DancesWithGoats
Chieftain
That sounds plausible. But diseases like the flue/plague/aids/pox have killed dozens of millions of people. If God really cares for us, why did he create them? (or allow them to be evolved)
Prove that God doesn't exist
- Thread starter Mark Young
- Start date
That sounds plausible. But diseases like the flue/plague/aids/pox have killed dozens of millions of people. If God really cares for us, why did he create them? (or allow them to be evolved)
napoleon526
Emperor
Don't we have enough of these stupid threads? You all need to get out more.
jack merchant
Internationalist
Are you crazy ? It's waaaay too hot outside ! Come to think of it, God should do something about it - it might prove His existence
Mojotronica
Expect Irony.
What?!? We can NEVER have too many religious threads...
Mark Young
Formerly Sir Eric
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- Messages
- 1,799
Originally posted by jack merchant
Are you crazy ? It's waaaay too hot outside ! Come to think of it, God should do something about it - it might prove His existence
It's about 10 degress celsius where I am. Want to swap?
Mark Young
Formerly Sir Eric
- Joined
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- Messages
- 1,799
Originally posted by Cimbri
Second
We should have something new and exciting to disagree about
What have you got in mind?
So long as it doesn't have shock and awe in the title
jack merchant
Internationalist
Hmmmm, judging by this view we're like labrats really, set loose endowed with free will and God only knows what may happen. Oh wait......
So maybe eventually us guinea pigs will live in a happy world where we will always worship God, the one who created us because he was kinda lonely and wanted something/someone to play with....
I find this idea rather disturbing really.
Oh, dont worry; I have nothing new for us all to argue about.Originally posted by Sir Eric
What have you got in mind?
So long as it doesn't have shock and awe in the title
I was just kidding.Shock and Awe is Curts territory, I dare not go there
Mojotronica
Expect Irony.
Really horrible things happen in this world. If God exists then there is at least a balance to the horror in a cosmic sense. Unrepentant concentration camp operators and child molesters will be shown the error of their ways -- their victims may have suffered in life, but the paradise of the afterlife will make all suffering in life irrelevant.
So although we suffer in life, if God exists the promise is that we will have perfect justice in the afterlife. If we strive to be good people, we will be rewarded. If we don't make enough effort to be good, we will pay for our lack of trying.
If God does not exist, all the suffering in this world is all the more terrible.
jack merchant
Internationalist
Respectfully, I disagree (and not just because this thread might spwan another one relating to proof of the afterlife ).Both the Old and the New Testament have plenty of tales of divine intervention and miracles being performed. I see no reason why those should no longer be possible if there is a God still.
And if there is though, I'm very angry with Him.
).Both the Old and the New Testament have plenty of tales of divine intervention and miracles being performed. I see no reason why those should no longer be possible if there is a God still.And if there is though, I'm very angry with Him.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
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- Messages
- 3,352
To disprove somethings existance you have to first make some claim as to what that thing is.
I can make an infinite number of claims about what things may exist, as long as I don't make any specific testable predictions about the nature of these things I am on solid ground.
Not very interesting ground, but I can't be disproved.
As soon as I make a specific testable prediction about the nature of the thing, then the debate can begin.
For example, you may say something like "God created the universe", well that is specific but not testable and not a prediction.
This is the agnostic argument in a nutshell: the existence of anything beyond and behind material phenomena is unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable, and especially that a First Cause and an unseen world are subjects of which we know nothing.
I can make an infinite number of claims about what things may exist, as long as I don't make any specific testable predictions about the nature of these things I am on solid ground.
Not very interesting ground, but I can't be disproved.
As soon as I make a specific testable prediction about the nature of the thing, then the debate can begin.
For example, you may say something like "God created the universe", well that is specific but not testable and not a prediction.
This is the agnostic argument in a nutshell: the existence of anything beyond and behind material phenomena is unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable, and especially that a First Cause and an unseen world are subjects of which we know nothing.
Mojotronica
Expect Irony.
Originally posted by jack merchant
Respectfully, I disagree (and not just because this thread might spwan another one relating to proof of the afterlife
And if there is though, I'm very angry with Him.
I don't buy into direct intervention f/ God detailed in the stories of the Bible. However I think the stories are still useful and relevant (and "100% true") as parables.
God Him/Herself is the mechanism of Universal Justice in Judaism/Xtianity/Islam. Hinduism and Buddhism have reincarnation instead of God acting as the mechanism of justice. But the core of all of these belief systems is a faith in some kind of truly just universal order. THAT to me is what is important.
I like Christianity, and Christians, and I think that whatever definition of God works for them is fine. I don't agree with the Fundamentalists on the homosexuality being a sin thing, or some of the other conventions of the sect. But the basic principle of having faith that life is essentially fair -- that seems very healthy to me.
And if one could accept that, one would find their anger would diminish...
G-Man
A One Man's War
Originally posted by phoenix_night
When a country goes to war against another country, claiming that the country is armed with nuclear weapons which can strike within 45 minuteslol: ), I expect some proof. How else is it just? They had nuclear weapons before, we had inspectors before, we have inspectors again, but the threat is no greater, indeed it would appear there was none.
What you may want is a different issue. But the fact is that your way isn't the way of the western legal system, which I think there's a general consensus around here is very capable of determining guilt and therefore I think we should work according to.
jack merchant
Internationalist
The problem with an afterlife is that there doesn't seem to be much point to having a separate 'just' life to compensate for our earthly vale of tears....
But really, I have no objection to your version of Christianity - I don't buy it, but I can see how sane and reasonable people would hold those beliefs and I respect them for it.
phoenix_night
Deity
- Joined
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- 3,853
You aren't referring to any legal system. And what guilt do you talk of?
If you want to talk about legal systems, look at both the UN and the idea of 'innocent until proven guilty'.
"But the fact is that your way isn't the way of the western legal system"
Sorry, I didn't realise evidence was not a standard requirement for prosecution in the "western legal system"...
Mojotronica
Expect Irony.
Originally posted by jack merchant
The problem with an afterlife is that there doesn't seem to be much point to having a separate 'just' life to compensate for our earthly vale of tears....
But really, I have no objection to your version of Christianity - I don't buy it, but I can see how sane and reasonable people would hold those beliefs and I respect them for it.
Thanks man, I appreciate it.
Religion makes less sense to people when times are reasonably good and when their lives have not been touched with seemingly random calamity. I've personality been blessed enough to never have to deal with one of those gut-wrenching curveballs life can throw at you. I can honestly say that life has been very fair -- generous even -- to me.
But I recognize that it may not always be so, and I've met people who have been touched by seemingly unfair negativity, and when I read stories about the concentration camps or whatever I find myself hoping very much that there is some kind of cosmic justice, for all our sakes.
Cecasander
King
For a few hours, yes please. I have been in some kind of heatwave for nearly a month (which is extraordinary for Europe, but I moved meanwhile
), so I can use the refreshment. Do you got rain and/or wind too?
G-Man
A One Man's War
Originally posted by phoenix_night
You aren't referring to any legal system. And what guilt do you talk of?
I'm talking about the western legal system. Since we're not discussing a crime I'm taking the part of up to the proof and not of the guilt.
If you want to talk about legal systems, look at both the UN and the idea of 'innocent until proven guilty'.
The UN has nothing to do with a legal or justice system. And the rule of innocent until proven guilty only applies until the accused is prooven guilty, as you might expect, and not after that.
Sorry, I didn't realise evidence was not a standard requirement for prosecution in the "western legal system"...
Evidence are, but so are counter evidence. Once something is prooven it is considered as such untill proven otherwise.
You aren't referring to any legal system. And what guilt do you talk of?
I'm talking about the western legal system. Since we're not discussing a crime I'm taking the part of up to the proof and not of the guilt.
If you want to talk about legal systems, look at both the UN and the idea of 'innocent until proven guilty'.
The UN has nothing to do with a legal or justice system. And the rule of innocent until proven guilty only applies until the accused is prooven guilty, as you might expect, and not after that.
Sorry, I didn't realise evidence was not a standard requirement for prosecution in the "western legal system"...
Evidence are, but so are counter evidence. Once something is prooven it is considered as such untill proven otherwise.
Can't you comprehend? Just because you refute the fabricated story, doesn't mean you've disproved that a god may exist. Yes, the idea of god is the crux of the fabricated stories; however, the fabricated stories are not the crux of the idea of god. He would be quite capable of existing without people making up things about him. So, if you're going to disprove God, you're going to have to venture into other areas of thought.
It's trolls such as yourself that make me (somewhat) ashamed to call myself an atheist. Did you know that nearly every time I get in a debate such as this, I invariably end up arguing on the side of those with faith? Overstating your case and abandoning your intellectual integrity isn't going to convince anyone of anything.
