quechua rush

[bryanwallace]

ive read a lot on here about the greatness of hcs quechua rush

but i cant seem to get it to work for me so well..

any idea whats going wrong.?
i presume build is just quechua,quechua,quechua repeat.
how many cities should you have?

 

[Junuxx]

Just one city, as you start quechaing straight away

Which difficulty? It works fine for me, at least on small maps up to prince.

 

[PieceOfMind]

The quechua rush some say is more effective at levels of Monarch and above because the AI starts with an archer instead of a warrior. Since the quechua is better at attacking archers than it is attacking warriors, and the AIs feel that a single archer (or two maybe) is good enough defense, a modest number of quechuas can easily overrun an AI if done swiftly.

As far as gambits go, it's one of the simplest.

 

[covok48]

I've become much more of a rusher as of late and can tell you in all fairness the warrior rush ends when the first archer pops up. You might be able to get away with it once or twice on a lower difficulty but the archer will clean the clocks of all your warriors after that.

The Quencha extends this window quite a long time. You'll still be able to match up against warriors and will have a direct advantage over archers. You'll be able to knovck out some key players before you settle down and start building as a result.

 

[Fleme]

I'm not sure whether or not the AI starts with Archers on Prince and below since I've never played those difficulties but for me atleast the Quechua rush has worked from Monarch to Immortal and even on Deity you can get a strong footing with it in certain conditions.

Up to Emperor on maps such as Continents you can easily and reliably clean out your entire continent with just Quechuas. Build orders for me vary between Worker-Q-Q-Q-Q-ad nauseum and Q-Q-Q-till you can't Q no more!

With that said, I've ceased playing HC because it's like playing a difficulty (or sometimes 2) lower than you actually are.

 

[Junuxx]

It works fine for me, at least on small maps up to prince.

Ignore the Prince part, obviously it's been a while since I Quecha rushed, indeed as other posters have pointed out Archers are actually beneficial for this strategy.

My only Immortal win was on a Duel Great Plains map with the Incas

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The quechua rush some say is more effective at levels of Monarch and above because the AI starts with an archer instead of a warrior. Since the quechua is better at attacking archers than it is attacking warriors, and the AIs feel that a single archer (or two maybe) is good enough defense, a modest number of quechuas can easily overrun an AI if done swiftly.

As far as gambits go, it's one of the simplest.

That quecha rushes are more effective above prince is a position advocated in ignorance. They are easier to pull off at lower difficulties.

However, once you get above prince their strength RELATIVE to warrior rushes goes up tremendously, even though it's still slightly harder to quecha rush the AI since it will generally have access to more units for cheaper. Also, archers on good defensive terrain in cities will still out-perform warriors, especially the protective kind.

Once you go above monarch the cost of the AI archers and faster access to the ability to chop/whip them and/or hook up metal makes the quecha rush harder still. Eventually the AI can build archers cheaper than it can build warriors on prince AND whip them sooner.

The quecha rush still works (better on slow speeds), but it's not a gimme on the highest levels. Specifically, if you go quecha x 4-6 and hit an AI on immortal or especially deity and are playing normal or quick, the AI actually has a chance to hook up metal before you get there! If they get even one axe, your rush is scr00d and likely your game too.

They might not be the best pur rush UU except on slow speeds, as on a lot of speeds their rush value-over-base is only significant at 2 difficulties (monarch and emperor). However, that does not mean they are not a consistently useful UU! They are great anti-barb (excepting ghey bears), capture barb cities well, and are dynamic enough to use to choke hateful warmongers ASAP and avoid the typical easy AI archer killing the warrior. They are also dirt-cheap post-siege cleanup if you have enough stack cover otherwise and are effective in that role even against longbows. They can also be spammed for HR happiness even if you have metal. All around solid, but the Quecha X 5 rush is only special on 2 difficulties, and can turn into a bit of a crutch there (and even still won't work 100%).

 

[goodolarchie]

Quechua's are really amazing rushers, my personal choice (over dog warriors, axemen, praetorian, immortals, war chars etc). The problem is they are really only effective until axemen show up, and they don't fair as well against hill archers / garrison. They have a base strength of 4.4 against any archer unit (combat 1, 100% modifier).

You're still going to have a hell of a time against protective civs, figure it will take double the assault force to take a city. Some civs aren't worth rushing like sitting bull, hammurabi's bowman. Most civs won't get axeman for a long time, even if they have copper near the capital. This will vary based on the difficulty you play, but you're essentially trying to beat the AI to the 3rd/4th archer, culture reaching 40/60% in capital, and any garrison promotions from fending off barbs.

So how do you pull it off on emperor+? First of all, the slower the speed, the easier the rush since your Quechuas will outdate slower. On normal speed its still quite viable to take out 1 or two immediate neighbors, but cross more than 20 tiles and you're going to need a solid army of 10+ since most civs will have 3 cities up packed with archers. I generally play on epic speed and am able to take out the most immediately threatening (or rewarding in capture) neighbor with 6 Quechuas. Aside from a barracks, these 6 are always my first build from the capital. If I have a fair amount of food/animals or trees to chop, I may go for an immediate worker. But in trial and error I've found that its best to just steal an enemy capital and its workers ASAP by using your cap as a quechua factory.

A lot of times you can pick up a holy city, stonehenge, great wall this way. If you're real lucky you'll be able to take out a 2nd civ, piggybacking on the xp your surviving units got from the first. By now they'll have cover and city raider I/II and can really lay down punishment on non-hill cities. You'll have to raze some cities and the distance will hurt you in the short term, but HC is financial and you'll recover quickly. You'll have more healthy/happy resources early on, a lot of breathing room to settle between your cap and the newly captured cities. The best thing about quechua rush is that you'll know within about 5 minutes of making the game how its going to pan out for you. Plus its fun to remove Monty and Mansu from the planet before abraham spoke to god on the mountainside.

 

[PieceOfMind]

That quecha rushes are more effective above prince is a position advocated in ignorance. They are easier to pull off at lower difficulties.

However, once you get above prince their strength RELATIVE to warrior rushes goes up tremendously, even though it's still slightly harder to quecha rush the AI since it will generally have access to more units for cheaper.

I think you're arguing semantics and perhaps misunderstanding my meaning. I thought it would go without saying that if a strategy is described as being more effective at high levels it would be relative to alternate strategies - not instead saying that it gets easier in absolute terms relative to other difficulties. Obviously no matter what strategy you use the game is in general going to be overall easier the lower in difficulty you go. EDIT (In other words, of course they're going to be easier to pull off at lower difficulties. It wouldn't make much sense if the game got easier the higher in level you went would it?

Similarly there are strategies that work better at lower difficulties, like trying to found all religions in the one city. It's not a good strategy in any level but it's obvious that it is not going to work at higher difficulties (unless I am proven wrong by a Deity player! )and so relative to other strategies it is better at Settler.

 

[bryanwallace]

thanks for all the opinions

just to conclude
is it best just to build qqqs all the way or throw in a barracks o worker in there?

 

[PieceOfMind]

thanks for all the opinions

just to conclude
is it best just to build qqqs all the way or throw in a barracks o worker in there?

I'd say it depends on the number and proximity of your rivals. On a duel map with one opponent for instance, I'd suggest QQQ all the way .

On a larger map with more than 1 opponent, it might be wiser to go with a worker first. A barracks would be useful if you are going to need a large number of the quechuas and the speed of the rush is not critical.

Take my advice with a grain of salt though because I refuse to use this strat ever since I got one of my highest normalized scores on a duel map. It's been a while...

 

[Willem]

You'll still be able to match up against warriors and will have a direct advantage over archers.

No you don't. Quecha's have a base strength of 2 plus 100% against Archers for a total of 4. Archers start at 3 and get an innate city defence bonus of 50%, putting them at 4.5. Plus there's the fortification bonus and cultural defence. So the even the Quecha is attacking at a disadvantage, it's just not as much of one as the regular Warrior.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Doesn't the quechua start with Combat 1? That's not to be discounted as it allows faster access to cover, with only 2xp.

 

[oleg1]

Doesn't the quechua start with Combat 1? That's not to be discounted as it allows faster access to cover, with only 2xp.

Yes, I somtimes even think about building Shok Quechua and then upgrade to Axeman instead of building just combatI Axeman. If I have money of course.

 

[Willem]

Doesn't the quechua start with Combat 1? That's not to be discounted as it allows faster access to cover, with only 2xp.

True, I forgot about that. So that would bring the base for Quecha to 4.2. But usually a rush occurs with just level 1 units, not level 2. Even with Cover, a Quecha will be at a disadvantage to a Archer in most cases. While the Quecha's 4.7 beats the Archer's 4.5, there's also the fortification bonus and cultural defence factored in. Then of course the city might be on a Hill.

 

[Iranon]

Quechua rushes are very effective on Monarch and Emperor and can easily become a crutch. On Immortal and Deity, they require good judgement:

Sometimes you can rush one AI while choking anyone who could take advantage of the available space. Sometimes they are too costly. Sometimes the rush itself works but someone else is quicker than you to settle the available land, meaning you may have created a monster that will be hard to take down. Sometimes this happens but it was all according to plan, because you are confident you can make it YOUR monster through diplomacy.

Quechuas are great regardless of whether you rush with them. On high levels where this is iffy, archers are the only barbarians that matter (by the time more advanced ones could show up, there isn't much fog of war thanks to all the AI expansion/units) and they can be a considerable pain.
Free C1 and bonus against archers means it may be beneficial to take them along in a later rush/war: disposable siege replacements if a city is defended by archers alone, and if you upgrade them (possibly with conquest cash, saving time) the promotion sticks.



Also: let's please stop ignoring the way percentage bonuses are handled.

 

[goodolarchie]

No you don't. Quecha's have a base strength of 2 plus 100% against Archers for a total of 4. Archers start at 3 and get an innate city defence bonus of 50%, putting them at 4.5. Plus there's the fortification bonus and cultural defence. So the even the Quecha is attacking at a disadvantage, it's just not as much of one as the regular Warrior.

Yeah, the advantage here is that with combat 1 baseline, you can kill 2 animals/barbs on the way over, pick up cover or city raider. With barracks you can have both for a total modified strength of 155% vs city archers, plus combat 1 for a total modified 5.6 str (somebody check my math!). Hill capitals with culture still have a solid advantage (3 * 75% + fortify + culture/walls). Throw in garrison/bowman/protective AI and its pretty much a deal breaker. Either way you're seeing 60-80% combat odds until you get to a hill/garrison archers.

For this reason proximity, protective, and terrain will determine the success of your rush.

The reason I like barracks first is that after building the initial 6 quechuas and conquering the first civ, I lose fewer units and can piggyback an assault onto the next most threatening civ by capturing a non-hill city. Even though it wont likely be the capital, I can grab a choke city, steal a few more workers, disable their key resources, and cripple them for the rest of the game. I can finish them off later with swords and cats. All of this (hopefully) before the -1 DOW relations with the other civs on the continent. If you're going for cultural or diplo win I'm sure you don't need to warmonger past the first civ, but this is more immortal/deity level.

 

[Willem]

With barracks you can have both for a total modified strength of 155% vs city archers, plus combat 1 for a total modified 5.6 str (somebody check my math!).

It's a little off. Bonuses don't compound, they're calculated seperately according to the base value. So that would be +2 for the Archer bonus, +.2 for the Combat 1, and +.5 for Cover. That's 4.7, not 5.6. A little bit better than an Archer, at 4.5, but not by much.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Also: let's please stop ignoring the way percentage bonuses are handled.

Since Iranon asked...

There is indeed some minor misinformation in the lsat several posts.

Combat promotions are the only modifiers that ever directly affect the attacker's strength. All other modifiers whether they be attacker or defender bonuses are always added or subtracted from the defender bonuses. It's not very intuitive but it is how the game works so it can't be argued with.

Unless we start talking about Combat 2+ quechuas, the quechua base strength is always going to be 2.2. The 100% modifier against archers is always going to be subtracted from the poor ole archer's defense modifier. If the archer can't make up 100% worth of positive modifiers through other means, it's going to end up with a negative defense modifier! (and indeed this is not rare if you execute a quechua rush).

When a defender ends up with a negative overall defense modifier, it's strength is adjusted as follows:
(base strength) / (1+|modifier|)

Here is a typical example, screenshot taking using Advanced Combat Odds where the combat modifiers are ordered differently in an attempt to better show how the modifiers get applied. Note the value of the total defense modifier (-25%), and the adjusted strength of each unit: (2.2 and 2.4)


It is a combat 1 quechua (in other words no promotions beyond the free combat 1) vs. a stock archer with the full fortify bonus in a city.

It's worth mentioning that with the above combat odds, you'd have to expect to lose fewer than 1 quechua for every archer on average. Hills and/or protective archers make things more difficult obviously but I hope the example is fairly telling.

 

[goodolarchie]

Just to illustrate the potential of the quenchua rush, I played an interesting huge epic fractal emperor game today.

Spoiler :

I landed on a medium size continent with asaka 10 tiles away, Monty about 20 north, and Hannibal just beyond that. I cooked up 11 Quechuas, took Delhi with 4 of them + starter, sending the next two up north to harass monty. They arrived the exact turn he had hooked up copper, and oddly he only had 1 archer in the cap (delhi had 3). I got lucky, no hills on his cities. I had to regroup (the indian crusade was just arriving), so I hooked the copper back up and put out a few axes to finish off monty. I ended up with buddhism and hindu holy cities, later founding confu and theocracy. I ended up just finishing off hannibal because he's a bloody tech bogarting bastard and going legendary in Delhi, Cuzco, and Tenochtitlan around 1550 AD. I was limited on happy resources and made overseas contact a little late, but overall it was a landslide win because of the successful rush. Wonderspammers will delight in the fact that stone, marble and copper are all within earshot of Cuzco.

Here's the 4000bc save if anyone wants, I had a lot of fun in this game.