R.E.D. World War II development thread

[PrinzMyshkin]

I am sorry, if this has been covered before.

- Trying to play as Greece, and I have noticed Greek infantry does not receive its trait related bonus.
- I am having a hard time to see what is the advantage of howitzers over field guns.
- I have not managed to turn AA guns into a useful unit. Even more when a fighter intercepts a bomber, the city takes almost full damage and the AA, which was stationed in the city, does not fire.

Well done on your efforts, your scenario is very good!

 

[ilshur]

- I am having a hard time to see what is the advantage of howitzers over field guns.

Im not sure how extensively you've played, but try playing Germany vs Russia or Russia vs Germany, and it becomes obvious. Field guns stacked with infantry or armor attacking other armor deal alot of damage. Field guns fortified with infantry deal tremendous defensive damage to attacking armor. Howitzers deal a lot of damage to cities and other infantry, particularly stacked with Infantyr. Howitzers stacked with armor attacking cities can be quite effective at properly 'blitzing.'

- I have not managed to turn AA guns into a useful unit. Even more when a fighter intercepts a bomber, the city takes almost full damage and the AA, which was stationed in the city, does not fire.

You aren't far off the mark here, but as best i can tell, the AA gun must be the _ONLY_ land unit (airpower doesn't count) in that city, so that it is the one that is 'garrisoned'.

I would greatly prefer to have AA guns have an interception radius of 2 (or 1, depending on your definition), to include not just the Tile that it is on, but also the 6 immediate tiles next to it (so that it could be stationed immediately adjacent to a city and still intercept attacking planes directed at that city).

Try ensuring that only the AA gun is in the city, (no other infantry armor or wahtever) and report back. Furthermore, try at least once turning quick combat off, and try making sure that only the AA gun is free to incept (as opposed to leaving fighters to also intercept). Im not 100% sure, but fighters that deal more damage to airsweeping fighters or light bombers might intercept earlier than the AA gun.

Goodluck.

 

[Gwynin]

I use AA guns to defend the cities close to the UK, since they like to bomb away there like there is no tomorrow.

In the field I at best bring 1 AA gun to each unit group, and use it to defend the lowest hp unit since the AI tends to bomb those first.

 

[Gedemon]

I am sorry, if this has been covered before.

- Trying to play as Greece, and I have noticed Greek infantry does not receive its trait related bonus.
- I am having a hard time to see what is the advantage of howitzers over field guns.
- I have not managed to turn AA guns into a useful unit. Even more when a fighter intercepts a bomber, the city takes almost full damage and the AA, which was stationed in the city, does not fire.

Well done on your efforts, your scenario is very good!

UA are not coded for all civs yet.

About AA Guns, only one unit can intercept another. If the fighter has done it, the AA won't do.

Lowering the damage dealt by an aircraft that has been intercepted is in the to do list.

I use AA guns to defend the cities close to the UK, since they like to bomb away there like there is no tomorrow.

In the field I at best bring 1 AA gun to each unit group, and use it to defend the lowest hp unit since the AI tends to bomb those first.

Yes, AA Guns have saved some of my badly damaged armors more than once, they are already "must have" units if you don't have a clear aerial superiority, that's why I don't plan to buff them ATM.


Edit for some precision:

when two units are stacked, the "best defender" is selected when another player attack. The health level is also a factor, but generally when a plot defended by a tank and a AA-gun is attacked by an infantry, the tank will defend, when it's an aircraft, the AA-gun will defend (that's not counted as an interception)

If the AA-gun health is low, it may be the tank that will be attacked by an aircraft, in that case if the AA-Gun still has some interceptions left, it will intercept the aircraft attacking the tank (supposing there are no fighter left covering that plot).

Promotions are planed to give a probability to the attacking unit to go at the worst defender on a plot

 

[PrinzMyshkin]

Can we have ETA about when we can get this buffed Greek infantry?

Perhaps, I was really unlucky or what but my field guns did far more damage than my howitzer vs. infantry. I will study it more carefully.

AA guns are not doing their job. I would say either consider expanding their range, or give them some AA capability. A good example here is the 88" gun.

The economy tree is dumbed down at the moment. Some buildings are just way too expensive. The way I play as Greece, is build as much as I can, and stop production 1 turn before the end. When I need some specific building (e.g. broadcast tower) I go back and finish it up.

I am not sure, if this is the intended use. Have you considered allowing markets and a national wonder project like the national treasury?

Greek units are a bit far off at the moment, I would consider adding an elite infantry unit, which showed action in WW2. "Orino Peziko" (Mountain Infantry), also you could add some research projects, so Greeks also get some decent allied units in late game, which were already developed, like for example the super-marine Spitfire model (source: http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/spitfires-in-greece.html), or the Sherman M4 (Thousands were also distributed to the Allies, including the British Commonwealth and the Soviet Union, via lend-lease. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman)

 

[Gedemon]

Can we have ETA about when we can get this buffed Greek infantry?

Maybe during the balance stage of the new version, for which I have absolutly no ETA.

Making the mod working again for all versions after BNW release will be the priority, then I'll switch the development to BNW only - that will take some time - then I'll try to fix the "convoy" and "fall of..." bugs if they are sill existing at that point, then I'll continue the development of the new version.

AA guns are not doing their job. I would say either consider expanding their range, or give them some AA capability. A good example here is the 88" gun.

You mean AT capability ? they already got +100% against armor.

The economy tree is dumbed down at the moment. Some buildings are just way too expensive. The way I play as Greece, is build as much as I can, and stop production 1 turn before the end. When I need some specific building (e.g. broadcast tower) I go back and finish it up.

I am not sure, if this is the intended use. Have you considered allowing markets and a national wonder project like the national treasury?

The intended use is to make buildings only in some selected cities. All the others should produce reinforcement or wealth (the wealth process is buffed).

Greek units are a bit far off at the moment, I would consider adding an elite infantry unit, which showed action in WW2. "Orino Peziko" (Mountain Infantry), also you could add some research projects, so Greeks also get some decent allied units in late game, which were already developed, like for example the super-marine Spitfire model (source: http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/spitfires-in-greece.html), or the Sherman M4 (Thousands were also distributed to the Allies, including the British Commonwealth and the Soviet Union, via lend-lease. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman)

New research projects are planned, but new unit's skins will be needed.

 

[thecivinator58]

I still feel Italian armor is grossly mis-represented in the game. First off, on the Europe 1939 map, Italy starts out with several M11-39s and L6-40s. This is not realistic. As of 1940, Italy had 1,447 tanks. Of these, only 100 were M11-39s, and only 27 were L6-40s. The rest were either Fiat 3000s, L3/33s, or L3/35s. So I would put those units as high priority. Also, on the 1942 earth map, both the M15/42 and P26/40 are designed. This is completely wrong, both tanks were just entering production in mid 1943. Even giving the Italians the M14/41 already designed would be a stretch.

 

[Gedemon]

How would you define the tankettes use in terms of gameplay/stats ?

 

[thecivinator58]

Tankettes are basically minature tanks, with 1 or 2 crew, very thin armor, and machine gun armament. (OK, I know, some L3/35s had 20mm guns, but only a few) So they should have a significant penalty vs tanks, like 30%-40%, and a bonus vs infantry, like 15%-25%. Given the small size and few crew, they would also be very cheap to make and reenforce.

 

[Gedemon]

That's too close of the actual light tanks (-25% vs armor, +25% vs infantry), if the tankette are not in, it's because in my early tests, something with those stats and a lesser combat strength than a light tank can be one-shooted vs a buffed normal tank, and I don't want that.

Now with the support/normal units stacking, they can really be used as infantry light support, but that would not solve your issue (too many "normal" tank units for Italy, and too early)

 

[thecivinator58]

The thing about tankettes, they can be war winners vs pure infantry, but tanks have a habit of doing all kinds of lovely things to them. So we may need to hit tank promotions with the nerf bat, because as you said, a tank with blitz and some shock promotions can kill 1 or maybe even 2 infantry units in 1 turn. Which might be just a tad OP.

 

[Gedemon]

I totally agree on that, the promotions nerf is already planned during the beta of the next version. Could be a good time to add the tankette then, we'll see.

 

[Skibbi]

The thing about tankettes, they can be war winners vs pure infantry, but tanks have a habit of doing all kinds of lovely things to them. So we may need to hit tank promotions with the nerf bat, because as you said, a tank with blitz and some shock promotions can kill 1 or maybe even 2 infantry units in 1 turn. Which might be just a tad OP.

Personally, I don't see how tanks could get the rough terrain defences, tanks are made for open terrain.

That's too close of the actual light tanks (-25% vs armor, +25% vs infantry), if the tankette are not in, it's because in my early tests, something with those stats and a lesser combat strength than a light tank can be one-shooted vs a buffed normal tank, and I don't want that.

Now with the support/normal units stacking, they can really be used as infantry light support, but that would not solve your issue (too many "normal" tank units for Italy, and too early)

My M3 Grant got one-shotted with a Panzer III Ausf f

 

[ilshur]

What if diplomacy was modified to account for greater (maximum level, even) Wonder Envy?

Within the civ5 vanilla engine, there is a tremendous amount of gravity given toward the "They covet our wonders" facet of diplomacy. The 'in awe of our wonders' is a related issue, but seems to be less malevolent.


Specifically, making the Italians covetous of The Pyramids, Germany covetous of the Eiffel Tower, The Kremlin, and Big Ben, and basically everyone else covetous of The Brandenburg Gate would ensure that the attacking armies advance in those directions?


It'd certianly help in initial declarations and guiding the advance of AI vs AI

 

[bradley101]

Just an idea but what is say a city that was surronded when in fell if there were aircraft present that the attacker world be capture them all be it damaged. So like in ww2 one could donate the aircraft to friendly citystates. So through doing that if you were playing as Germany you could strengthen weaker allies like Hungry or Romania with captured French aircraft.

Also I have been thinking about convey escorts. Having a unit that can stack with a convry that is cheaper than a destroyer has a 35% penalty against other surface units but a 75-100% aganist subs and aircraft plus a small bonus for stacking with a convey.

Patrol planes and Escort Carriers. Patrol planes could operate from a city or carrier with the airsweep replaced with a Patrol that wold have a radius of say 3-5 tiles with a 35-50% chance of spotting any subs in the area. The escort carriers idea world be a smaller cheaper aircraft carrier with 1 or 2 air units capacity.

Just some ideas I have no idea about modding and how posable these ideas are.

 

[thecivinator58]

2 things that are bugging me:

1. I would like to say that light tanks in general are mis-represented. Yes, at first, they were designed for infantry support, but that role slowly swiched to scouting, which is not recognized in game. I would divide up light tanks like this:
Old light tanks(AMC-35, Vickers MKE Type A, Panzer I, could add tankettes in here as well)
Nerf bonus vs infantry to 20%
Light tanks(T-26, Panzer II, Panzer 35(t), Tetrach, L6-40, M3 Stuart)
Buff all to 44
Nerf bonus vs infantry to 20%
Extend view range by 1 tiles
Scout tanks(M5 Stuart, Panzer II Ausf L)
Nerf bonus vs infantry to 15%
Extend view range by 2 tiles.
Battle light tanks (T-70, Valentine, Panzer 38(t))
Like the light tank class, but with 50, and only -15% vs tanks
Infantry tanks: (H35, R-35)
44
3
+35% vs infantry
-30% vs tanks
(Note, Matilda I would fit in this class, but would have like -35% vs tanks)
Upgraded infantry tanks(R-40, H39, Matilda II?)
50
3
+35% vs infantry
-25% vs tanks
(Matilda II would probably not have the penalty vs tanks)
Also, historically the Luchs didn't replace the older Panzer IIs, and both types soldiered on until the end of the war.

2. Is there any ETA on infantry support vehicles, like the StuG III and SU-76? Because the StuG was Germany's most produced AFV, and the SU-76 was the Soviet Union's second most produced AFV, after the T-34. So they are kind of historically significant.

 

[MrManilow]

I would like to say that light tanks in general are mis-represented. Yes, at first, they were designed for infantry support, but that role slowly swiched to scouting, which is not recognized in game.

I've got to agree, light tanks are used way too much in the game. They're pretty much useless in front line combat, so scouting would be a good use for them, like giving them the sentry bonus when built. Also I read that some light tanks were used with paratroopers, so maybe something to investigate.

Also kind of a sidebar, but I was reading your list of tanks and I saw that the Valentine and Matilda I were still classed as light tanks in game. I just wanted to say that these tanks were part of the infantry tank line of British tanks, definitely NOT light tanks.

Basically as I read it the British infantry tanks went: Matilda I --> Matilda II(which needs to be nerfed) --> A10 Valentine --> Churchill. Though the Churchill could be more classed as a heavy tank.

 

[Gedemon]

That's already changed, there is an infantry tank line in the v.38 version since a few months.

But still, nobody has come with any suggestion about the gameplay usage of an infantry tank, so the line is here, but the development stalled until I find something to do with them.

 

[Gwynin]

To be honest I feel that a infantry support tank kinda falls into the place of artillery, a mobile and damage resistant but close quarters artillery piece with bonus vs infantry (nothing else).

And to a point that is allready done by the current artillery pieces we have, so dunno if they really are that needed in terms of gameplay.

 

[MrManilow]

And to a point that is allready done by the current artillery pieces we have, so dunno if they really are that needed in terms of gameplay.

Yeah I've can agree with that. Also I just don't like the idea of putting tanks as a stackable unit. I mean, if we start with infantry tanks, where do we end?

But still, nobody has come with any suggestion about the gameplay usage of an infantry tank, so the line is here, but the development stalled until I find something to do with them.

Well I suppose while cruiser tanks were the highly mobile force that could flank and surround the enemy the infantry tanks was the slow, frontline tank that attacked the enemy from the front.

So I suppose the first obvious thing would be a movement of two or three, and then maybe a bonus or penalty that reflected its use.

Maybe a bonus against fortified units? Or maybe a bonus that was the opposite of the cruiser tanks, like a bonus for defending and a penalty for attacking? Or maybe the ability to fortify like infantry units?

Personally I would go for the bonus for defending and penalty for attacking, just because it sounds like it would have good synergy with the cruiser tank.