge questions. Never settle for a vague or irrelevant answer.

Always stick to what you know. Never make any unjustified assumptions, because one of their favorite things is to say that evolutionists make too many assumptions.

Be as specific as you can in your arguments. This usually means arguing about scientific and not philisophical matters. It's much easier to prove that the earth wasn't made 6,000 years ago than to prove that God is a jerk.

Almost all mystical arguments in favor of God's existence can be destroyed by pointing out that most other religions claim the same miraculous and divine occurances as evidence for their religion. Miracles, faith healing, appearance of a holy character in nature, etc., are all claimed by many other religions. If the creationist wants to use those things as evidence, he/she will have to explain why those same arguments don't work for other religions.

If you're having a formal debate, and there is an audiance present, try not to use the word Christian. Use words like fundamentalist, creationist, etc., otherwise you'll wind up offending some of the audience members. No one will care how good of an argument you made if they think you're an ass.

Creationists love to talk about how Charles Darwin believed in some things that were false. He lived during a time when Lamarckism was still a common belief. A good theory is still a good theory regardless of what stupid things the founders of it may have said. What Darwin said has no influence whatsoever on our beliefs. If the beliefs of the founders of something determine its quality, then perhaps we should discuss how early church leaders believed that the earth was flat and that it was at the center of the universe. Never let a creationist get away with criticizing Darwin.

Biblical Contradictions
Here are some of the better biblical contradictions. All of the verses have been checked out, and the OT ones have been located in the original Torah. Enjoy.

"...and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (II Kings 2:11) VS Jesus states that NO man has ever ascended to heaven (John 3:13)

"the Earth abideth forever" (Ecc 1:4) VS "...the Earth also...shall be burned up" (2Peter 3:10)

"And the flood was forty days upon the earth" (Gen 7:17) VS "And the waters prevailed upoon the earth 150 days" (Gen 7:24) VS The flood starting while Noah was 599, 2 mos and 17days (Gen 7:11) and ending when Noah was 600, I month and 1 day old (Gen 8:13) - This would put the flood's duration at being 319 days.

God cannot lie (Num 23:19, Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18) VS God lies, sends "lying spirits" and delusions (I Kings 22:20-30, II Chron 18:19-22, II Thes 2:11-12)

"The Lord is a man of war" (Ex 15:3) VS "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace" (I Cor 14:33)

"with God all things are possible (Matt 19:26) VS God's inability to drive out inhabitants (Judges 1:19)

God forbids the making of any thing that is in heaven (Ex 20:4) VS God commands the making of 2 cherubims of gold (Ex 25:18)

God denounces incest (Deut 27:22) VS God blesses the union of Abraham with his sister, Sara (Gen 17:15-16)

Jacob was buried in Canaan (Gen 50:13) VS Jacob was buried in Sychem (Acts 7:15-16)

Keturah was Abraham's wife (Gen 25:1) VS Keturah was Abraham's concubine (I Chron 1:32)

The bible claims the Earth had only ONE language before the Tower Of Babel (Gen 11:1) VS the bible states that other nations had other languages BEFORE the Tower Of Babel (Gen 10:5)

God creates animals BEFORE Man (Gen 1:25-26) VS God creates animals AFTER Man (Gen 2:18-19)

God claims that once you go to the grave, you "come up no more" (Job 7:9) VS God's promise of universal resurrection of the dead (John 5:28-29)

God encourages revenge, ala "tooth for a tooth" (Ex 21:23-25) VS "turning the other cheek" (Matt 5:39)

"The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree" (Ps 92:12) VS "The righteous perisheth and no man layeth it to heart" (Isa 57:1)

"Remember the Sabath day, to keep it holy" (Ex 20:8) VS God allowing people to treat each day as they want (Rom 14:5)

God goes into minute detail reagarding sacrifices and burnt offerings (Lev 1-7) VS God denies ever saying anything to them about sacrifices or burnt offerings (Jer 7:22)

"I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (Gen 32:30) VS "No man hath seen God at any time..." (John 1:18)

It is forbidden to sell a daughter (Lev 19:29) VS Conditions are set up for selling one's daughter (Ex 21:7)

Children shall pay for the sins of their fathers (Ex 20:5, Deut 5:9, Rom 5:12,14,19,6:23) VS Children shall NOT pay for the sins of their fathers (Deut 24:16, II Chron 25:4, Ezek 18:19-20)

God encourages wisdom (Prov 4:7) VS God discourages attaining wisdom (Ecc 1:18) & (Cor 1:19)

Special thanks to Ciberpuppi for these verses.

Biblical Absurdities
Here is a list of some verses that are completely outrageous. It makes the bible sound like a children's book. Enjoy.

Lev. 11:13 - 11:23 - Reference to Bats as "birds"

Rev. 12:3, 3, 7, 9, 13, 16, 17, 13:1, 2, 4, 11, 16:13, 20:2, Deut. 8:15 - Reference to Dragons

Gen. 1:1 & 1:2 - The Earth is created before its sun

GE 4:17 - Cain builds and populates a whole city in only two generations.

GE 1:12, 16 - Plants began to grow before there was sunlight.

GE 32:24-30 - God takes part in a wrestling match. He wins by injuring Jacob's hip. (This is one of my favorites)

Luke 4:5 - Jesus sees "all the kingdoms of the worlds" from atop a mountain--something that could only be done, if the Earth was FLAT! It is impossible to see all the kingdoms of the world if it is a sphere.

Rev. 7:1 - Reference to "the four corners of the earth". This also suggests that the earth is flat. A sphere has no corners.

JB 9:6 (KJV) - God shakes the earth out of its place and makes its pillars tremble. Yet another verse implying that the earth was flat.

JS 10:12-14 God obliges Joshua by making the sun and moon stand still (so that he can finish his battle by daylight). Note that this verse implies that the sun revolves around the earth, which was "common knowledge" at that time.

Lev. 11:6 - Reference to hares "chewing their cud"

Lev. 11:21-23 - Insects (locusts, grasshoppers and beetles) called "four-legged"

Gen. 1:16 - The Moon is created as a "lesser light"

Isa. 13:21 and 34:14 - Reference to Satyrs

Gen. 1:16 - All other stars are created after the earth, its sun and moon, with no mention of any other planets in this solar system

Num. 22:28-30 - Reference to talking asses (note that this could also be a reference to the Christians themselves)

Num. 23:22 & 24:8 and Ps. 92:10 - Reference to Unicorns

Special thanks to Ciberpuppi for some of these verses.
The bibal is supposed to be God's Word, andGod doesnt make mistakes :rolleyes:
 
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