Quick Answers / 'Newbie' Questions

[tjs282]

It would appear I made a huge mistake in: 1) not prebuilding in preparation for Hoover Dam; and 2) having traded Electronics to the Iroquois in the first place. A couple turns ago, I got Shanghai down to 17 turns remaining to match Salamanca. Now, 2 turns later, I'm at 15 and Salamanca is at 11.

Ouch.

Yes, if you're aiming to do the 'usual' and research towards SciMethod while (pre)building ToE, with the intention of grabbing AtomicTheory + Electronics, then yes, you should start a Palace-prebuild for Hoovers at the same time as (or within a couple of turns of) starting on your ToE-prebuild. That way, when SciMethod comes in and/or ToE completes, you can immediately switch the Hoover-prebuild over as well — and if you've timed everything perfectly (and put your Hoover-build in a town further down your production list than your ToE-build), you can even complete Hoovers on the same turn as ToE.

But yeah, I will never (again!) trade away Electronics before I have a definite lock on a Hoover-build (Bloody Gandhi, cheating by 'prebuilding' with BattlefieldMed...).

I've tried everything I can think of to boost shield production (building a factory at this point would not improve matters) ... Mines; joined a worker to bring population to 12; no room for specialists, though it would only get turns down to 14, anyway.

I have to wonder why you apparently waited to start a Hoover-build until after getting Electronics?

And if that's what you did, and if you already knew Industrialization, and if you wanted Hoovers, why hadn't you already put a Factory in that town to allow you to build Hoovers faster, once you were able to?

Can I at least take it for granted that every tile being worked by your Hoover-city is also already railed and producing >1.5 SPT per tile (across all worked tiles)?

Would it be prudent to drop it now & build something else useful (notwithstanding a waste of shields),

If you're going to waste shields anyway, do you have any available SWs you could switch to, e.g. MilAcad, or IntelAgency, or Pentagon? If not, then a Factory (followed by a Coal- or Hydro-plant) would seem like the obvious choice(s).

I'll have Steel in a couple turns, so I'm thinking I start the palace prebuild for the UN after that. Thoughts?

Starting a prebuild on the UN directly after getting Steel seems a little premature. Assuming you've got RepParts and Refining already (or know you'll be able to trade for them), you still need 4 techs just to get out of the Industrial, and Fission makes 5.

Even if you're already comfortably doing 4T-research(?), that means the UN's still 20T down the line, so any town making 50+ spt (not at all unfeasible in a late Industrial core-town, with a Factory + some kind of power-plant) will finish building the Palace before you can switch. Sure, you could prebuild in a town getting lower SPT (e.g. because it hasn't got a Factory!) — but why would you do that?

 

[vorlon_mi]

Yup, lesson learned. What can one salvage? I agree with letting that prebuild go into a small wonder like the Military Academy, Battlefield Medicine, or the Pentagon. Often when I'm going for space, I have not prioritized those builds highly. Intelligence Agency is not usually a choice for me, since I rarely research Espionage.

Could this pile-o-shields be conserved for the UN? Probably not; even if you stopped working your tiles as hard as you are and switched to the palace, it might still complete before you could get to Fission. Also agree that putting most of this prebuild into a factory or hydroplant (with waste) is .... palatable.

 

[Takhisis]

You can still win, but it'll be tougher.

Next time, go straight for Electronics (using, of course, the Theory of Evolution). Let the AI try for industrialisation, nationalism, espionage, ironclads, etc. Never trade any of the last three techs until you cannot be overtaken, which often is until the wonders in question have been built.

That should cover it.

 

[jarred!]

Maybe this is also a reason to research Sanitation? I find that below demigod, I'll be through the Industrial times before the ai get around to researching it.
Also consider saving the completion of ToE until the start of Modern times, those techs are even more expensive. A harder move to pull off though.

 

[justanick]

Never trade any of the last three techs until you cannot be overtaken, which often is until the wonders in question have been built.

Trading when 1 turn is left is optimal. The AI still values the possible wonder into the tech, but you cannot lose the race.

Maybe this is also a reason to research Sanitation? I find that below demigod, I'll be through the Industrial times before the ai get around to researching it.
Also consider saving the completion of ToE until the start of Modern times, those techs are even more expensive. A harder move to pull off though.

While i do like hospitals and like having them before other techs in the indsutrial age, delaying ToE does not seem wise. You donnot want to delay the benefits from the Hooverdam.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

Ouch.

Yes, if you're aiming to do the 'usual' and research towards SciMethod while (pre)building ToE, with the intention of grabbing AtomicTheory + Electronics, then yes, you should start a Palace-prebuild for Hoovers at the same time as (or within a couple of turns of) starting on your ToE-prebuild. That way, when SciMethod comes in and/or ToE completes, you can immediately switch the Hoover-prebuild over as well — and if you've timed everything perfectly (and put your Hoover-build in a town further down your production list than your ToE-build), you can even complete Hoovers on the same turn as ToE.

But yeah, I will never (again!) trade away Electronics before I have a definite lock on a Hoover-build (Bloody Gandhi, cheating by 'prebuilding' with BattlefieldMed...).

I did the shot to Electronics with ToE, but then traded away Electronics for something else I wanted - won't be doing that again - which is how Iroquois got ahead of me on that.

I have to wonder why you apparently waited to start a Hoover-build until after getting Electronics?

And if that's what you did, and if you already knew Industrialization, and if you wanted Hoovers, why hadn't you already put a Factory in that town to allow you to build Hoovers faster, once you were able to?

Because I'm terrible about remembering to prebuild before it's too late to start. I need to do a couple games where I focus on that, win or lose, just to practice. This is just one reason I'm not anywhere close to ready for Emperor yet.

Can I at least take it for granted that every tile being worked by your Hoover-city is also already railed and producing >1.5 SPT per tile (across all worked tiles)?

Yes, that I was able to accomplish. I even switch squares around so I had the best-shielded squares. One square has only food, just to avoid starvation, but that's it (12-pop town).

If you're going to waste shields anyway, do you have any available SWs you could switch to, e.g. MilAcad, or IntelAgency, or Pentagon? If not, then a Factory (followed by a Coal- or Hydro-plant) would seem like the obvious choice(s).

Yes, that's my next step. I'm already building MilAcad & Heroic Epic, but might be able to speed up. I don't have Espionage yet & Pentagon is not on the table (I don't think I've ever had that).

Even if you're already comfortably doing 4T-research(?)....

Strangely, I'm not up to it yet. My last couple of games, even at this point, I've been in the 5-7T range even at 90% research (though I can usually slide it back down eventually) & can't figure out why. I make all my Specialists into Scientists (unless I can't for some reason), but it doesn't get me to 4. If I was at 4 now, it would solve a couple of issues. (I.e., right now, I just want Tanks so I can pummel the Koreans.)

 

[vorlon_mi]

IIRC, Pentagon requires having 3 armies, meaning that you earned 3 MGLs along the way. I've usually earned one MGL in the ancient age and a second in the middle ages. Getting the third MGL, especially when I'm going for space, depends on my neighbors and whether they have resources that I need. I could produce the 3rd army from the Military Academy somewhere in the industrial age, but that is tougher when I haven't yet built factories to boost production. Long story short, I am able to build the Pentagon in most games, but not every game.

 

[CKS]

One thing that you may be able to do to salvage the situation is ship a bunch of workers to Salamanca and irrigate everything in sight. The AI doesn't care if you want to improve their tiles for them, and so you can reduce the number of shields that they get each turn by giving them bonus food. Instead of speeding up your build, slow down theirs.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

One thing that you may be able to do to salvage the situation is ship a bunch of workers to Salamanca and irrigate everything in sight. The AI doesn't care if you want to improve their tiles for them, and so you can reduce the number of shields that they get each turn by giving them bonus food. Instead of speeding up your build, slow down theirs.

Brilliant! And I think I have an ROP with them, too. If so, you're right that it would salvage the situation. I'll check back in once I have a chance to play again ... still got the "drudgery" of work (but at least I won part of my trial yesterday on 2 hrs. sleep + caffeine & adrenaline).

 

[Takhisis]

One thing that you may be able to do to salvage the situation is ship a bunch of workers to Salamanca and irrigate everything in sight. The AI doesn't care if you want to improve their tiles for them, and so you can reduce the number of shields that they get each turn by giving them bonus food. Instead of speeding up your build, slow down theirs.

This is evil, so I approve.

Maybe this is also a reason to research Sanitation? I find that below demigod, I'll be through the Industrial times before the ai get around to researching it.
Also consider saving the completion of ToE until the start of Modern times, those techs are even more expensive. A harder move to pull off though.

The AI will inevitably research Sanitation.

Trading when 1 turn is left is optimal. The AI still values the possible wonder into the tech, but you cannot lose the race.

Unless one AI pips another to the construction of another wonder and thus an AI redirects its shields as a certain wonder which you're trying to build.

IIRC, Pentagon requires having 3 armies, meaning that you earned 3 MGLs along the way.

No, it's just that you need three armies. Once you have the Military Academy™, then you should be able to get around to building the Pentagon, if only because armies are one of the greatest pre-builds that there is.

 

[Samson]

Unless one AI pips another to the construction of another wonder and thus an AI redirects its shields as a certain wonder which you're trying to build.

I hesitate to contradict you, but if your city is one turn to go, and you finish it that turn, you will beat the AI even if they get a wonder cascade that turn.

 

[jarred!]

While i do like hospitals and like having them before other techs in the indsutrial age, delaying ToE does not seem wise. You donnot want to delay the benefits from the Hooverdam.

I would rather build Hoover than watch the AI build it. Sanitation first would have helped this situation: there could be a hospital in Shanghai, and sanitation could presumably be used in whatever trade sent electronics to the Iroquois, and those 4 turns would give the human more time to build factories before pre-building ToE and Hoover

The AI will inevitably research Sanitation.

Yes, I mention this as well!

I find that below demigod, I'll be through the Industrial times before the ai get around to researching it.

 

[Takhisis]

I hesitate to contradict you, but if your city is one turn to go, and you finish it that turn, you will beat the AI even if they get a wonder cascade that turn.

Hmmm. Maybe I am just sore by the recent (i.e. yesterday) experience of the AI having pipped me to Newton's University. Since that happened because I was also building Magellan's Voyage and JS Bach's Cathedral and Smith's Trading Co. then 1/4 isn't that bad -I usually have to choose which of the 4 to build.
Perhaps it was that the AI in question has long been an opponent and has a large enough land surface to have developed the Theory of Gravity tech on its own (I wasn't trading it to anybody) and transferred shields overnight or something. Since nobody has Espionage I cannot check other than by maybe looking in the .sav file, and even I am not *that* keen.

 

[tjs282]

Maybe I am just sore by the recent (i.e. yesterday) experience of the AI having pipped me to Newton's University.

Possibly that AI was actually nearly finished building an SW (e.g. MilAcad?) when it got Gravity Theory? Although the AI doesn't deliberately prebuild, it will switch Wonder-builds if something shinier becomes available (hence my rant above, about Gandhi).

But justanick and Samson are correct that if you are only 1 (inter)turn away from finishing a Wonder, then you will definitely get it, even if you sell the AI that Wonder-tech on that turn — because your cities' production will be calculated before any of the AI-Civs' during the interturn.

Since nobody has Espionage I cannot check other than by maybe looking in the .sav file, and even I am not *that* keen.

Did you mean actually checking the bit-flags — or just reloading an earlier .sav, and then spending some gold to see what they were building before they switched to Newtons? Otherwise I'm a bit puzzled why you mentioned Espionage — unless you're at war with the Newton-stealing Civ, so can't just use your Embassy?

 

[Lanzelot]

Brilliant! And I think I have an ROP with them, too. If so, you're right that it would salvage the situation.

Another thing to check: if you happen to have a government tech (e.g. Communism), which they don't know yet, gift it to them! Chances are high that they will revolt and lose a couple of turns in anarchy...

 

[justanick]

Is starting a world war an option? Declare war on your opponent and form alliances with every other remaining tribe against your opponent. Make war, not hydroelectric dams.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

Another thing to check: if you happen to have a government tech (e.g. Communism), which they don't know yet, gift it to them! Chances are high that they will revolt and lose a couple of turns in anarchy...

I wish. That would be perfect.

Is starting a world war an option? Declare war on your opponent and form alliances with every other remaining tribe against your opponent. Make war, not hydroelectric dams.

War might be my only option, as I could then pillage the mines. I checked & I can only convert one mine to irrigation. All the other squares are hills, mountains or have their own shields (i.e., one square has furs). Right now, we have a world war of everybody against Korea, and Iroquois is my main competitor, so I'd have to see ... might not get an alliance with India, as I would need (or want, at least).

 

[Takhisis]

Possibly that AI was actually nearly finished building an SW (e.g. MilAcad?) when it got Gravity Theory? Although the AI doesn't deliberately prebuild, it will switch Wonder-builds if something shinier becomes available (hence my rant above, about Gandhi).

But justanick and Samson are correct that if you are only 1 (inter)turn away from finishing a Wonder, then you will definitely get it, even if you sell the AI that Wonder-tech on that turn — because your cities' production will be calculated before any of the AI-Civs' during the interturn.

Yes, I worked it out later (once the storm came and temperature dropped from 37 ºC to something that allowed my neurons to work) that probably the AI had already converted its shields from something the turn before.

Seeing how things are turning out, I really should switched them around and ensured that Newton's was built and left Shakespeare's Theatre as the riskier one. It costs a bit more and also it gets me pollution; I don't need the culture for a cultural victory which I cannot get anyway and there's not enough terrain for supporting more than 14 or so popheads anyway.

Did you mean actually checking the bit-flags — or just reloading an earlier .sav, and then spending some gold to see what they were building before they switched to Newtons? Otherwise I'm a bit puzzled why you mentioned Espionage — unless you're at war with the Newton-stealing Civ, so can't just use your Embassy?

Checking the bit-flags.

And yes, I was at war with the damned Egyptians, and nobody had Espionage at the time, so stealing the tech couldn't have happened.

 

[Takhisis]

New game! Some cascading wonder events are clearly afoot, so what would CFC-Civ3 choose?
I am one turn away from completing Magellan's Voyage and one of JS Bach's Cathedral or Smith's Trading Company.

 

[Samson]

New game! Some cascading wonder events are clearly afoot, so what would CFC-Civ3 choose?
I am one turn away from completing Magellan's Voyage and one of JS Bach's Cathedral or Smith's Trading Company.

Without thinking very hard, I would go with JS Bach's Cathedral.