Question regarding Fascism

[Hal.E]

Hello,

I was just wondering, as Fascism has the xenophobic tag does this means that it ethnicly cleanses or something?

The logic behind my question is that as it gives a pop hit, is this non nationals being removed?

I have never gotten far enough into a game to use it so I am unsure as to what it does beyond the civilopedia.


Thanks,

Hal

 

[shl7070]

Xenophobic means the following:

No culture can be gained in a city with foreign majority. The foreigners doesn't disappear anywhere, just if you rush a temple in a foreign majority city no culture will be produced until your nationals gain majority there.

In addition upon switch to Fascism every town will have on time losing of population at the following rate:
1- in town, 2-in city and 3 in metro.

 

[GamezRule]

I just assume it is to represent the Holocaust.

 

[Raliuven]

Okay, I don't have C3C but that is just stupid. Why wouldn't communisim have the same penalty? For that matter, a communist nation should be unable to build or benefit from a religious build. Isn't religion the opium of the people? Game mechanics being what they are, I'm glad I have PTW.

 

[shl7070]

If opening a historical debate It's not entirely true that communism can't benefit from religion in the broad sense, Especially the semi-religious personality cults that were common in real-world communist countries (Lenin,Stalin,Kim etc...)
Lets say that they converted cathedrals and temples to communist propaganda centers and colosseums-they work in every government, in communism even better then in democracy. People need escape from the harsh realities of dictatorship.
Regarding slaughtering people, that's true but most if not all of the mass killing was done at the countryside, not in cities, the only counter-example was Pol-Pot, if one could switch to pol-potism all cities will shrink to one pop , no shields will be produced, when enough food accumulates to grow the city doesn't grow,instead one guerilla is produced and food box empties.

 

[ChaosArbiter]

It's more likely that the population reduction from the switch is to imitate the flight of people from the state, much as 'undesirables' tried to do in the mid-late '30s.

 

[Raliuven]

It's more likely that the population reduction from the switch is to imitate the flight of people from the state, much as 'undesirables' tried to do in the mid-late '30s.

Historically I see what you are saying even if it could be argued for another 10 pages about how such factors are not taken into account for other governments. It would make more sense to simulate this 'heavy hand' by inflicting large pop-rush penalties - this would simulate that if you are going to be that type of facist ruler (and isn't that a funny statement), then this is the result. Just seems odd to me. I hope the benefits make it a worthwhile swap!

Do a lot of players use facism? It seems like you could inflict a lot of damage on an AI by making them change. Make peace, let them revert to democracy. Declare, decimate their population. Make peace. Repeat.

 

[ChaosArbiter]

Do a lot of players use facism?

Not that I'm aware of ... it is a pretty strong government, but it's late-game, and unless you've done something strange, Communism is probably going to be a better choice.

It seems like you could inflict a lot of damage on an AI by making them change. Make peace, let them revert to democracy. Declare, decimate their population. Make peace. Repeat.

Maybe, although that does depend on them not staying in War-time mode for some other reason, and I've seen the AI stay in it when at peace anyway. Not to mention that the only times I can really see it being useful (higher-level games), the AI bonuses would probably make it less of an issue anyway.

 

[MysteryX]

This may be partially off-topic, but how does the AI decide which government to use?

I've noticed that in Conquests, late in the game, a lot of AI opponents use Fascism, most of the rest will use Democracy. I saw a lot of Communism in PTW, but I rarely see it in Conquests.

It's been my assumption that when an AI opponent acquires a new government "technology," there is a certain percent chance it will adopt the new government. Possibly influenced by factors of whether that opponent is at war or peace, or some sort of preference based on civilization abilities.

If I'm right, that would explain why a lot of AI opponents end up with Fascism- it's usually the last government "technology" acquired, so thus would be the last time a civilization considered "should I switch to the new government form?" Plus, late in the game, every AI opponent has had a good opportunity to get into one of those never-ending wars with another opponent at whom it has become perpetually furious. It could also explain why Democracy is the second most popular late in the game (since Democracy is usually obtained after Communism; it is the second-to last chance for an AI to ask, "Should I switch to this government?")

Edit: I am wrong about my where I thought I remembered the different governments being on the research tree. Democracy is usually going to come first (late medieval era), with Fascism and Communism both being availabe early in the industrial era, each as one step beyond Nationalism.

 

[shl7070]

The AI algoritm for governments probably yakes into consideration unit support, total commerce income and worker efficiency. They plan short term only so they take into account only the shape of the empire in a few turns.
Their normal governments are monarchy, republic, democracy, fascism.

Why Fascism? I believe that the following factors need to be considered:
1) Unit support- The AI overbuild units and improvements so they have little spare income. Fascism unit support is the best. (The AI spends 60-80% of income to tax, humans spend comparable amounts only for zero-research gambit strats, otherwise they will use 30% or less)
2) Size- AI rarely reach size that will benefit communism over fscism, especially taking into consideration that their fringe/overseas cities don't have improvements ( and the AI can't plan to the moment they will.
3) Workers- The AI likes to cover all the land with mines and rails, even unworked tiles and tiles that are never going to be worked. They also have few workers and this is one of the reasons they love Fascism and Democracy.
4) Entertainers- The AI doesn't ever use the lux slider, when the buildings aren't enough they'll use entertainers. The fascism pop loss will hurt them less in comparison to humans as they will lose entertainers only.
5) War weariness- Many switches to fascism are during AI-AI wars, generating war weariness, the war weariness is somewhat bugged in human-AI wars especially if human is victorious. Both sides gain ww when human cites fall to the AI, none when AI cities fall to human. If war weariness increases that AI can't handle it (they can't because they don't use the slider) they will switch to "best" non-ww government available from their prospective- Fascism if available, communism-if no fascism and monarchy if no communism or fascism.

 

[GamezRule]

The AI loves feudalism on low levels.

 

[Takhisis]

I've never, ever, used Fascism.

 

[GamezRule]

I used it once, it really isn't that bad. The Xenophobe thing is really reduced as far as culture goes if you play with proper spacing.

 

[Stratagist IV]

Depending on map size and the victory type I'm going for I use facism quite often, I personally think that the hangup most people have with it is the "evil" factor.... but I'll save my rantings about good and evil in every government for later.

Xenophobic, yes is annoying but is easily overcome by whipping. Fascism is strange in that it actually makes whipping advantageous. If you say, whip a temple then a granary, in short order you won't have the xenophobe problem. As for the population loss, that to me is made up for by the increased worker speed. Since you don't need as many workers (200%, holy crap) go join them back into your core cities. Problem solved.

I find the advantages of fascism, mainly the unit support and the "always mobilized" feeling far outweigh these minor setbacks if you can adapt properly

 

[bigFRANK]

Yep Fascism can work fairly well if your expanding overseas using force, ICS for unit support, workers doing the job of 2 men, slaves doing the job of a normal worker, most cities able to produce something for the war effort and no one crying give peace a chance in your core cities should you have a couple of battle field reversals.

 

[Desertsnow]

I have never been a Fascist myself, though some swear by it. I'll probably end up trying it eventually, but usually I just go to Communism.

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

Fascism means rule by force. The population hit is to show the effect of totalitarian military state, not just nazi germany

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

I'm a Fascist (not in real life) usually when Im behind and have an undeveloped country I use this government.

 

[Raliuven]

Fascism means rule by force. The population hit is to show the effect of totalitarian military state, not just nazi germany

And despotism and communism are not equally brutal? Forced labor for rush building shows the effects of the government's treatment of its people. Why the double hit? However, if you receive a 200% worker bonus, then maybe you can argue that you take the hit because you 'worked' all the weaklings to death.

Either way, pretending that communism was not at least as effective at killing its own poeple as facisim is a little silly. For that matter, every mode of government is a pretty good at doing that job for any class of citizen it preceives as undesirable.

 

[GamezRule]

I find it ironic that Fascism receives a bigger worker bonus then Communism.