Puppets and Summoner Trait

[nealhunt]

It seems to be coming up over and over in the various Amurite threads that the Amurite mages aren't very good compared to the other uber-mages in the game, and Keelyn's are the most commonly cited example of why.

It seems to me the Summoner/Puppet combo is the real problem. It's basically a 3x multiplier for all spells with a potential 9x buildup of summoned units. The "Keelyn v Erebus All Stars" (can't recall the exact name, so that's probably off) thread where someone worldbuildered the Channeling III Balseraphs against all the Avatars in the game and killed several just by the puppet/wraith summoning chain should be a pretty good sign that something is wrong. 8 or 9 units, even tier 4, should not be able to single-handedly stand up to the toughest units in the game massed together, let alone actually win.

Am I the only one thinking that one of the major problems here is that puppets + summoner is just way out of balance?

 

[Kenjister]

Nah, you're not the only one... though I've never played with that strat, I think the problem lies in the fact that massed t4 summons, even if 20% weaker are still extremely strong. since it is part of the fun to have hordes of puppets terrorizing enemy lands, maybe the puppet promotion should give -50% strength to summons or something to compensate.
that way they might not be able to wear down such powerful troops as easily, and puts some risk into it, as if they survive they'll probably promote to pretty high levels making them near invulnerable further puppet attacks

 

[Grey Fox]

How about Puppets only able to summon "puppet versions" of their summons? Half strength, can only do 50% damage or something like that? Or too weak?

The puppet versions would probably be best done with 50% scale on the original unit graphics or something.

 

[Fafnir13]

Or we just don't allow puppets to have a duration. Puppets are amusing little things good for keeping your mages out of trouble. They shouldn't be a multiplier when you have the summoning trait.
I only had to play halfway through one game using a stack of wraith summoners to figure out how unnecessarily evil this particular combo is.

 

[Hawkwood]

What about only allowing one puppet for each caster? Keelyn would still have puppets that last multiple turns, but they would function as a better defence mechanism (her casters can stay further away than Perpentachs) instead of a multiplier of the casters summoning potential.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Puppets definitely need a limit, 9 summons per caster is just too much. And then theirs the fact that puppets remove all risk from domination and that they can effectively remove Gibbon's illusionist promotion. Any one of the above would be fine for a civ to posses, but not all of the above...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm thinking it might be best to just make puppets be permanent summons, like Skeletons or Treants.

 

[cyther]

Maybe the puppets could have a small cost such as 1 Gold. This would have relatively no effect unless Keelyn tries to create an army every turn.

 

[zup]

When you hit archmagi, you'll probably want to be done with the game pretty quickly. By that point the game should be pretty much decided already. Endgame steamrolling mechanisms are good.

Of course the contest of wielding more champions (FFH equivalent of modern armor) than your enemy is good too </sarcasm>.

 

[nealhunt]

When you hit archmagi, you'll probably want to be done with the game pretty quickly. By that point the game should be pretty much decided already. Endgame steamrolling mechanisms are good.

It's not Archmages that are the problem. It's Mages with level II summons like Spectres and Hosts that can come much earlier (quite early if you prioritize it and lightbulb with a Great Sage). Each one can build up 12 summoned units and generate 4 new attackers (3 new summons and the soon-to-expire puppet) every turn.

That will completely crush anything in the same ballpark with respect to beakers/hammers/upkeep required.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=296162

Is the thread mentioned in the first post.

He had 9 archmages, not 4. And he got to summon everything before the fighting started, a luxury that balseraph players don't tend to get in real games. And team auric had its hands tied behind its back, because the strongest aspect of that team, snowfall, which would have wasted a shitload of the wraiths, puppets, and normal archmages in one shot and left most of the surviving wraiths too weak to do much damage, never got a chance to come into play.

That was a cool "clash of the titans" type scenario but it's not to be taken seriously when seriously discussing balance, mainly because a situation where a big army comes at AA and avoids getting splattered by his uber spell isn't really realistic, but due to some other reasons as well.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

I'm thinking it might be best to just make puppets be permanent summons, like Skeletons or Treants.

I like this. It also makes Perp's Puppets a bit better.

I don't like the idea behind Keelyn's super-summoning-hell strat purely on the severe levels of micromanagement involved ><

 

[nealhunt]

He had 9 archmages, not 4.

Actually, I said 8 or 9. I couldn't recall if he added a hero to the archmages and liches.

And he got to summon everything before the fighting started, a luxury that balseraph players don't tend to get in real games.

If a Balseraph player is marching to war or has the slightest inclination that someone is going to declare war on them and doesn't have the stack-o-summons ready to go that's just ridiculously poor play.

That was a cool "clash of the titans" type scenario but it's not to be taken seriously when seriously discussing balance...

Sometimes it doesn't matter how artificial the contrived scenario is. Lack of being a "real" in-game situation doesn't change its effectiveness as a demonstration of the raw combat ability of a puppet-summons stack.

 

[slowcar]

puppets as permanent summons seems about all right. you can always disband some if you want a new one.

 

[odalrick]

The only problem is that your single Archmage, say Hemah or Gibbon, could summon one puppet for each arcane unit in the Balseraph army.

Would work in Fall Further though.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

The only problem is that your single Archmage, say Hemah or Gibbon, could summon one puppet for each arcane unit in the Balseraph army.

Would work in Fall Further though.

Maybe limit Puppets to Tier II spells, so it's not a double-up on Archmages, rather a double-up on Mages?

 

[cabbagemeister]

Puppets as permanent summons wouldn't work, as you could always just build more adepts. I also don't like limiting puppets to T2 spells, as it would mean you're not really playing a Balseraph game anymore when you get to archmages.

What if puppets instead had a National limit of 12 or so? 4 of your mages would still be really powerful, but you couldn't pump out an unstoppable army of 10 mages with 30 puppets and 90 Einerjhars. And your archmages would still be just as effective as before, but your mages would be relegated to support roles because the archmages would be hogging all the puppets. Liches would not be worth pursuing, making it more attractive to shoot for Mind 3 instead (which fits well with Balseraph lore).

Essentially this would maintain the awesomeness of a puppet attack, but concentrate the power in fewer units.

 

[wig]

How about giving puppets a spell failure chance, say 30-50%? Puppets are imperfect copies, and spell failure would play into the chaotic nature of the Balseraph civ.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

Well I must admit I use puppets as assassin fodder and wall smashing cannon fodder. My suggestion, if nerfing is in order, is to make it take more than one turn to cast them (maybe two turns). Doing this would slow the mage and war progress.