The balancing of puppets

[Domingo]

I like the idea of puppet summons starting with a weakened promotion of some sort. It would lower their effectiveness without requiring any major overhaul in mechanics. Many of the ideas in this thread are good, but would never work because (1) they are clunky and complicated and (2) the AI would never figure them out.

 

[cabbagemeister]

I like the idea of puppet summons starting with a weakened promotion of some sort. It would lower their effectiveness without requiring any major overhaul in mechanics. Many of the ideas in this thread are good, but would never work because (1) they are clunky and complicated and (2) the AI would never figure them out.

Puppets are already weakened.

From Xienwolf's manual:
Puppet Promotion
•-20%
•Spells are 20% more likely to be
resisted
•Spells inflict 10% less damage
•Grants Puppet to all Summoned
Units [so that the summons are weaker too]

This weakening hasn't done anything to keep puppets from being utterly ridiculous. I bet a lot of people don't even realize puppets and their summons and their spells are weak and more resisted, because it doesn't matter how weak a summon is when there's three times as many of them. Drop the summons to 50% strength and they'll still be very strong. Some change beyond weakening must be made.

 

[bonedog]

Actually, I prefer Dominating with puppets instead. Playing as Keelyn, a single archmage can steal you up to 3 enemy units per turn via puppets, with no risk of promotion loss to the archmage himself. And you can even gain enemy hero units that way. That's always fun.

 

[Verdian]

Taken from the latest patch notes:

13. Extra duration from the Summoner trait decreased from +2 turns to +1 turn.
14. The Summoner trait now allows all summons to start with Combat 1.

Is this the intended fix for puppets now? And if so, I am wondering if the Team felt that Summoner was too strong in general (ignoring puppets), as this affects quite a bit.

edit: Similar to Grey Fox below, I've found that Summoner was very strong. I am not sure if it was too strong, just a different type of power from a trait. I asked the above to know if this thread was effectively dead now.

 

[Grey Fox]

In my opinion Summoner was too strong before. But this isn't a 100% nerf. Giving summons Combat I is like having aggressive trait for summons. (They can take Shock after a victory for example, and will help Sheaim skeletons a bit).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

In my opinion Summoner was too strong before. But this isn't a 100% nerf. Giving summons Combat I is like having aggressive trait for summons. (They can take Shock after a victory for example, and will help Sheaim skeletons a bit).

That really isn't the case for most summons, as they lack unitcombats.

This change also seems to weaken Aggressive/Summoner leaders. (Ok, so there aren't any of those, but there could be. It seems quite appropriate for a Sheaim minor leader.)

 

[Damocles12]

I think puppets should simply be unaffected by the summoner trait
-they are fine (balanced) as is in the hands of perpentach and achieve the desired superiority in domination
-summoner would remain a useful trait for keelyn as before
-importantly this change will have no effect on the sheaim

I really dislike the coming change with patch t

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I disagree with the change, but I do not think that will change Kael's mind, anyway... I think his mind was fixed towards nerfing summoner, because there are much easier and better solutions to the puppet issue.

 

[mahazel]

I still think that summoner trait should give some bonus vs summons for units in cities.

 

[Kael]

That really isn't the case for most summons, as they lack unitcombats.

This change also seems to weaken Aggressive/Summoner leaders. (Ok, so there aren't any of those, but there could be. It seems quite appropriate for a Sheaim minor leader.)

It doesnt weaken Aggressive/Summoner because trait free promotions aren't granted to summons. An aggressive/summoner leader would have the caster start with combat 1, which allows the summon to start with Empower 1, and the summoner side would have the summon start with combat 1. So effectily the summon would start with combat 1 and empower 1, a total of +30% combat strength.

I disagree with the change, but I do not think that will change Kael's mind, anyway... I think his mind was fixed towards nerfing summoner, because there are much easier and better solutions to the puppet issue.

I wouldnt consider making all their summons 20% stronger in exchange for 1 turn of duration is a nerf. How often do sheaim summons last through their 1st turn? If they die the first turn anyway then this change is definitely better for them. If they survive to a second turn because they are now stronger its better for them. The only case where its worse is when they would live through 2 combats on thier own without the boost. In which case Im not to worried about it because, in that situation, they are already wiping the board and it wont make much difference either way.

The only real loss is the inability to do the 3 turn jump. A summoner can currently summon 3 creatures, save them all and have them all attack in the same turn. If you are doing this you are usually using them as shock troops to warm up a city stack before you send real units in. Now they will only be able to build 2, but they will be stronger. That may be a fair exchange in and of itself. At the very least you may need to bring another summoner along, which is probably a good thing.

Lets admit it, 4 eater of dreams + 4 liches in the sheaim hands means 24 wraiths able to attack in one turn (without using the eaters special ability). That may be a bit to much.

Tis change makes them stronger at the beginning of that curve (when you actually care about your summon winning battles) and weaker at the end. But they are already so strong at the end that weakening them there is not doing much. I think its a good trade for the Sheaim.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I wouldnt consider making all their summons 20% stronger in exchange for 1 turn of duration is a nerf.

I think you may be in the minority there. 20% strength is nothing compared to not being able to attack again. The whole play style behind a Sheaim summoning strat involves getting very strong summons that win a lot of combats, it's kinda the whole point. If they were already going to win the combat, or had very good odds to do so, this approaches a straight up 33% weakening to the trait.

 

[Jules.lt]

I like the change.
More complex mechanics might have been more entertaining, but I appreciate Kael's effort to make this game eventually reach a "finished" status.

Thanks, Kael!

(as he said, it is a nerf at the high end when you're already winning the game, and an enhancement when you're not; this is good)

 

[Earthling]

Well I know I'm kind of repeating myself but I approve of this change; I felt summoner was too strong in the first place. The only civ people seem to be caring about is the Sheiam and I felt they were strong enough as is with their UUs and the planar gates which can get pretty ridiculous too in just giving free units. I don't know how this may affect MP but it seems that slightly nerfing an overpowered, human-centered mechanic isn't so bad.

 

[Imuratep]

I like it too. Sheaims early game is heavily boosted by this as skeletons are their major weapon. If you are waiting till mages you could as well have won it with skeletons if you do it right. And now there will probably be some skeleton buddies I might want to keep.
And with Eater of Dreams the Sheaim still are a lategame powerhouse, since once you have conquered a major opponent city you essentially won the game with 2 or 3 duration.

 

[Grey Fox]

And Spectres are also Melee. Use an Enchant Blade spellcaster to give them an additional +20% and your spectres now have a +40% boost! (then use a metamagic node to revert the enchantment and meta magic to death if you want).

 

[Elm]

It may still be a good idea to have puppets die after casting. As for a reason, you could say the energy used to animate the puppet is transferred to the spell they caste. Otherwise, the Summoner+Puppet combination is still allowing a lot of summons.

 

[Jules.lt]

true.
And if you're Perp, puppets that have already cast are pretty worthless anyway, so you save the player the micromanagement of deleting them to save money.
As well as preventing abuse by Keelyn.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It doesnt weaken Aggressive/Summoner because trait free promotions aren't granted to summons. An aggressive/summoner leader would have the caster start with combat 1, which allows the summon to start with Empower 1, and the summoner side would have the summon start with combat 1. So effectily the summon would start with combat 1 and empower 1, a total of +30% combat strength.

Is this another change in the new version? Because it isn't true in the version I have. True, Aggressive wouldn't give Combat I to most summons because they lack a unitcombat, but any UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT, UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER, UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE, UNITCOMBAT_MELEE, UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED, or UNITCOMBAT_RECON summon would get the Empower promotions from the summoner and Combat I promotions from having the right unitcombat. Hosts of the Einherjar, Skeletons, Spectres, and Wraiths do benefit from the Aggressive trait.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Is this another change in the new version? Because it isn't true in the version I have. True, Aggressive wouldn't give Combat I to most summons because they lack a unitcombat, but any UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT, UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER, UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE, UNITCOMBAT_MELEE, UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED, or UNITCOMBAT_RECON summon would get the Empower promotions from the summoner and Combat I promotions from having the right unitcombat. Hosts of the Einherjar, Skeletons, Spectres, and Wraiths do benefit from the Aggressive trait.

This is correct. I have seen skeletons getting the Combat I promotion from the leader's Aggressive trait.

As for my expressed opinion about the change, really, the summons need no more than Empower V. The ability to live for one more turn is handy in many situations, both defending cities and attacking distand enemies without risking your, limited, troops, as well as creating a big assault force to take a city. Of course, everybody is going to live with the change. More critical changes have been done in the past, and everyone lived with it .

 

[Imuratep]

ok if this is true there should be in fact some further promotion as these units are among the best.