WeirdoJoker
King
Another thing ... I notice that quite often my modern armor gets blown up by infantry or marines without retreat. What's up with that?
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- Thread starter Turner
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WeirdoJoker
King
Just my luck. At least I've been winning overall, and once that stupid MPP with France ran out, I refused to renew and was able to make peace & keep it that way (so far) so I can focus on the spaceship, which is close to done.
BTW, I just got a Scientific Leader this late in the game, with only one tech & part to go. I guess I'll use the Leader to finish the ship, since there isn't much more I can do with it...
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
When it attacks and the Inf/Marines defend, do you mean? Yeah that'll be the pRNGods having their fun.
But don't forget, a fast unit will also only have the possibility to retreat if it gets redlined before its (slow) opponent does: if the defender goes to redline first, the fast-attacker will fight to the bitter end. The retreat-probability also increases with combat-experience, so you're going to lose more Regulars than if you send in Vets, and more Vets than you would Elites.
Post-Sanitation (Hospitals), Pop13+ Metropoli also give defenders +100% defence-bonus (Pop7-12 Cities give +50%), even without taking terrain into account. So, against your Armor's A=24, a D=10 unfortified Infantry in a Metro gets an effective D=20 (i.e. the Inf has a 20/[20+24] = 45% probability of winning each combat round), and even a Marine's humble D=6 gets boosted to 12 (i.e. 12/[12+24] = 33% probability of winning). And if you're attacking fortified units (+25%, IIRC), and/or up a Hill (+50%), and/or across a River (+25%), you can adjust the defender's win-probability (i.e. your unit's loss-probability) upwards accordingly.
If the AI has learned Electronics (which it probably has, by the time it has Marines), it may also have built a Civil Defence (another +50% D-bonus to units in the town) and Electronics also gives the ability to convert Workers/Slaves into Radar Towers (+25% D-bonus to all friendly units within a 2-tile radius, IIRC): I've definitely seen the PtW-AI build these, but not the C3C-AI so much (although the CCM-AI does like building 'Garrisons', which have the same function, but are available a lot earlier).
If you're talking about the ModArmor defending though, it's a whole different question: fast-units within a town, and/or fortified when they get attacked, I think won't ever retreat, and if a (retreated) redlined fast-attacker fights a second time during the same turn, I think it won't retreat then, either (certainly most times I've attacked redlined enemy fast-units, they died).
Makes sense, if you hadn't set up a prebuild for that part already...
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I think the English changed traits also. There may exist others... I certainly don't know this.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
No, England went from Comm/Exp (Vanilla) to Comm/Sea (C3C), so only one trait changed for them -- and also the Aztecs, who went from Mil/Rel to Mil/Agri. The other Vanilla-Civs all kept the same traits all the way through PtW to C3C, AFAIK.
According to the various docs I complied for my own use (and assuming I noted down the original traits correctly!), of the new PtW-Civs, the Mongols, Koreans, Celts and Ottomans stayed the same from PtW to C3C. The Spanish (Rel in both, Comm in PtW) and Vikings (Mil in both, Exp in PtW) each had their second trait changed, to Sea. Only Carthage got both traits changed: Mil/Rel to Ind/Sea.
The Celts were Militaristic/Religious and became Religious/Agricultural IIRC.
What I know for sure is that their UU's cost was changed to 50 shields which made it unusable.
WeirdoJoker
King
My ModArmor vs. their Inf/Marines. I know about the extra defenses within the cities, and did not expect easy wins there under any conditions. But most of the battles were taking place in grassland or plains.
These I did not know. Thanks. Though I have seen a couple of the phenomena, I hadn't really thought about the first of those.
Ok, that explains a lot. I was not thinking of city size as a thing.
Yeah, that's basically what was happening.
In any case, my MPP with France finally ran out. I did not renew, and was able to make peace with England so I can concentrate on the spaceship.
I didn't. My production speed is basically so fast in certain towns that I'm not concerned. A win is imminent within just a few turns. I think (I haven't played for several days due to personal obligations) I just have to finish Robotics, then I can build the last piece and I'm ready to go.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
Yes, of course they did. Thanks for reminding me.
Didn't the GSword's cost go back down to 40s by the final C3C patch though...?
(The C3C_Data.pdf I DL'd from here [still] says 40s)
Cool!
You really seem to have Warlord whipped, maybe you should reconsider levelling up to Regent...?
I also remember something about the cost getting lowered from 50s (PtW) to 40s (C3C). Don't know, whether it was in a patch or directly when moving from PtW to C3C.
I wouldn't know. What is the latest patch? I have a hard copy (3 CDs) so that would be patch 1.22. Have there been any later additions on Steam or GOG?
50 to 40 or 40 to 50… it's been a couple years since I last played vanilla civ. I seem to only play mods now. It's the same as with Wesnoth.
Frankly, Agricultural by itself is about as overpowered as Industrious or Religious. None of the three should be mixed with any of the others.
Interesting: why do you think, religious is overpowered? I always considered it to be the weakest of the 8 traits... (Except for 100K games, where it adds a little value.)
You can get lots of culture fast (for territorial expansion, gaining a cultural victory or preventing opponents from getting one), highly reduced damage from anarchy, and the cost of city improvements that give you happiness is halved, so if you send out a settler with two escorts you will have culture and happiness in 15 turns or less.
For my sort of gameplay it's definitely a tremendous boost.
For my sort of gameplay it's definitely a tremendous boost.
WeirdoJoker
King
Apart from the UU, is there any qualitative difference between playing Greece and Korea (both Commercial-Scientific)? I have had two C3C* victories with Greece (spaceship), one each at Chieftain (Tiny map) and Warlord (Standard map), while I have retired from playing the Koreans twice after being seriously defeated in a couple wars early in the game. Was it just that I was new to Warlord level, or is there something different about Korea?
For my next game I am down to considering Aztecs, France, Korea or Rome on a Tiny map, and am wondering if there is a unique way to approach playing Korea. Thinking of going for either Conquest/Domination (Aztecs or Rome) or Culture (France, Korea). Which reminds me ... is there a way to win a Conquest victory without being short-circuited by a Domination victory?
* I played and won with Greece numerous times in Vanilla, but do not believe I have kept the kind of records I keep now on my Vanilla spreadsheet.
For my next game I am down to considering Aztecs, France, Korea or Rome on a Tiny map, and am wondering if there is a unique way to approach playing Korea. Thinking of going for either Conquest/Domination (Aztecs or Rome) or Culture (France, Korea). Which reminds me ... is there a way to win a Conquest victory without being short-circuited by a Domination victory?
* I played and won with Greece numerous times in Vanilla, but do not believe I have kept the kind of records I keep now on my Vanilla spreadsheet.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
'Apart' from the UU, the 2 Civs play identically: they get the same starting techs, the same cheap buildings, the same corruption losses in any given government, the same GWs to trigger a GA...
But the UU does make a big difference. Hoplites are arguably one of the strongest defensive units in the game for their cost (6.6 shields per D-point), compared to (Korean) Spearmen (10 shields per D-point). (SMercs are more expensive than Hoplites at 7.5 s per D-point, plus the Dutch need Iron; NuMercs are resource-free like Hoplites, but also cost the same 10s per D-point as Spears — though they can also attack like Archers). So whether you tend to turtle and rely on a Hoplite as your town's last line of defense, or go out conquering with a couple of Hoplites guarding your Archer/Horse/Sword SoD, you would likely suffer fewer unit-losses as Greece than you would as Korea. Also, triggering a GA is much easier with Hoplites than Hwach'a.
When you're getting near the 66% Dom-limits (check the F8 screen), start razing/abandoning every additional AI-town as you capture it, but don't resettle that land (or allow the AI to do so).
On small-size maps, that latter may be much easier on Pan/Cont; on larger maps, possibly easier on Archi (since the AI-Settlers have to land before they can found towns; giving your already-landed forces 1 turn's grace to kill them and their defenders) — though you'll need amphibious units to capture any 1-tile island towns (so if you're not playing as the Vikings, it's simpler to demand these in peace settlements, which you then immediately break).
Also, if you want to go for Conquest, then on the 'Choose Your Civ' screen, it's probably a good idea to make sure that 'AI respawn' is turned off in the "Game rules" box...
I like playing Korea and hate playing Greece, though I agree that objectively Greece is slightly better. I think you just either got unlucky or weren't quite up to speed when you played Korea. I disagree about starting a golden age with hoplites, though. It is hard to start a GA at the appropriate time with hoplites, because they rarely win on offense. Hoplites start your GA whenever they get attacked, which is usually earlier than I want. (Note, though, that I don't worry about timing my GA, as I'm a more casual player. I'm just happy if I get one.)
If you are playing for conquest, be very wary of capturing the ToA (if you don't have education) or the Internet (if your game goes long), as you can end up with a huge jump in tiles. I went from more than 200 tiles below the domination limit to well over the limit in a recent COTM when I didn't realize I would have a problem.
If you are playing for conquest, be very wary of capturing the ToA (if you don't have education) or the Internet (if your game goes long), as you can end up with a huge jump in tiles. I went from more than 200 tiles below the domination limit to well over the limit in a recent COTM when I didn't realize I would have a problem.
WeirdoJoker
King
Probably a bit of both.
Same here. I probably actually appreciate one mid- to late-game than too early, but I don't really concern myself with it.
My games usually go that long, as my generally preferred VC is the Spaceship. My only Conquest victory in C3C was one where I just got tired of dealing with the AI Civs' antics and ended up conquering instead of whatever else I was going for that time. (I also got conquered once in an early game at Warlord.)
WeirdoJoker
King
That makes sense.
I always have that one turned off. I have started leaving all VCs turned on, though, so I have to get the UN every time (assuming the game goes that long) in order to prevent a(nother) Diplomatic defeat where the AI sandbagged me in a game I would otherwise have won.
One annoying thing about this is that you can end up with late-game barbarians. In my current histographic game, I'm killing off the AI with my modern armor armies so they can't build spaceships in the nearly 200 turns that are left while barb warriors are wandering around in the empty land, occasionally picking off a worker than got left uncovered. (I've automated a bunch of them since there is nothing for them to do but occasionally clean up pollution or reroad a pillaged tile. Once I'm done warring, I'll join them to towns, but I can't do that yet.)
