Question - Culture metrics

[tmv]

Was the country named differently before and after these events? Yes? Then a different culture had been adopted.

There are cases where the country's name was the only thing that changed (like French Republic to French Empire in 1808, 4 years after Napoleon became emperor) and cases where a country's name remained the same although the country itself changed massively over time (the German Empire - as its official name - lasted from 1871 - 1945, until 1918 as a constitutional monarchy, then until 1930 as a presidential democracy, then until 1933/34 as some kind of elective dictatorship (when the Imperial President became the de facto lawgiver), then until 1945 as a full dictatorship - there were also quite a few changes of borders, especially during and after the First / during the Second World War, and the "cultural changes" (read: cultural decay) during the "Third Reich" cannot be overstated).

The new deal was just a civic change. Not a culture change. It did not redefine the cultural identity of the nation.

I suppose as a libertarian I should contest this.

Were not borders redrawn over the shifts in and out of the USSR?

They lost Finland and Poland, and (for a while) the Baltic States (until 1939/40). The creation of the Soviet Union is described in more detail by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Creation_of_the_USSR

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well cases like the Confederates becomes kinda of hard to define. On the one hand they are influenced heavily by American culture but then also the enemy faction of America (at least the Union).

I think we have to look at this from the original implementation of cultures in C2C, which was as "Culture Wonders" where if you had the resources in your city vicinity you could build the Unique Units that once were part of a Civilization you could pick to play in Vanilla game. Note the word "Wonders" is very important here in that they were not all linked together as you propose. Just like the Great Pyramids or Great Wall of China you did not have to be Egyptian or Chinese to build them. However then Regional cultures were added and then Culture Wonders were limited to those larger groups. And through assimilation you could "catch em all" of you wanted. Likewise you could try to do the same for normal wonders.

So I think we have to be very careful in how we deal with these culture wonders and their culture resources. If we get too specific in who links to who then we risk civs monopolizing on cultures that spawned from the earlier ones. Likewise If we get too specific then we cannot tell interesting stores in game where say you play as the Romans who live in Australia and built the Great Wall and obtained the Aztec culture and now have Jaguar Warriors and have converted to Islam!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There are, of course, Cultures that defy such an easy description. The bronze age one that existed only on the east coast of Europe from what we call Spain to Scotland and is the iron age culture that existed only in North Eastern France and Yorkshire come to mind.

 

[Rmi]

Made a new sheet.

15 regions
Every region should have 5 of each at least. More is all fine.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UnQH2CAnjUSk-Q0kTAlnegHE7q-uEJGGeLrEw3vx-mE/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Hydromancerx]

For the Americas maybe something like ...

- North America (West) - Anything West of the Mississippi in the US and Canada
- North America (East) - Anything East of the Mississippi in the US and Canada
- Mesoamerica - From Mexico to Panama
- Caribbean - All the islands in the Caribean
- South America (West) - Andes and Galapagos
- South America (East) - Amazon and Patagonia

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Galapagos is more Polynesian isn't it?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Not sure where to put the Arctic and Subarctic. But in general the west could be California + Northwest Coast + Great Basin + Plateau + Southwest + Great Plains. Unless we want to make the barrier like the Rocky Mountains.

So by region ...

Arctic
- Inuit

California
- Californian
- Chumash

Great Basin
- Paiute

Northeast
- American
- Chippewa
- Hopewell
- Huron
- Iroquois
- Mohawk
- Odawa
- Red Ocher

Northwest Coast
- Haida
- Klamath
- Nootka

Great Plains
- Apache
- Blackfoot
- Cheyenne
- Comanche
- Madan
- Sioux
- Texan

Plateau
- NONE

Southeast
- Cherokee
- Confederates
- Poverty Point
- Seminole

Southwest
- Anasazi
- Hopi
- Navajo
- Pima
- Zuni

Subarctic
- Canadian
- Cree
- Dene
- Quebec

Wow I am disappointed with the lack of California Indians. Pomo should be there for sure. Also adding in the Tongva since they are native to where I live would be nice.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Galapagos is more Polynesian isn't it?

Well their biosphere is mostly from South America. And as far as I know there are no Native Peoples of the Galapagos. However those that did visit them were from the Incans (and related groups). Basically it had no fresh water so no settlements were found there (so far).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galapagos

 

[Thunderbrd]

Anasazi

I learned this year that they like to be called the Ancient Pueblo now.

 

[Rmi]

I based the regions to roughly group together what we already have implemented.

If you want other regional boundries it's gonna take a lot of new cultures. All fine by me, i just haven't learned to code any of that yet.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

BtW religions fall into the following groups

• European
• African
• Middle Eastern
• Indian and Central Asia
  
• South and East Asia
• Arctic
• N American
• C American
• S American
• New Guinean/Australia
• Oceanic

 

[Thunderbrd]

I based the regions to roughly group together what we already have implemented.

If you want other regional boundries it's gonna take a lot of new cultures. All fine by me, i just haven't learned to code any of that yet.

On your document, have you included ALL of the cultures we've done?

I find the distinction between nations and peoples a bit interesting. Perhaps we SHOULD make that distinguishment ourselves to designate those as different idea categories. One would influence another. Only the nations would be given civic/civilization definitions.

Such Civilization definitions will exist but not be selectable except through the civic selection - it's so that you can define things like arts and such.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I learned this year that they like to be called the Ancient Pueblo now.

Ok ... I thought the Ana ...er .... "Ancient Pueblo" had no decedents and was a "lost civilization" much older than the other Southwest Indians?

*looks it up*

"In contemporary times, the people and their archaeological culture were referred to as Anasazi for historical purposes. The Navajo, who were not their descendants, called them by this term. Reflecting historic traditions, the term was used to mean "ancient enemies". Contemporary Puebloans do not want this term to be used."

Geeze, why can't we ever get any of the names right the first time? *shakes fist at past historians*

 

[Hydromancerx]

BtW religions fall into the following groups

• European
• African
• Middle Eastern
• Indian and Central Asia
  
• South and East Asia
• Arctic
• N American
• C American
• S American
• New Guinean/Australia
• Oceanic

What is the Arctic religion?

 

[Hydromancerx]

I based the regions to roughly group together what we already have implemented.

If you want other regional boundries it's gonna take a lot of new cultures. All fine by me, i just haven't learned to code any of that yet.

Regional bondies would be ool ffor the enture planet. However I was just proposing that North America be split into West, East, Mesoamerica and the Caribbean.

Note if we want to get very specific the RotH mod did something similar ...

Rise of the Homos
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/rise-of-the-homos-development-thread.351873/

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok ... I thought the Ana ...er .... "Ancient Pueblo" had no decedents and was a "lost civilization" much older than the other Southwest Indians?

They scattered, largely to the southeast. They didn't actually disappear so much as dissapated. The land could no longer support them and I strongly suspect that they were once heavily reliant on being a strong trading peoples between north and south but suffered raids from both who envied their wealth and resources. After a while it became too much and as the land underwent a drought and too many had to leave due to food and water shortages, too few remained to defend their society. The Navajo and Aztecs squeezed them out the rest of the way thereafter, so they dissolved into the woodwork of nearby peoples and camps allied with their individual families. I believe there was a great deal of infighting among them as well as they became very caught up in clannish competition between them.

They sure achieved more than most when they were strong and unified though. Their masonry was spectacular. Visited 3 of their most impressive sites earlier this year.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

What is the Arctic religion?

That stuff that leads into the Finnish, Inuit, Tengri and all the American religions

 

[Rmi]

Penguinism, obviously





(i know wrong arctic, sue me)

The Kalavala en Edda have germanic roots i believe. They are Polytheistic and have a 'hell' concept.

The Inuit and native american tribes religions are closest to shamanism in civ terms. They give reverence to the animals they need for their survival.

 

[Rmi]

ALL cultures that are now in game are in the database. That is over 400 cultures.
I have redefined all of those to fit into a category, that is purely for organization, there are no changes in code.

I am a proponent of the idea that we SPLIT the peoples category from the culture project.
Instead we can use these to provide the first option for civilizations.


For example, you start as the BLUE PLAYER, and you choose (or build) 'CELTS' when you get to a certain point.


The first option should be the bigger groups of people, like 'Celts' or 'Han Chinese'.
Smaller groups, like the Picts or Aka we can make a culture.

If this is a good idea, we should pick the PEOPLES that we want to form the base for playable civs.
And make sure each region has a few options.

I still think we should start with 12,15 or 16 regions. Firstly because too many regions defeats the purpose and secondly, so we can divide the map in a 4x3, 5x3 or 4x4 grid should that be necessary.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Penguinism, obviously

i know wrong arctic, sue me

We shall not tolerate such anti-arctic comments in this place of acceptance! Far too polarizing!

I still think we should start with 12,15 or 16 regions. Firstly because too many regions defeats the purpose and secondly, so we can divide the map in a 4x3, 5x3 or 4x4 grid should that be necessary.

If such a grid were divided evenly over an actual Earth map, would it produce fairly accurate results?

I'm thinking the game needs to define these regions on the map and I'm still trying to figure out how I'm going to work that.