Question for some Car Guys

[Skwink]

I'm looking at a 1997 RAV4. It has a good body, no damage, one little scratch. The interior is all good too, got a CD and Cassette player, and a sunroof. The car is $4,900, but there's one problem with it. It has about 170,000 miles on it.

The main reason we're looking at it is I need a car to drive and we'd like to have something with four wheel drive, and we're a Toyota family. Does the mileage make this a deal breaker?

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Have you checked the coming services for this kind of car? ..or what's been done to this car specifically..

Not sure..

 

[Borachio]

Looks rather expensive to me, at that age. I'm not sure the mileage is all that important, in itself. It's not inordinately high, imo. If it's all been long distance motoring at steady speed, it might be fine. ~12,000 miles a year is fairly average, I'd say.

So that's a thoroughly unhelpful "don't know" from me.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

You need to talk to rugbyleaguefan.

 

[Cutlass]

That's a lot of money for that age and mileage. $3,000 would be fairly high price unless it's perfect.

http://autos.yahoo.com/toyota/rav4/1997/

Ratings wise it's quit good. So you need to check the condition of that particular car than worry about the type.

http://www.kbb.com/toyota/rav4/1997-toyota-rav4/?r=129193332067364500

But no way would I pay $4,000 for it.

 

[Berzerker]

15 years and high miles does mean it aint a lemon but how's it ride?

if yer serious I'd pay a mechanic 40-50 to check it out

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

You need to talk to rugbyleaguefan.

What Cutlass said. It`s way too dear.

Now I don`t know the American used car market but I doubt, given that your new cars are any less than ours, that it is stronger.

As a trade-in, that car is maybe $1000. $1500 if it`s Miss Universe.

Retail? $4,000 tops. At $4,900 I`d want to be able to serve dinner off the engine.

Now I would assume that given it`s age you are not getting any warranty from a dealer (or a crappy warranty not worth the paper it`s printed on). If it`s a private sale then obviously no warranty.

So that begs the question why buy it retail when you can get it at auction for $1000 to $1500? Admittedly if it has problems you own it, but it`s still a better buy.

Or alternatively, if you have $5,000 you can get a 2002 model (approx) at auction.

Put simply, when it comes to old cars, retail is for suckers.

p.s. VRWC Agent should be able to confirm/deny some of the details here. But the principal holds true.

 

[Formaldehyde]

170K miles is a heck of a lot for any used car. Autotrader has a few 1999 RAV4s listed with 80K miles for $6K. There's even a 1998 listed with only 47K miles for $8K.

 

[Skwink]

Thanks for the info guys.

 

[Skwink]

When I looked up the RAV on Kelly Blue Book, and with all the features and mileage, in excellent condition (We're not sure if this one is, engine wise. Will get it checked if this turns serious), the suggested retail in $5,640. I don't know much about Cars and all, but Kelly Blue Book is a pretty good estimation, isn't it?

Link if you want to see it

Also, is it commonplace to barter down a price at used car dealerships?

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

I'm no expert on that particular guide, but those guides as a rule give notoriously inflated figures and cause me no end of trouble at work.

Head down to Kelly's after you buy it and ask them to cut you a cheque for $5640. The only appraisal worth anything is one backed by action.

 

[Borachio]

Also, is it commonplace to barter down a price at used car dealerships?

Forget it. The dealer goes out of business if he gets a reputation for being susceptible to bargaining. At least such is my experience.

You might negotiate on any trade-in though.

Expect to get slightly robbed. That's his living. Whereas you only buy a car every few years.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Forget it. The dealer goes out of business if he gets a reputation for being susceptible to bargaining.

You might negotiate on any trade-in though.

There is a difference between negotiating on the trade-in and the sale price?

Edit.....and it's the dealer who gets a reputation as being susceptible to bargaining that is in many ways more successful. The reality of the bargaining is what counts.

 

[Borachio]

Yes. Indeed there is. The sale price is what appears on the car screen. The dealer can't negotiate on that. He has to assume that if you're interested in that particular car you have that kind of money.

Of course in practice there is no difference in the transaction. But that's not the point. He simply can't allow you to go in and offer to buy a car advertised at 5000 for 4500 and meet anything but rejection, can he?

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Yes. Indeed there is. The sale price is what appears on the car screen. The dealer can't negotiate on that. He has to assume that if you're interested in that particular car you have that kind of money.

Of course in practice there is no difference in the transaction. But that's not the point. He simply can't allow you to go in and offer to buy a car advertised at 5000 for 4500 and meet anything but rejection, can he?

Well firstly, if someone makes me an offer on a car, even if it's too low, I'm glad that an offer is on the table. Let's say I can do $4500, do I accept it? No. What I can do doesn't concern me, what you will do does. I would still prefer $4501. So the offer of $4500 means we are doing business, at what price remains unanswered.

Secondly, selling cars to fit peoples budget is salesman suicide. Sell the car that suits the desire. Most people will more readily overspend to get what they really want than buy something they kinda like to save a few bucks. And to be honest, even if what you want can be sold within your budget, I'm not here to meet your budgetary concerns, I'm here to meet my employers. Sounds bad but that holds true for all businesses.

 

[Borachio]

Well, perhaps it's a cultural thing, then. I can only tell you how second hand car dealers operate here.

No doubt in Egypt (chosen randomly), they advertise cars at double the price and accept half.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Well, perhaps it's a cultural thing, then. I can only tell you how second hand car dealers operate here.

No doubt in Egypt (chosen randomly), they advertise cars at double the price and accept half.

Sorry but I`ll have to disagree my man. If anything this is the anthisis of a cultural thing. The workings of the market are very similar everywhere.

If an Egyptian advertises his product at double what he can sell it for and remain profitable, then he will quickly lose customers to a competitor who can advertise at a 20% lower price and still make good money.

I think the crux of the misunderstanding is the belief that the price is driven by what the dealer can sell the car for. This is merely the line below which, at that price, the dealer will not sell the car. (Sure the car says $5,000 and if in the rare instance that somehow this is a car that the dealer is desperate to get out of, he may have slashed the advertised price to $5,000 and won`t budge as he knows he will get it if he is patient, but this is the exception to the rule).

The reason it appears so difficult to get the price down to $4500 (assuming it is a price that is doable) is that just because it can be done is irrelevant to what the seller wants to achieve, which is quite simply, more. I assure you that if you walk away, you won`t get out of the driveway before your offer is accepted. And the dealer will be happy, as you walked at $4501 but accepted $4500 so he has maximised what he could have gotten from you.

There also needs to be a clear distinction between cars advertised in the press, TV and more and more commonly and particularly, the internet. I have my cars dirt cheap on the internet, literally to the bone. It is so cutthroat that the only way to get a "click" is this way. But once you come in, that`s it, not a zak off. In many cases I don`t actually want to do the deal unless I nick your trade in, sell some accessories or finance etc. But I`ll still do it if I have to as it is the right thing to do. If you had have just walked in off the street, i will probably kick you off thousands of dollars dearer and go from there (and pray to God you don`t jump on the internet later)

 

[Borachio]

Sorry but I`ll have to disagree my man. If anything this is the anthisis of a cultural thing. The workings of the market are very similar everywhere.

If an Egyptian advertises his product at double what he can sell it for and remain profitable, then he will quickly lose customers to a competitor who can advertise at a 20% lower price and still make good money.

I think the crux of the misunderstanding is the belief that the price is driven by what the dealer can sell the car for. This is merely the line below which, at that price, the dealer will not sell the car. (Sure the car says $5,000 and if in the rare instance that somehow this is a car that the dealer is desperate to get out of, he may have slashed the advertised price to $5,000 and won`t budge as he knows he will get it if he is patient, but this is the exception to the rule).

The reason it appears so difficult to get the price down to $4500 (assuming it is a price that is doable) is that just because it can be done is irrelevant to what the seller wants to achieve, which is quite simply, more. I assure you that if you walk away, you won`t get out of the driveway before your offer is accepted. And the dealer will be happy, as you walked at $4501 but accepted $4500 so he has maximised what he could have gotten from you.

There also needs to be a clear distinction between cars advertised in the press, TV and more and more commonly and particularly, the internet. I have my cars dirt cheap on the internet, literally to the bone. It is so cutthroat that the only way to get a "click" is this way. But once you come in, that`s it, not a zak off. In many cases I don`t actually want to do the deal unless I nick your trade in, sell some accessories or finance etc. But I`ll still do it if I have to as it is the right thing to do. If you had have just walked in off the street, i will probably kick you off thousands of dollars dearer and go from there (and pray to God you don`t jump on the internet later)

There you go. Walk off a dealership here, and you walk off. End of story. You can try bargaining with a dealer but you'll find you get less. I have tried, believe me.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

There you go. Walk off a dealership here, and you walk off. End of story. You can try bargaining with a dealer but you'll find you get less. I have tried, believe me.

Thats hardly a compelling case. I meant what i said figuratively in the sense that the lowest price is only reached when all other avenues have been exausted.

Also, and this is SIGNIFICANT. Don`t confuse discussing the lowest price of a car with negotiating. If you are not prepared to buy the car then and then and leave a deposit if the price is agreeable, well then you are hardly negotiating or bargaining. It`s merely chit chat and chit chat never gets anywhere in real terms.

 

[Borachio]

<nvm>