Questions about History, I never thought about.

[nokmirt]

I have a few questions.

I have some questions about US Cavalry during the Civil War, or on camapign against indians. You see, I am trying to write a story and there are some, probably many things I do not know about camplife and what you did or did not do. For instance...

Did US cavalry regiments use cooking fires when on campaign against indians?

What were the best locations to bed down for the night? And how were pickets and guards posted, to keep the column safe during the night?

Did they bring tents or did they sleep outside? I heard for instance Custer did not bring tents on campaign. Or sabers either for that matter.

I would love to know a bit about Indian tactics, the particular indians in my story are armed with bows and arrows, no firearms at this point. They are horsemen, but do not have rifles, in this case. How would they lure a cavalry regiment into a fight they could win? I was thinking of having them hold onto some white hostages, and the cavalry gets word and tries to rescue them. A battle then ensues with the US Cavalry regiment winning but at great cost. Thanks for suggestions.

Any other information would be helpful for me to try to bring History alive.

 

[ParkCungHee]

[quoute]I would love to know a bit about Indian tactics, the particular indians in my story are armed with bows and arrows, no firearms at this point.[/quote]
I'm not an expert in this field, but I'd point out that by this time this would be highly unusual. Almost all Native Americans war parties by this point were armed with firearms.

 

[nokmirt]

[quoute]I would love to know a bit about Indian tactics, the particular indians in my story are armed with bows and arrows, no firearms at this point.

I'm not an expert in this field, but I'd point out that by this time this would be highly unusual. Almost all Native Americans war parties by this point were armed with firearms.[/QUOTE]

I will add a few here and there but I want them to have their traditional weapons. I have reasons for having them armed with bows. It is a civ story.

 

[North King]

Well, the thing is, there's a reason they abandoned them. That being that it's rather difficult to win a fight with bows, especially their bows, which weren't terribly sophisticated, IIRC.

 

[nokmirt]

Well, the thing is, there's a reason they abandoned them. That being that it's rather difficult to win a fight with bows, especially their bows, which weren't terribly sophisticated, IIRC.

Well the Sioux in this story, don't have that technology yet, yes it sounds funny, but they don't. So I will have to help them use their brains. Ambush or a trap I suspect, they will have some leverage having hostages. This green cavalry is in for it, but they will learn a valuable lesson. We all know firepower will win the day, but there will be a cost.

Remember one thing, that Custer's five companies, still would have been massacred by Indians with clubs, bows and arrows, knives, and spears. Because he was far outnumbered, and his horses were scared away. In fact from what I hear, Custer's men, would have loved to have had their saber's with them. There was alot of close in fighting and hand to hand combat, with Custer and Reno's seperate commands. Reno with his force of 90 men, was lucky to get thirty of his troopers away alive. If Colonel Benteen did not arrive with help, Reno too, along with his remaining forces, may have been killed. Firepower is not the only thing to take into consideration during a battle.

However my concern is not the question of firepower, really what I would like to know, is how the indians would react when they found out a cavalry regiment was tracking them. If they knew they were outgunned, how would they lure the enemy into a trap. And on the other side of the coin, what precautions would the cavalry take when they set up camp for the night. Did Indians attack at night under cover of darkness, using stealth? I guess I am looking for some advice based on historical fact, on these questions, and erhaps things I have not thought of. Thanks for any feedback.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

So if your story is not historically accurate, why did you start a thread asking for historically accurate information?

 

[EnglishEdward]

Did US cavalry regiments use cooking fires when on campaign against indians?

You need to distinguish between a prolonged sally forth, lengthy patrol or hot pursuit of no more than a few days (for which the cavalry would have traveled fast and light and managed on hard tack and biscuits) from a short campaign of weeks (when the cavalry would likely have had baggage trains, food animals and cooking fires).

What were the best locations to bed down for the night?

Dry ground. Away from snakes. Perhaps in a forest with lookouts guarding the paths or on upper ground away from overlooking cover.

And how were pickets and guards posted, to keep the column safe during the night?

I do not know.

Did they bring tents or did they sleep outside? I heard for instance Custer did not bring tents on campaign.

In the North in winter, Yes. In the South in summer, No

I would love to know a bit about Indian tactics, the particular indians in my story are armed with bows and arrows, no firearms at this point. They are horsemen, but do not have rifles, in this case. How would they lure a cavalry regiment into a fight they could win?

Consider the era.

Indians with Bows and Arrows against Cavalry with Muzzle Loading Muskets

OR

Indians with single shot guns against Cavalry with repeating rifles.

Indians with Bows and Arrows against Cavalry with repeating rifles
happens in South America where the Indians get wiped out.

I was thinking of having them hold onto some white hostages, and the cavalry gets word and tries to rescue them. A battle then ensues with the US Cavalry regiment winning but at great cost. Thanks for suggestions.

You can be historically realistic OR romantic.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Well the Sioux in this story, don't have that technology yet, yes it sounds funny, but they don't. So I will have to help them use their brains. Ambush or a trap I suspect, they will have some leverage having hostages. This green cavalry is in for it, but they will learn a valuable lesson. We all know firepower will win the day, but there will be a cost.

WArfare was nothing new to the Indians and they could think both strategically and tactically as needed.Even without reading Jomini they could easily figure out to ambush or create diversions or chase away the cavalry's horses to trap them.

The strategic situation worked to their disadvantage because they lived in unfortified villages and were dependent upon hunting to live. The US cavalry just had to make sure they burned and pillaged the villages during the best months for collecting for the winter. And when you add breach loading carbines, a policy of no mercy, and disease to the mix, the end is inevitable.

Alsokeep in mind that in Sioux warfare "counting coup" or touching an enemy without killing him was significant and could be more important than killing him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_coup

The Indians had no way of stopping the logistical system supporting the cavalry and the cavalry could easily disrupt it for the Sioux.

 

[nokmirt]

You need to distinguish between a prolonged sally forth, lengthy patrol or hot pursuit of no more than a few days (for which the cavalry would have traveled fast and light and managed on hard tack and biscuits) from a short campaign of weeks (when the cavalry would likely have had baggage trains, food animals and cooking fires).




Dry ground. Away from snakes. Perhaps in a forest with lookouts guarding the paths or on upper ground away from overlooking cover.




I do not know.




In the North in winter, Yes. In the South in summer, No




Consider the era.

Indians with Bows and Arrows against Cavalry with Muzzle Loading Muskets

OR

Indians with single shot guns against Cavalry with repeating rifles.

Indians with Bows and Arrows against Cavalry with repeating rifles
happens in South America where the Indians get wiped out.




You can be historically realistic OR romantic.

Thanks very much your answers they are very helpful, and what I was looking for. It is a civ story which I am trying to describe as an alternate history.

I have a regiment of cavalry chasing or tracking down two groups of Sioux Indian horse archers. I want to describe it as if it happened in real life. That's why I am asking these questions. It is easy to read history, but to put yourself there, and try to write what is really happening as if you were there in that time period. That is far more difficult. I could say, yes Custer was killed along with his men, because I read it in a History book. It is easy reading history, but writing to bring it alive takes more practical knowledge about what went on in detail, and I mean down to when to take a crap, without losing your scalp. I hope everyone understands what I am trying to do.

WArfare was nothing new to the Indians and they could think both strategically and tactically as needed.Even without reading Jomini they could easily figure out to ambush or create diversions or chase away the cavalry's horses to trap them.

The strategic situation worked to their disadvantage because they lived in unfortified villages and were dependent upon hunting to live. The US cavalry just had to make sure they burned and pillaged the villages during the best months for collecting for the winter. And when you add breach loading carbines, a policy of no mercy, and disease to the mix, the end is inevitable.

Alsokeep in mind that in Sioux warfare "counting coup" or touching an enemy without killing him was significant and could be more important than killing him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_coup

The Indians had no way of stopping the logistical system supporting the cavalry and the cavalry could easily disrupt it for the Sioux.

Thank you for your feedback. I did not know about "counting coup" and this surely expands my imagination, on how to use this is my telling of this tale. This is the kind of feedback I need to strengthen my story. I think I will use the stealing of horses for this purpose, the cavalry's survival is of course dependent on horses. That's one reason the Comanches gave us so much trouble, they were excellent horse thieves. I have alot of ideas coming into my head, it is one reason I started this thread. If you do not have the answers, one only has to simply look.

So if your story is not historically accurate, why did you start a thread asking for historically accurate information?

It is alternate history, and how are you Cheezy?

 

[Zkribbler]

One thing you might try is reading about the battles of the great war chiefs. This quote is taken from Wikipedia's article on Crazy Horse:

Fetterman Massacre
On December 21, 1866, Crazy Horse and six other warriors, both Lakota and Cheyenne, decoyed Capt. William Fetterman's 53 infantrymen and 27 cavalry troopers under Lt. Grummond from the safe confines of Fort Phil Kearny on the Bozeman Trail into an ambush. Crazy Horse personally lured Fetterman's infantry up what Wyoming locals call Massacre Hill while Grummond's cavalry followed the other six decoys along Peno Head Ridge and down towards Peno Creek, where several Cheyenne women were taunting the soldiers. Meanwhile, Cheyenne leader Little Wolf and his warriors, who had been hiding on the opposite side of Peno Head Ridge, blocked the return route to the fort. The Lakota warriors then came over Massacre Hill and attacked the infantry. There were additional Cheyenne and Lakota hiding in the buckbrush along Peno Creek behind the taunting women, effectively surrounding the soldiers. Seeing that they were surrounded, Grummond headed back to Fetterman to try to repel them in numbers. The soldiers were wiped out by a warrior contingent numbering almost 1,000. In some history books it is known as Red Cloud's War, but Red Cloud was not present that day. The ambush, known as the Fetterman Massacre,[8][9][10] was at the time the worst Army defeat suffered on the Great Plains.[7]

Other great war chiefs include: Red Stick, Red Cloud, Tecumseh, Sitting Bull, Geronimo, and Cochise.

["Lakota" is the proper name for the Sioux. "Sioux" is the Piute for "enemy." The Piutes served as scouts for the whites, which is how "Sioux" found its way into American history books.]

 

[trickofthehand]

Well, the thing is, there's a reason they abandoned them. That being that it's rather difficult to win a fight with bows, especially their bows, which weren't terribly sophisticated, IIRC.

Not if they fortify for a few turns on a wooded hill for the extra 75% defense bonus.

 

[Padma]

["Lakota" is the proper name for the Sioux. "Sioux" is the Piute for "enemy." The Piutes served as scouts for the whites, which is how "Sioux" found its way into American history books.]

I just had to make an aside about this. "Sioux" is actually (North American) French, a slang contraction of Nadouessioux, which was a French-spelling of an Ojibway (Algonquian) word Natowessiwak, a pejorative-diminuative meaning, roughly, "little snakes".

In essence, your meaning is the same, as all tribes had less-than-flattering names for their neighbors, e.g. the "waft of fish odor" band of Poncas.

 

[Ruggerbunny]

Dry ground. Away from snakes. Perhaps in a forest with lookouts guarding the paths or on upper ground away from overlooking cover.

Forests are poor places for cavalry, they limit movemen t and break up formations, two things key to cavalry tactics. Read "Defense of Duffers Drift" if you want a breif idea on cavalry tactics. Not about American Wets but an easy read and cover the basic points.

I even found it online.

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/swinton/swinton.asp

 

[Louis XXIV]

One thing you might try is reading about the battles of the great war chiefs. This quote is taken from Wikipedia's article on Crazy Horse:



Other great war chiefs include: Red Stick, Red Cloud, Tecumseh, Sitting Bull, Geronimo, and Cochise.

["Lakota" is the proper name for the Sioux. "Sioux" is the Piute for "enemy." The Piutes served as scouts for the whites, which is how "Sioux" found its way into American history books.]

The Iroquois are the same way. A lot of names we commonly refer to tribes come from their enemies.

 

[ParkCungHee]

The Iroquois are the same way. A lot of names we commonly refer to tribes come from their enemies.

It's not that unusual to refer to a people by a term that is completely foreign to them.

 

[sydhe]

It's not that unusual to refer to a people by a term that is completely foreign to them.

In fact, some names actually mean "foreigner". "Welsh", "Vlach", "Walloon"