RA: The biggest Bug never fixed!!!

[Hail]

RA
+40-60% to cost and increases by 20% per signed RA. lasts 30 turns; cancelled if DoWed by the other signee before expiration

GS
triggers a scientific revolution that increases output by 100% for 12 turns

PT
increases the duration of a scientific revolution by 50% (effect similar to the Chichen Itza)

Rationalism opener
increases the RA's increase to by 50%. e.g. with the opener, each RA will increase by 30% while it is active

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Better would be

RA gives you 4% of (your science + your partner's science) for 30 turns

Porcelain Tower adds 2%, Rationalism adds 2%

Great Scientist output capped at 2000 + 10* science of city they are popped in

 

[Hail]

RA gives you 4% of (your science + your partner's science) for 30 turns

Porcelain Tower adds 2%, Rationalism adds 2%

yeah, that is better

Great Scientist output capped at 2000 + 10* science of city they are popped in

nice. can be gamed though(by farming one city and buying all the science buildings in it). it's a lot better than what is now though

maybe change science of city they are popped in to average science per city?
on second thought, base dominates 10 * science. probably it is a good idea to lower the base and increase the science in city coefficient

 

[Camikaze]

That suggestion seems pretty good, Krikkitone. I don't know how the exact numbers match up, but the idea of having research gained dependent on the scientific output of both you and your partner means that there is still that element of 'trust' involved. One issue might be that you would have an incentive to sign RAs with the most technologically advanced civs which, whilst making complete sense, could widen the gap between most and least advanced, and be a bit unbalancing. On the other hand, at least those less advanced would get more out their deals than more advanced civs.

 

[qemist]

Completely disagree there:

1. RA is designed to be a diplomatic mechanism to make real relations with other civ. It decreases chances what you'll be attacked by the Civ you're trading with, especially since last patch decreased backstab bias. So from this point of view, making RA with friends only is a bad idea - the RA will stop working as diplomatic solution.

I don't believe it works that way at all. In fact AIs frequently DoW just after making an RA or just before it matures. Some suspect this is a strategy to drain the player's gold, but I think it is just chaotic logic.

A better mechanism would be for the RA to provide a fixed number of beakers. The number of beakers required for late game techs could then be somewhat reduced. It would be more plausible too if RAs could only be between parties in the same era.

An alternative would be tech trading.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I don't believe it works that way at all. In fact AIs frequently DoW just after making an RA or just before it matures. Some suspect this is a strategy to drain the player's gold, but I think it is just chaotic logic.

You see, AI decisions are based on concept of weights. When they decide if they want RA to be signed, they either:
1. Weight the probability of going to war and sign it if the chances are not that high.
2. Sign it as part of backstab plan.

During the game, they could chack possibilities of war and RA is a modifier to not go into it, but there are a lot of other things, which could outweight the RA completely. So, it's not chaotic, you just need to look at all things affecting diplomacy.

The main problem here is lack of ingame information about AI behavior. Plus the weight system lacks strategy planning.

 

[stealth82]

1. RAs can be signed only with players belonging to your same era.
2. You can still look for new techs already discovered by more advanced Civs and choose which one to get from them (still a money/30turn deal). The other Civ just gets the money. If YOU are leading YOU get the money. Techs become sort of profitable luxuries.
3. No more RAs past Apollo Program. Just hard beakers.

 

[qemist]

1. RAs can be signed only with players belonging to your same era.
2. You can still look for new techs already discovered by more advanced Civs and choose which one to get from them (still a money/30turn deal). The other Civ just gets the money. If YOU are leading YOU get the money. Techs become sort of profitable luxuries.
3. No more RAs past Apollo Program. Just hard beakers.

1 and 2 are good ideas. Not sure exactly what 3 means. RAs stop for whom (one player or everyone) when someone (that player or anyone) builds the Apollo wonder (or researches Rocketry)? Do current deals get cancelled?

 

[stealth82]

Not sure exactly what 3 means. RAs stop for whom (one player or everyone) when someone (that player or anyone) builds the Apollo wonder (or researches Rocketry)? Do current deals get cancelled?

I would say as soon as you discover Rocketry. If by then there were still some RAs in place they would only benefit you by reducing the cost of the technology you are currently researching (33% or 50%), but no more free technologies. That applies to GSs too. They just help you speed up the process from then on (maybe providing from 33% to 50% the beakers you need for your current researched tech).

 

[qemist]

I would say as soon as you discover Rocketry. If by then there were still some RAs in place they would only benefit you by reducing the cost of the technology you are currently researching (33% or 50%), but no more free technologies. That applies to GSs too. They just help you speed up the process from then on (maybe providing from 33% to 50% the beakers you need for your current researched tech).

Ok, I don't like it. People will just avoid rocketry as long as poss. Also RAs don't provide free techs anymore now, they provide some variable amount of beakers (which may be more or less than required for the tech you are currently researching). So that aspect is sort of done already.

As I see it, the problem, if there is one, is that a small weak civ can keep up technologically by manipulation of the RA system. I'm not sure how bad that is because it does give players less reason to reroll when they get off to a bad start.

 

[stealth82]

Ok, I don't like it. People will just avoid rocketry as long as poss.

This could be true. But for how long can you hold back on rocketry if your're going for a science victory? You need hard hammers for building both the program and the spaceship parts. The alternative could be that of moving the Apollo program elsewhere, I don't know where though.

Also RAs don't provide free techs anymore now, they provide some variable amount of beakers (which may be more or less than required for the tech you are currently researching). So that aspect is sort of done already.

Sorry I didn't know that. Since when is that so? I'm playing Civ on a Mac.

As I see it, the problem, if there is one, is that a small weak civ can keep up technologically by manipulation of the RA system.

True, but that small weak civ ought to possess a strong economy though. If it doesn't, how can it buy techs? Also, each tech should have a variable price based on the number of turns the Civ should spend in reserching it by itself.

I'm not sure how bad that is because it does give players less reason to reroll when they get off to a bad start.

That is one of the reasons why I like that possible mechanic. On the other hand, mindlessly selling your techs could expose you to new feasible threats coming from the now catching up Civs you made deals with. Having that in mind, you might be not so willing to sell your techs to others and viceversa. As a further restriction only friend civs could think of that (DoFs should be reworked a bit though, too easy to break them).

 

[qemist]

This could be true. But for how long can you hold back on rocketry if your're going for a science victory? You need hard hammers for building both the program and the spaceship parts.

They'd go for some other victory. I think it is too game distorting and unrealistic. Actually as technology has progressed international scientific cooperation has increased, not decreased. The idea of ancient Egypt and China doing a deal to research the sword is pretty ludicrous, but America and Japan doing joint research on fusion is not.

I'm not terribly up with patch nos. and such, but the current system is that you get a number of beakers which is a fraction of the median cost of your techs currently available to research.

True, but that small weak civ ought to possess a strong economy though. If it doesn't, how can it buy techs? Also, each tech should have a variable price based on the number of turns the Civ should spend in reserching it by itself.

I think you misinterpreted me. I was referring to the alleged problems with the current system.

 

[stealth_nsk]

1. RAs can be signed only with players belonging to your same era.

First, it will punish losers more than runaway civs. Second, it will limit using RA for diplomacy.

2. You can still look for new techs already discovered by more advanced Civs and choose which one to get from them (still a money/30turn deal). The other Civ just gets the money. If YOU are leading YOU get the money. Techs become sort of profitable luxuries.

This would work, but it adds tech race component to the game, the thing which Civ 5 was able to successfully avoid. Civ 4 was build around the concept of researching tech first, Civ 5 is completely different story.

3. No more RAs past Apollo Program. Just hard beakers.

Again, this would punish losers more. But more important, the only effect is what Apollo Program will be build only after the desired techs are discovered.

 

[stealth82]

First, it will punish losers more than runaway civs.

Well, I think, not necessarily. If there's only one Civ ahead it will be slowed down by not being able to sign any other RAs until others catch up, in that case it could just sell its techs - and now that I'm thinking it shouldn't also sell the same tech to other Civs for the time its current RA is on. If more Civs are ahead they are already running away by means of multiple RAs signed with weaker Civs as well. The formers get even more powerful tech, the latters keep on lagging behind. I don't see how the latters could be better favorited now than with this new ipothesis.

Second, it will limit using RA for diplomacy.

Sorry I'm thinking of two ways for interpreting your comment:

1. That is the other reason why I could like this new mechanic more. I think RAs are too overpowered; even though I just got to know by means of qemist that they don't provide free techs anymore, just beakers.

2. How do RAs help diplomacy?

This would work, but it adds tech race component to the game, the thing which Civ 5 was able to successfully avoid. Civ 4 was build around the concept of researching tech first, Civ 5 is completely different story.

I see. Unfortunately the first Civ game I ever played was Civ Revolution. I bought Civ 5 just a month ago so I'm not a long time expert here. Nevertheless what I did notice, and bothers me the more is this thing of RAs. Maybe when the Mac version will catch up I might feel better than I actually do.

Again, this would punish losers more. But more important, the only effect is what Apollo Program will be build only after the desired techs are discovered.

Yeah, I see the flaw in my thinking. And as qemist has already pointed out others at that point could choose to go for easier victories (diplomatic for example).

 

[KrikkitTwo]

That suggestion seems pretty good, Krikkitone. I don't know how the exact numbers match up, but the idea of having research gained dependent on the scientific output of both you and your partner means that there is still that element of 'trust' involved. One issue might be that you would have an incentive to sign RAs with the most technologically advanced civs which, whilst making complete sense, could widen the gap between most and least advanced, and be a bit unbalancing. On the other hand, at least those less advanced would get more out their deals than more advanced civs.

Another option is you get ~8% of your Opponent's Research (signing an RA with a tiny city gets you almost nothing, but with a big developed civ gets you a lot)

 

[Artingel78]

Research Agreements are most useful thing in the howl game, if you have Porcelian tower and Rationalism you can have massive tech boost from RAs.
I have signed a solid number of RAs in my victory with Korea and they very help me in the game but i don't have enough friends and to sign more RAs but i still have Mechanized Infantry in turn 253. so i attack with Mechanized Infantry on Longswords and Knights and when i attacking France i have bring 18 Damage to Troyes and 13 to Paris.
I think the RAs should be fixed because if they keep them like this all of us will have some more discoveries about RAs and when we can use them with full power best players will be unstapobble.
I think they should fix them now, Once and for all !!!

 

[qemist]

First, it will punish losers more than runaway civs.

I don't see that. It would handicap civs that either got ahead of the pack (era-wise) or fell behind. I don't have a problem with that.

Second, it will limit using RA for diplomacy.

RA for diplomacy doesn't work (not beyond any other trade, anyway). I have yet to encounter anyone but you who believes in it.

 

[Louis XXIV]

It's been a deterrence for me. I've actually tested it. They're definitely more likely to avoid war if you have a research agreement active.

 

[00konichiwa00]

I don't believe anyone can finish the game within 200 turns on deity level without cheating

 

[stealth_nsk]

Well, I think, not necessarily. If there's only one Civ ahead it will be slowed down by not being able to sign any other RAs until others catch up, in that case it could just sell its techs - and now that I'm thinking it shouldn't also sell the same tech to other Civs for the time its current RA is on. If more Civs are ahead they are already running away by means of multiple RAs signed with weaker Civs as well. The formers get even more powerful tech, the latters keep on lagging behind. I don't see how the latters could be better favorited now than with this new ipothesis.

I don't see that. It would handicap civs that either got ahead of the pack (era-wise) or fell behind. I don't have a problem with that.

I mean, let's imagine there are few civs which are behind others in tech. They could only sign RA with each other, so if they aren't numerous, they become more and more behind others.

On the other hand, if there's one leading civ, the civ could research some techs on its own, wait for other civs to reach the same era, sign RA with them and on RA completion, rocket jump to the next era again, keeping constant leadership.

How do RAs help diplomacy?

RA for diplomacy doesn't work (not beyond any other trade, anyway). I have yet to encounter anyone but you who believes in it.

Exactly, it's not more than other trade, it's exactly the same. You can't prevent yourself from being attacking using RA only, but it's the part of strategy, including resource trade, DoF, keeping borders guarded, etc.