Quick Answers / 'Newbie' Questions

A few questions:

1. Just wanted to make sure I build right :) IIRC it was build farm on "brown" and mine on "green" back in CivIII days. Is it still the same today? What about other tiles? In general build food on food starved stuff and mines where you need hammers right?
(exceptions are specialised tiles like game/gold/cow)

2. Does road improve on tiles production and how much? Also when does this happen? Do you build road first or improve first?

3. I noticed Pyramid doesn't give grannaries all over the place anymore. What other wonder people rush early in the game? (I went with stonehendge no idea why)

4. IIRC in Civ3 "best" allaround goverment (or what was it called) was Democracy, is it still the same this time around or?

Think I'll leave it at that :P Will bother you with religion and civics later on :)

Thank you for your time!
 
a4phantom said:
RJ: In the options there is a setting called 'wait at the end of turn'. Without this option checked, you will move to the next turn just after moving all your units. This means that you can't check your cities after moving all your units. Not my preference, but to each his own, I guess.

There's also the danger of the turn ending before you react to barbarians or other marauders by waking and moving sleeping units.

Two questions:

1. I appreciate the feedback on the "when do I build my first worker" question, and would appreciate it if more of the experts would weigh in on it.

I thought that the answer given by lost_civantares was quite good, maybe a bit short because not a lot of explanation was given. So I'll elaborate a bit on what he/she said.

In civilization (and actually any other builder/conquerer game), the main goal is to grow strong. You want big productive cities and a technologically advanced empire with huge armies. The question is how to get there as fast as possible. How to increase your strength as fast as possible.
This sounds very trivial, but people seldom actually compare two different paths that lead to growth of your civilization. They don't sit down and think about it. It's not always easy to do however I think it is quite possible in this case.

First the qualitative statement that a city that has grown a few times is not much better than a starting city if those tiles aren't improved in any way (especially since the capital gets + 8 commerce from the palace). Improved tiles are much better than unimproved tiles. That's why you want to have a worker as fast as possible (as long as there is something to do for it).


You have a size one city that can build a worker or grow to size 2. What is the better way to increase the rate at which your strength grows?
If the worker can't build anything when it will be finished then it is useless to build it now. However, at the same moment you can research a technology that allows you to improve the land or chop forests for production.

Lets assume that we research a technology that enables some worker improvements because otherwise the answer to the question it trivial.

I'll use typical numbers: A city of size 1 unimproved by workers produces 2 hammers and 2 extra food. If the city grows to size 2 and still doesn't have any improved tile it will gain a 2 food, 1 hammer tile extra. The 2 food will be consumed meaning that the city produces 3 hammers and 2 extra food.

Case 1: Build worker first:
-The worker will be finished at turn 15.
-If the worker can't improve the food harvest of the city, then the city will grow at turn 26.

Case 2: Grow to size 2 and then build worker:
-The city will grow to size 2 in 11 turns.
-The worker will be finished at turn 23.

In case 1, we will have a worker 8 turns before case 2. These 8 turns can be used to build almost 2 tile improvements. For instance, we could chop 2 forests for 40 hammers or build a farm on a food bonus tile for + 2 food. The extra food would make the city in case 1 grow 8 turns (some calculation behind that but it's not always the same, game dependent) after it has build the worker or at turn 23.
With the right starting techs, you could even build mines and farms at the moment the worker has finished in case 1. In that case, when the city grows to size 2, you could have a city using an improved food tile plus an improved hammer tile. This could easily result in a size 2 city producing +2 food and 6 hammers or +3 food and 5 hammers instead of an unimproved city producing +2 food and 3 hammers (assuming a farmed tile of 4 food and a mined plains or grassland hill).

If you choose to go forest chopping then the 40 hammers head start could give you all sorts of nice things. A nice head start on another worker or settler for instance, maybe a barracks when you fancy that approach.

Of course the worker build in case 2 can do the same improvements, but it will always be 2 improvements behind. The advantages of having the improvements earlier and being in front with these improvements will pay off big time. Like your money on the bank in real life, it's better to have it earlier so that it will start earning interest earlier. The interest from the tile improvements is the speedup in building all kinds of things that speed up the growth of your empire.

All of this of course depends on the availability of the necessary terrain improvement technologies.

There are of course some advantages of case 2. The first 11 turns while growing it can build something that the city in case 1 can only build after it has finished the worker while the city in case 2 is building the worker. The only thing that could be finished in those 11 turns is a warrior or scout. That could help you in exploring the terrain a little. I personally use my first warrior/scout for that and later build one to guard my city or more when more scouting/barbarian containment is needed. Theoretically, it is possible that the extra early scouting unit could help you find a bonus hut that gives you something nice. However, I play at high levels so these bonuses are not that valuable (you get less good things from huts at high levels) and I also don't like to gamble too much. I like to play in a secure way to victory.


a4phantom said:
2. What do people use horse archers, knights and cavalry for? Since they lack city raider and have very hard counters (spears, pikes and rifles), as well as no defensive terrain bonus, even though they have high base strengths and mobility they don't seem that useful in combat. Strong against cats and cannons, but Roland Johanson tells us that collateral damage done to your stack is independent of how well your defending unit beats the attacking seige. It seems to me that their true purpose is to pillage, since they can pillage a (flat) square on the turn they move into it. When I send mounties to pillage, I send a defensive infantry unit or two along with to cover them. So why is a knight or a horse archer better than a chariot? Maybe protecting a stack of melee from axes and crossbows?

jayron32 gave some excellent answers to this. I fully agree.

I especially like their use as defenders against pillagers.
In a war I typically retreat in my cities and have an army or maybe two going for the enemy cities. The enemy also comes with stacks for my cities and I meet them at the gates of these cities with artillery type units to weaken them and units that counter their stacks (which could be cavalry type units).
However, often the AI also moves lonely pillagers or tiny groups of pillagers in my territory. Often a cavalry type unit has the best chance of victory against these. Also, if you kill the enemy, then you can retreat your cavalry type unit to a city to heal. Your slow infantry units often have to stay one turn out of your city and are vulnerable to counter attacks often resulting in the loss of your precious unit.
I get some very experienced cavalry units by using them as counter pillagers.

Sometimes a stack has no anti cavalry units or only one anti cavalry unit. In that case an attack by cavalry can be the most efficient attack method.

A cavalry type unit in a stack can be the best defender against some types of units.

I seldom pillage enemy lands as they are soon to be my lands.:D So I don't use them for that. However, they could be used for pillaging.
One disadvantage of pillaging is that you tend to lose units when you go in small groups and I just don't think it is worth it to lose the unit against the AI's loss of improvements.

Cavalry type units should seldom be used against cities. Outside of cities they are often the best unit:
The best counter for the axeman and catapult is the horse archer.
The best counter for the catapult, crossbowman and the longbowman is the knight.
The knight is a good counter for the maceman (The crossbowman is more cost-effective).
The best counter for the grenadier and the cannon is the cavalry.
The best counter for tanks is the gunship.

The chariot is a strange unit. It is so early, that it might be your first decent unit. It allows for quick assaults early in the game before the rock-paper-scissors system is fully working (no spearman build yet).

You might value your cavalry in a pitched battle against a strong AI. If you're moving from city to city conquering, then they're quite useless.
 
zfhelve said:
i can not get how 2 get a MOD 2 work on the game >?<

Welcome to civfanatics. :band:

Uhm, short question. A bit too short maybe as your problems are a bit vague. The game has a Mods subfolder. Inside this folder there are some subfolders. Each of these subfolders is one mod. These are the mods that were in the game when it was shipped. You should add the downloaded mod to these mods. It should also consist of a folder. Maybe, it even has an install program.

For the specifics about a certain mod, you should ask questions in the main thread of that mod.

There are also modifications to the main game that aren't full mods. They contain changes to the main game and are to be used with every game you play. Typical examples include changes to the interface (advisors and such) and small rule changes that you would want in your main game.

These are to be placed in the custom assets folder. There's a quick link from the main civ4 folder to the custom assets folder.



Melhisedek said:
A few questions:

1. Just wanted to make sure I build right IIRC it was build farm on "brown" and mine on "green" back in CivIII days. Is it still the same today? What about other tiles? In general build food on food starved stuff and mines where you need hammers right?
(exceptions are specialised tiles like game/gold/cow)

I actually disagree with that simple rule for civ3. It was a simple rule that was often mentioned, but it was a bit too simple to be the optimal solution.

You want to improve your tiles in such a way that your cities grow fast until they reach the size where they get happiness/health problems. At that moment you typically don't want any growth and want to have improvements in the gold and hammer output. If the happiness and health in your empire improves, then you want to further grow your cities.
What that means for each individual city is dependent on the terrain surrounding that city.

2. Does road improve on tiles production and how much? Also when does this happen? Do you build road first or improve first?

Roads only improve the speed of ground units. Railroads increase the hammer output of mines and lumbermills by 1. Roads connect resources that have their specific terrain improvement build. If cities are connected through roads, rivers and ocean access, then they make trade routes with one another.
I build roads when I want to have access to resources, trade routes between cities or faster movement between my cities. Generally I build them quite quickly, but not the first thing in the first few turns of the game. Later, I build them everywhere.

3. I noticed Pyramid doesn't give grannaries all over the place anymore. What other wonder people rush early in the game? (I went with stonehendge no idea why)

The pyramids bonus is great in this iteration of the game. It's still the best ancient wonder, but expensive. The oracle is often used to jump to code of laws for the religion and for the courthouses. The great library for its specialists which leads to an early great scientist for an early academy in your top science city. Stonehenge is cheap and can give you a Great Prophet fast for a shrine in your holy city (if you happen to get a religion technology first). These are some of the 'tricks' that are used concerning Great Wonders.

4. IIRC in Civ3 "best" allaround goverment (or what was it called) was Democracy, is it still the same this time around or?

Think I'll leave it at that :P Will bother you with religion and civics later on

Thank you for your time!

Haven't played a lot of civ4, have you? ;)
There are no governments in this iteration of the game. There are only civics. The combination of civics defines your government. Each civic has some bonuses and you will switch between them a bit.
I have a favourite subset of civics but not everyone thinks the same about that. Democracy for instance wasn't considered the best government of civ3 according to many polls.
 
idk it just i cant use any mod i think i am puting in the wrong place: i do need 2 un zip it right?
 
Melhisedek said:
A few questions:

==1. Just wanted to make sure I build right :) IIRC it was build farm on "brown" and mine on "green" back in CivIII days. Is it still the same today? What about other tiles? In general build food on food starved stuff and mines where you need hammers right?
(exceptions are specialised tiles like game/gold/cow)==

Farming plains and mining grassland was a strategy to keep tiles from going above three of a particular resource and thus avoiding the dictatorship penalty. That penalty no longer exists, and you can't mine plains or grassland unless there's a specific resource there, so there's no modern equivalent of that strategy. The new trick is knowing when to farm and when to hamlet.


==3. I noticed Pyramid doesn't give grannaries all over the place anymore. What other wonder people rush early in the game? (I went with stonehendge no idea why)==

Along with what RJ said, Pyramids were weakened in the last patch because the civics were balanced better (cost v. benefits, especially for representation). Now the Pyramids are mostly useful, in my view, for their ability to generate the rare and powerful Great Engineer early. The Great Library is also very powerful, but the Oracle is the only one of the early Wonders (possibly the only Wonder?) that you absolutely must build yourself to get the benefit. Conquering the Pyramids or Great Library is almost as good (after you've domesticated the city) and often easier. As for stonehenge, I've never even heard it mentioned on the forums till now. If you found a lot of religions and want to mass produce great profits it might help you out, but it seems like a waste of crucial early production. Unlike in Civ3, there don't seem to be many long periods in Civ4 where your cities couldn't be building improvements(buildings).

Thanks for all the good answers on my cavalry and worker questions.
 
zfhelve said:
idk it just i cant use any mod i think i am puting in the wrong place: i do need 2 un zip it right?

Yes, you need to unzip it. In game, you then should be able to select it as one of the scenario's. But of course, only if you installed it correctly.

If done correctly, then the 'Mods' folder should contain a subfolder with the name of the mod. In that folder there should be an 'Assets' folder and that should contain similar folders as the the 'Assets' folder in the main civ 4 folder.

Not every file of the main civ4 folder should be present in that 'Assets' folder in the mod folder as the game only looks in the mod folder for the changed files. It will use the files of the main game when they aren't present in the mod folder.

This might still sound vague as it is difficult to explain such things over the internet.
 
Where or how can I create a thread?
How can I create a scenario with new civilizations?
 
Look here. That should help start you in the right direction.
"
To start a thread click on "forum tools" (below page number) ---> click on "post a new thread".

 
Oh, boy :) I got it all wrong looks like :)

First of all thanks for all of your great help Roland and A4phantom! I really appreciate it. My game is quite suffering right now as I can imagine (built warrior instead of Worker first, built Stonehenge instead of Pyramids, built first city very wrong as I didn't scout south from me so I have like row of tiles around my borders unused after my city has grown and so on) but that is ok I'm playing on easiest, learning and having a blast again :P

No I haven't played Civ4 a lot :/ After CivIII let go off me (WoW had to its work) I just couldn't play 4 more than 10-15 turns. Something felt wrong. But lately I've been craving Civ again so here I am :P

Back to questions again shall we ;)
1. After settling a new town, do you build worker or warrior/defense first?
(I should turn off darn recommended stuff on my list)

2. As you noticed Roland I haven't played Civ4 a lot :P So these Civics escape me, if I understand correctly, you get them through research and can enable them after research is done right? For a newb would it be all right to just enable them as they come, asuming they latter are better? Of course I would try to go for most income providing ones in this game.

3. Reading these boards it looks like "Great Person" is really important this time around. IIRC they were bit random in Civ3 (don't quote me on that ;) ) so how do you increase your chances of getting one this time around?

4. Should I go beeline to a single tech (like the one for chopping wood, name escapes me) or two, or should I fill row after row of tech stuff? Is there some "optimal" tech tree method?

I see that Roland have done some explaining religion up there so I'll read that and be back again.

Thank you for your time!
 
Melhisedek said:
Back to questions again shall we ;)
1. After settling a new town, do you build worker or warrior/defense first?
(I should turn off darn recommended stuff on my list)

Neither :D

The actual correct answer is: it depends. It should depend on your situation in the game. In the first city I often build a worker first. Sometimes a workboat if I see some fish close by and it's my only food resource. However, I think you're not talking about the first city. In that case, I would have sent at least 1 defensive units with the settler, so the city doesn't need another unit soon. (actually, the defensive unit leaves earlier as the settler moves faster) It is also needed to defend your settlers as they are very expensive and there are wild animals that will kill your settler if it isn't protected.

I usually build something in the city that improves the city. In the early game, that could be an obelisk for the first culture expansion and the city can grow a little while building that. Usually, a worker is not far behind the settler and it will start improving the land (maybe the worker is even ahead of the settler, building a road to the preferred settling site).

If I build a new city later in the game, then a forge or granary could be the first building. One improves productivity, the other growth.

Melhisedek said:
2. As you noticed Roland I haven't played Civ4 a lot :P So these Civics escape me, if I understand correctly, you get them through research and can enable them after research is done right? For a newb would it be all right to just enable them as they come, asuming they latter are better? Of course I would try to go for most income providing ones in this game.

The first civics aren't the best, but the later ones aren't necessarily better. It depends...;)
For instance, environmentalism is not considered to be a very useful civic by most players. There might be situation where it can be good. Most players like free market (smaller empires) or state property (big empires).

In your first game, I would just read the description of the advantages given by a civic and then try it out. Also watch the cost of a civic, you can see the cost changes before you press the revolution button.


Melhisedek said:
3. Reading these boards it looks like "Great Person" is really important this time around. IIRC they were bit random in Civ3 (don't quote me on that ;) ) so how do you increase your chances of getting one this time around?

Great Persons are created by accumulating great person points. These points are created automatically by Wonders and are also accumulated by specialist making specialists interesting. There are some things in this game that can only be done by Great Persons. There are some strategy articles on great persons which you might want to read after playing a game or two.

Melhisedek said:
4. Should I go beeline to a single tech (like the one for chopping wood, name escapes me) or two, or should I fill row after row of tech stuff? Is there some "optimal" tech tree method?

It depends...;)

It just depends what your empire needs. In war, you might beeline to a better unit. If you're suffering from huge city upkeep costs, then you might beeline to courthouses. If you want an early religion, then you might beeline to a religion enabling tech.

Note that there is a small but considerable discount on researching a technology for which you have all prerequisite technologies (you only need one prerequisite technology to start researching a tech). (there's another strategy article on technology research costs, but you only should read that after a couple of games) Also keep in mind that if you reach a technology first, then you might be able to trade it for another technology with the AI.
 
Does AI need to have Alphabet (if that is the one to enable tech trade) as well to be able to trade tech with me?
 
Melhisedek said:
Does AI need to have Alphabet (if that is the one to enable tech trade) as well to be able to trade tech with me?

Nope, just one of you needs it. That's why I like to complete Alphabet just as I'm ready let my first victim buy peace. Just don't ask why alphabet comes after writing.
 
Melhisedek "2. As you noticed Roland I haven't played Civ4 a lot :P So these Civics escape me, if I understand correctly, you get them through research and can enable them after research is done right? For a newb would it be all right to just enable them as they come, asuming they latter are better? Of course I would try to go for most income providing ones in this game. "

Examples of civic use: Theocracy and Feudalism together give you +4 exp for every unit (in cities with your state religion, which all your productive cities should have). Feudalism also gives you free maintainance on something like 18 units. So if you're building an army, switching to them is a good idea, although they're expensive. Meanwhile if you're not worried about fighting, Pacificism gives you a 100% increase in Great People production but adds to the cost of military units. If you're Spiritual then you don't suffer anarchy during revolutions and can switch back and forth easily, if not then you have to be a little more thoughtful because repeated anarchy can put you behind.
 
Melhisedek said:
Does AI need to have Alphabet (if that is the one to enable tech trade) as well to be able to trade tech with me?

Only one member of a trade needs to have Alphabet. For that reason, it's often recommended to never never never trade Alphabet. If you're the only one who can trade technologies, you will have the advantage over the AI civs until they research it on their own.

Of course, there are always exceptions. Or, as Roland is oft wont to say: "It depends...;)"
 
a4phantom said:
Just don't ask why alphabet comes after writing.
The invention of writing in RL actually does predate that of alphabet by some considerable time. In fact the earliest written languages, in the form of pictographs such as cuneiform, were in use over a thousand years before the first alphabets arose.

The inconsistency that gets me is that only one of you needs alphabet to trade techs . Surely the trading partner would have to acquire an understanding of alphabet, even if not before at least as part of the trade. This would be cool if as a price you have to pay in order to start trading the trading partner always learnt alphabet. This would remove the artificial 'only I have alphabet' feature which always felt like an exploit to me.
 
mjs0 said:
The invention of writing in RL actually does predate that of alphabet by some considerable time. In fact the earliest written languages, in the form of pictographs such as cuneiform, were in use over a thousand years before the first alphabets arose.

The inconsistency that gets me is that only one of you needs alphabet to trade techs . Surely the trading partner would have to acquire an understanding of alphabet, even if not before at least as part of the trade. This would be cool if as a price you have to pay in order to start trading the trading partner always learnt alphabet. This would remove the artificial 'only I have alphabet' feature which always felt like an exploit to me.

Fair enough. I think it should cost money and take time for a Civ to be taught a technology. In Civ a benevolent neighbor can take you from the stone age to lasers in one turn with no cost to either of you. This seems ripe for abuse in multiplayer.
 
Roland Johansen said:
Yes, you need to unzip it. In game, you then should be able to select it as one of the scenario's. But of course, only if you installed it correctly.

If done correctly, then the 'Mods' folder should contain a subfolder with the name of the mod. In that folder there should be an 'Assets' folder and that should contain similar folders as the the 'Assets' folder in the main civ 4 folder.

Not every file of the main civ4 folder should be present in that 'Assets' folder in the mod folder as the game only looks in the mod folder for the changed files. It will use the files of the main game when they aren't present in the mod folder.

This might still sound vague as it is difficult to explain such things over the internet.



grrrrrr i can installe right now :mad:
 
Hi, it's been a long time since I've been able to play Civ, and looking at this site again I find that not only is there Civ4 out but an expansion. Have the publishers announced any intention for a combination pack (Gold/GotY/etc.) with this expansion, or would that be far in the future? I'm thinking about picking up Civ4 this summer and I'm wondering if I can buy both the original and expansion together. I don't know if I'll be able to participate in the QSC or GOTM again, but I'm looking forward to getting back into Civ.
 
Back
Top Bottom