[C3C] Question about “ Replaces all Impr. with this Flag”

[CivFan94]

Hello Everybody!

Recently i have found some time to play (with editor of) this wonderful game due all world events that took place since start of this year. One box under Improvements section made me wondering about consenquences it might produce - it is “Replaces all Impr. with this flag”. I am familiar with it’s power plants function, aswell as it’s use for City Attributes in Worldwide mode.

But I could not find answer for this, even though I tried to Google it, search via search function on this forum and via manually opening threads.

Let me try to explain (English is not my main language so i apologise) - What if “Improvement-A” and “Improvement-B” have this flag checked. Bear with me, it is not that simple haha. Now, there is “Improvement-A2” which has prerequisite of “Improvement-A”. There is also “Improvement-B2” that has prerequisite of “Improvement-B”. Please, take a note that Improvement-A2 and Improvement-B2 DO NOT have “Replaces all Impr. with this flag” checked, just it’s prerequisites. To eliminate this out of equation - both of this first type (A and B) improvements have “1 production” (25%) bonus checked to make sure AI builds it - due known bug about “Replaces all Impr. with this flag“ without prodction bonus.

Now my question is - If Player/AI builds “Improvement-A” and “Improvement-A1” but then decides to build “Improvement-B” - will “Improvement-A1” still function as before (for example- still producing units or providing it’s bonuses)? I tried looking via Debug mode, but only thing I can see is that all 3 improvements are still in City, but can not see do they function.

If You have read all this and did not understand me, let me bog it down to it’s simpliest form. There are Temple and Market marked with “Replaces all Impr. with this flag“. If Player/AI builds Temple and then Cathedral which needs Temple first, and then decides to build Market - will Cathedral bonus still work even though Temple is replaced?

Thank You for reading and further input.

 

[Civinator]

Hi CivFan94, so I didn´t make a test about it, I think improvement-A1 will still be functional in the game.

Reason: This building in your example has no set flag that makes it obsolete. It doesn´t have the 'replaces all'-flag and it has no flag that it needs a special government (in that case the constructed building would still be in the city, but is not 'working' any longer when the government was changed). The only flag that could make that constructed building obsolete, is the setting in the editor of a tech that can make this building obsolete.

So (as long as improvement-A1 doesn´t go obsolete with the tech that allows improvement-B or B1) improvement A1 should stay functional. If a requisite tech for building B (or B1) makes building A1 obsolete, building A1 becomes obsolete, even when the possible buildings B (or B1) are not beeing built in that city.

p.s.: I´m not a great fan of the 'replaces all'-flag

 

[tjs282]

In the epic game, if a town has built a Temple and then a Cathedral, but the Temple is later destroyed by e.g. a riot or bombardment, then the Cathedral doesn't disappear, nor are its benefits lost.

(Although the AI won't) there is also nothing stopping the human player from selling off the Temple to save maintenance, after a Cathedral is completed.

So if Buildings A1 and A2 are built, then Building B1 is built (replacing Building A1), then I don't see any reason why Building A2 would disappear, or even stop providing its benefit.

AFAIK, the only thing that cuts off unit-autoproduction before the autoproducing building has been obsoleted, is if that building required a Resource(s) which has somehow been lost (e.g. exhausted, or Culture-stolen, or pillaged, or -- gulp -- conquered).

 

[CivFan94]

Please excuse my ignorance but I do not know how to multi quote and reply, so I will do it in the old way.

@Civinator
Hello Civinator! I will go a bit OT (excuse me mods haha) - You know how certain little things can bring You back to long gone time. Just like taste of Madeleine cake in Marcel Proust's novel “In Search of Lost Time“ that brings it’s protagonist to his childhood. Well, Your’s mode CCM brings me back to my elementary school time when i started to play CIV3. Big thank You.

Now, back to topic. You mentioned two cases 1. Special Goverment
2. Building being rendered obsolete by certain tech
I will add 3rd - I excluded culture out of equation aswell in case of losing improvement with that bonus.

I excluded this things on purpose in my question to simplify things. Because I wasn’t certain am I clear with my question.

Ofcourse I was looking in CCM’s biq to check have You used “Replaces all Impr. with this flag“ anywhere. I couldn’t find it. Then i started to look inside various topics of this (sub)forum. I used to have saved links to different topics arranged in some sort of chapters that were covering lots of useful stuff for modding - sadly most of those links are not working anymore. After long search I came across Worldwide mode - it is using “Replaces all Impr. with this flag“ on first tier of improvements (A and B in my opening question) but it did not further enhance those first tier improvements with A1 and B1 (let’s call it second tier) improvements - hence my question.
You used logical deduction in Your answer, I am on the same page with You. I just hoped someone did experiment and has experience with it since I have idea how to use it if it’s going to work like both of us think.

Also, why You declared as non Fan of using this option?
While we are on this topic, please feel free to write anything related to this option that You consider important - it might save me lot’s of time.

@tjs282
Hello tjs282!
Thank You for your answer. It looks like You are thinking like Civinator and me aswell. Your input about autoproducing unit in last paragraph actually answered my question - I conclude from it - that if that is case for autoproduction then there is no reason that A1 improvement will still provide it’s benefits even though it’s prerequisite improvement A is replaced with improvement B.

About selling temple, there was one mode, I think it was Rhye’s, where You were able to easily build Temple of Artemis for free temples, also pick up The Great Library for gold saving purposes. Also, Cathedrals appeared before Education so temples still existed. So You were in position to start building Cathedrals and finnish it with huge gold savings and anticipate Cultural Victory (earlier Cathedrals more culture) or You could let it finnish using shields, what matter was just to start building Cathedrals while temples were still free and active via Wonder - if I recall that is same case in any Epic game.

This post is getting long, but one bonus question - in case of temporary rendering obsolete certain improvement-C that has Tourist Atraction flag checked by switching to goverment that does not support that certain improvement-C, then switching back to goverment that again provides improvement-C, is time (years) still counted for that improvement even though it only existed as hidden (wasn’t deleted, sold, destroyed, rendered obsolete by Tech) while using other goverment, let’s say it was temporary obsolete?

 

[tjs282]

This post is getting long, but one bonus question - in case of temporary rendering obsolete certain improvement-C that has Tourist Atraction flag checked by switching to goverment that does not support that certain improvement-C, then switching back to goverment that again provides improvement-C, is time (years) still counted for that improvement even though it only existed as hidden (wasn’t deleted, sold, destroyed, rendered obsolete by Tech) while using other goverment, let’s say it was temporary obsolete?

I can't answer this question for certain, but I would suspect that only the absolute age of the building (i.e. building completion-date) would matter with respect to when you start getting the tourist-income. Someone a lot more familiar with the .biq and .sav file formats — like @Quintillus or @Puppeteer — might be better able to help out here.

Regarding buildings (and other things) with prerequisites, @Lanzelot wrote a helpful summary about the various buildings (mainly GWonders and SWonders) and projects (Worker-jobs etc.) in the epic game that require certain conditions to be fulfilled (and also what can happen if those prereqs are lost midway). If you haven't already seen it, some of that information (by extrapolation) might also be helpful to you:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/build-projects-with-prerequisites.533669/

In addition to @AnthonyBoscia's WorldWide (great mod!), you might also want to have a look at the .biqs for @Nathiri's Thelen Epres Mrel Nelthelrinae (something like that, anyway!) and @unartis' Earth Fantasy Mod (technically still in beta-testing, but might be interesting), since (IIRC) both of those also include buildings with the "Replaces all improvements..." flag. You can get to the download-links via their signatures, or their member-profiles.

 

[Civinator]

Also, why You declared as non Fan of using this option?

When building the plants with that flag in Civ3, the worse one becomes available again to be built when the better one was constructed in the city. I am suspicious, that this is a slingshot, the AI isn´t able to handle well. I write 'suspicious' as I didn´t do any time-consuming tests that would deliver facts. The other factor, that I´m not a fan of that flag, is the problem you are posting about.

In my eyes the best civers to answer your question, would be Antony Boscia, who created the mod Worldwide and Nathiri, who used that flag in his scenario, too.

In the Worldwide thread, Wolfshade made a post, that is somewhat similar to your question, but with the modification that A & B are excluding each other and the same is with the attributes : https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civilization-iii-worldwide.397575/page-13#post-10650160

I think this can work, when building A is also a prerequisite for building A1 and B for building B1 - but even now building A can replace the higher level buildings B1 - Bx (and all other higher level buildings C1-Cx and so on) what also can become a problem for the AI and therefore is another huge advantage of the human player against the AI.

 

[CivFan94]

@tjs282
Thanks for Lanzelot’s summary link. Some very interesting and good to know stuff can be found there. Saved it.
Will take a look during weekend at Nathori’s and unartis’ modes. Hope to find them useful aswell.

@Civinator
Agreed about plants. However, I tend to see it as flaw in design, hence if we decide to use that flag for same purpose we will get same result - but, what if we decide to use it for mutually exlclusive improvements that DO NOT provide same benefit? In that case earlier mentioned flaw in design is offering some sort of workaround for interesting options.
Sadly, mutually exclusive improvements with different benefits have to share one, if I recall correctly, the production bonus.

 

[Civinator]

- but, what if we decide to use it for mutually exlclusive improvements that DO NOT provide same benefit?

CivFan94, buildings that have this flag and can been built by the same civ are always 'mutually exclusive'. Different benefits that can be gained by these buildings are not relevant in that case.

 

[CivFan94]

@Civinator
I didn’t make myself clear. I agree it is flaw to have option to replace Hydro Plant with Coal Plant due flag or any other Plant that comes after Coal Plant for that matter.

But, in my previous post i was thinking along these lines - ImprovementA (let’s call it Encampment) allows Veteran Land Units to be trained, it is enhanced with ImprovementA1 that gives defensive boost to settlement and provides +50% Research Bonus. ImprovementB (let’s call it Trade Quaters) gives Increased Luxury Tax (or however is called that option - where You gain more happy people if You put more gold in Luxury tab) it is enchanced with ImprovementB that provides +50 Tax Revenue and reduces corruption.

Just look at this as example - now, in peace times Player can use Trade Quarters improvement active, as soon as it decides it’s time for war it can rebuild Encampment but lose Trade Quaters bonus and might have problem balancing settlement happines.

Idea is, one can never enjoy all structure benefits that building queue is offering.

Hope I made it clearer.

 

[Civinator]

Yes, I think we both mean the same. The problem is, that the human player can handle these 'switches' much better than the AI and therefore these settings in my eyes hold a huge advantage for the human player against the 'poor' AI, making games against the AI even less challenging - and this is why I´m not a fan of these flags

 

[CivFan94]

@Civinator
Ahh I see
Agreed. Thing is, if we take that position of view, in the end, as soon as AI stop being able to utilise it’s bonuses related to difficulty level it is handicaped versus human.

Btw, one question, so i don’t spam subforum with new threads - in bldg_main folder where is 256 buildings positioned - we can put 4 pictures in same row and relate it to eras in pediaicons and we can put 5 pictures in same row and relate it to culture groups via pediaicons. Is it possible to merge those options in one? Like first 2 eras there is bigger difference in appearence of buildings but we can agree that more or less in 3rd and 4th eras those could be represented with same icon. Not in every case but some buildings today look same in western and eastern world.
Most likely not, but i had to ask.

 

[Civinator]

Btw, one question, so i don’t spam subforum with new threads - in bldg_main folder where is 256 buildings positioned - we can put 4 pictures in same row and relate it to eras in pediaicons and we can put 5 pictures in same row and relate it to culture groups via pediaicons. Is it possible to merge those options in one? Like first 2 eras there is bigger difference in appearence of buildings but we can agree that more or less in 3rd and 4th eras those could be represented with same icon. Not in every case but some buildings today look same in western and eastern world.
Most likely not, but i had to ask.

As you assume, I think such a combination is not possible. If you want to have the same images for culture specific building images, not in general, but only for some eras, you have to split the building that is set to cultural specific images to several different era-specific buildings (so now you need more buildings to achieve that effect).

 

[CivFan94]

@Civinator
OK, thought so. Thank You. Hoped could squeeze some generic picture as 5th in row as later era type of improvement.

 

[Virote_Considon]

To add a dissenting opinion, I think a building might stop functioning if the prerequisite building is not in the city - in the unmodded game, I seem to recall Hydro Plants given by the Hoover Dam wonder only working in cities with a factory already.

 

[Civinator]

To add a dissenting opinion, I think a building might stop functioning if the prerequisite building is not in the city - in the unmodded game, I seem to recall Hydro Plants given by the Hoover Dam wonder only working in cities with a factory already.

Yes, that´s true about the hydroplants and the Hoover Dam GW. The hydroplants given by the Hoover Dam GW are present in all cities on the continent, but they only give a boost in shields, if there is still a factory in that city.

But I think in that example the constellation is reverse to the constellation, that was meant in post 1 of this thread (citate: "Please, take a note that Improvement-A2 and Improvement-B2 DO NOT have “Replaces all Impr. with this flag” checked, just it’s prerequisites"). In the example when the GW Hoover Dam provides a hydroplant, the normal-flagged factory is a prerequisite for the the building with the "replaces all"-flag. In this thread a "replaces all" building is the prerequisite for a building that doesn´t have that flag.

As posted, may be here Antony Boscia, the creator of the great mod "Worldwide" and Nathiri can explain more about this - and what is about all those civers who are playing that mod for many years ? What is their input to this topic ?

 

[CivFan94]

During weekend tried to download unartis' Earth Fantasy Mod but failed after numerous attempts. Was adviced to check his mod for questions rised in this topic.

On the other hand, currently I am still in process of setting up my mod - will give input as soon as I find time to finnish and test it, but it will take some time.

 

[Theov]

Interesting insights!
This seems exactly the same as my Civ1 project.
Civ1 works like this:
You can have a Factory +50%prod) OR a MFG Plant +100%prod) in your city. (A and B in above examples)
Then on top of these buildings you can have a Power Plant, Hydro Plant OR a Nuclear Plant.
I wonder if that is possible with the Civ3 editor, because how do I make it that the Factory effect is lost when you build an MFG Plant? Only with the "replace" flag. But I need that flag for the three addons (power/hydro/nuke)
And, I can't set into place that the Power/Hydro/Nuclear can have a prerequisite of EITHER a Factory OR MFG plant.

My solution can be one of two.
1: don't bother with the 'OR' when thinking of Factories or MFG Plants and just make the MFG Plant also increase the production with 50% (totalling 100%)
2: I make 2 kinds of the three addon plants, one that requires a factory and the others a MFG Plant, but I think this is a workaround that defeats the purpose.
And doesn't get the results I want because I can't let the Factory and MFG plant cancel each other and then let the three additions cancel each other seperately from that.

 

[576190]

Hi all

I was just looking at this subject in my mod, and literally came here looking for more info...

Anyway i have a building called a Pentangle that the AI never builds, so linked it to a Wonder and in this case the Wonder DOES get built by the AI great, thus putting a Pentangle in every city. But I've now flag Checked the Pentangle with the remove all flag.

Ok, I'm now using a second Wonder Spell Of fertility, which places the Summoning Circle in every city this is also flagged.

So am i correct in thinking, provided both Wonders are built then the Summoning Circle WILL replace all the Pentangles, but if the Pentangle is not made obsolete, then the AI could build one which would replace the Summoning Circle?

I must admit i'm having issues about getting the AI to actually construct the buildings I've setup for it. Do the other "Characteristics flags" increase the chance of the AI building them if they are flagged? Adding additional culture definitely increases the chance of a building being constructed, are there any other methods?

These buildings are specific to a major none playable race, so no chance of a human player abusing them, unfortunately not much chance of the AI either at the moment!


Thx All

 

[Theov]

Hi all

I was just looking at this subject in my mod, and literally came here looking for more info...

Same here

Anyway i have a building called a Pentangle that the AI never builds, so linked it to a Wonder and in this case the Wonder DOES get built by the AI great, thus putting a Pentangle in every city. But I've now flag Checked the Pentangle with the remove all flag.

Ok, I'm now using a second Wonder Spell Of fertility, which places the Summoning Circle in every city this is also flagged.

So am i correct in thinking, provided both Wonders are built then the Summoning Circle WILL replace all the Pentangles, but if the Pentangle is not made obsolete, then the AI could build one which would replace the Summoning Circle?

That sounds logical and thats how it works with buildings iirc

I dont know how to make the AI build things. You can flag it to make more of something (more off units, or more culture) so you might want to test that.

 

[Gojira54]

Interesting insights!
This seems exactly the same as my Civ1 project.
Civ1 works like this:
You can have a Factory +50%prod) OR a MFG Plant +100%prod) in your city. (A and B in above examples)
Then on top of these buildings you can have a Power Plant, Hydro Plant OR a Nuclear Plant.
I wonder if that is possible with the Civ3 editor, because how do I make it that the Factory effect is lost when you build an MFG Plant? Only with the "replace" flag. But I need that flag for the three addons (power/hydro/nuke)
And, I can't set into place that the Power/Hydro/Nuclear can have a prerequisite of EITHER a Factory OR MFG plant.

My solution can be one of two.
1: don't bother with the 'OR' when thinking of Factories or MFG Plants and just make the MFG Plant also increase the production with 50% (totalling 100%)
2: I make 2 kinds of the three addon plants, one that requires a factory and the others a MFG Plant, but I think this is a workaround that defeats the purpose.
And doesn't get the results I want because I can't let the Factory and MFG plant cancel each other and then let the three additions cancel each other seperately from that.

Has anyone tried having both a building and its prerequisite building have the flag? Meaning, in your case, the factory and MFG plant both have that flag, but the factory is a rereq of the MFG, so once you build the MFG the factory goes away?

If this works, you could actually make a line of buildings that upgrade over time. I wonder if the AI could even handle this, or if it would keep looping back to the first building in the chain and be stuck building forever...

Maybe if you made the first one a small wonder, which I THINK cannot be rebuilt once destroyed...?