Race of the Carthagranian Empire?

[Drewcifer]

Modern Lebanese are half french

In most cases when a people are conquered it is only the elite that changes.

There was a show on PBS a few years ago (Nova?) on the Phonecians and Carthaginians. Apparently the people of Lebanon share the same genetic markers as some populations on the Lybian coast. Their hypothesis was that the modern Lebanese and those populations in Lybia were descendents of the Phonecians.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

There was a lot of interbreeding between the Phoenician colonists and the native Lybians and Numidians (ie. Berbers). I think the Carthaginians would have been physically indistinguishable from the Arabs and Berbers who live in north africa today, although their way of life was definitely more Bevantine than North African. They wouldn't have looked particularly different from the ancient Italians or Greeks either except slightly more tanned. Carthaginians would have varied somewhat from place to place across their empire through interbreeding with the locals, but the Tunisian core of the empire would be as above.

It should be pointed out that Hannibal's mother was an Iberian princess, who would have been a Celt. He probably looked more "European" than the Romans did but he was not a typical Carthaginian.

 

[Arwon]

I'm not sure the ancient Iberians were all Celts, actually. Remember, the Basques' ancestors were there before the Celts and it's widely argued that there were other people speaking related languages in the rest of Iberia who got assimilated culturally by the Celts, Greeks, Phoenicians, Romans, Goths, Arabs, etc. Genetically speaking, there's some evidence that populations all through Iberia and in the British have some genetic relation to the Basques, which would make all those populations genetic remnants of the pre-Celtic inhabitants of Europe, with the Basques somewhat bizarrely managing to resist at least a half dozen waves of assimilation enough to retain the old language.

You're still right he woulda looked more "European" though.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think the Carthaginians would have been physically indistinguishable from the Arabs and Berbers who live in north africa today...

IIRC, the Berbers are distinguishable from Arabs, generally having more Caucasian features and sometimes even paler skin or typically Caucasian hair coluring (red, blone, etc). They tend to look more like Southern Europeans than they do like Arabs.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

I've never actually seen a berber or an arab so I wouldn't really know.

 

[TheLastOne36]

We only know that the Phoenician language was Semitic.

Phoenicians tend to be associated as the descendants of the invading "sea peoples" of the Mediterranean. Read this All the hypotheses link to the sea people as being Greek or Italian or Anatolian. If the Phoenicians are descendant from the sea people, then they would've looked like Greeks, or Romans, and thus the Carthaginians would've been Greek or Roman.

Of course only the people of the city Carthage were true Carthaginians. The rest, in particular there army were Greek, Celtic, German, Roman, Berber, Egyptian and Garamantian(is it Garamantian or Garamantian?).

 

[cybrxkhan]

most likely the Phoenicians were not the "purest" of whites or blacks. at least i think we all can agree on that.

 

[Hasdrubal Barca]

They were white meditterenean, there is also very references in roman historians that carthaginian soldiers and people were taller then most roman. Despite the colonies in north africa they did not mingle that much with the local people, one of the reasons of their downfall unlike the romans.

 

[holiday_hawk]

Punic (I think) means Phoenician in Latin.

My history teacher would say you are correct, and i would say that the rulers of Carthage were of Phoenician decent so they would be white and the average Carthaginian would be black since they just happened to be where the Phoenicians colonized there lands and become there "subjects" i guess you could say

 

[Traitorfish]

My history teacher would say you are correct, and i would say that the rulers of Carthage were of Phoenician decent so they would be white and the average Carthaginian would be black since they just happened to be where the Phoenicians colonized there lands and become there "subjects" i guess you could say

Native North Africans are not "black", they are typically Caucasian, appearing far closer to Southern Europeans than to sub-Saharans. These days they tend to look a bit more Arabic, because, like much of the Islamic world, they interbred with the Arabic invaders during the Islamic conquests, but they are still distinct from the black populations of Africa.

This Ancient Egyptian image shows how the Egyptians, at least, identified the ethnicities of Africa.

Spoiler :

The paleness of the Lybians, as well as the Syriac, is no doubt exagerated in contrast to the Egyptian, but at least shows a clear distinction from the black Nubian (albeit a similarly exagerated representation). This seems to indicate that the pre-Phoenecian natives of the North African coast were likely to be Caucasian, as many of their Berber descendants are today.

 

[holiday_hawk]

Native North Africans are not "black", they are typically Caucasian, appearing far closer to Southern Europeans than to sub-Saharans. These days they tend to look a bit more Arabic, because, like much of the Islamic world, they interbred with the Arabic invaders during the Islamic conquests, but they are still distinct from the black populations of Africa.

This Ancient Egyptian image shows how the Egyptians, at least, identified the ethnicities of Africa.

Spoiler :

The paleness of the Lybians, as well as the Syriac, is no doubt exagerated in contrast to the Egyptian, but at least shows a clear distinction from the black Nubian (albeit a similarly exagerated representation). This seems to indicate that the pre-Phoenecian natives of the North African coast were likely to be Caucasian, as many of their Berber descendants are today.

wow i would have never imagined that there were people that white in Africa then, i guess you learn something every day though

 

[Huayna Capac357]

People from Europe, the Middle East, Iran, and Central Asia are white.

Thus, Carthaginians were technically white.

 

[TheLastOne36]

wow i would have never imagined that there were people that white in Africa then, i guess you learn something every day though

How could you honestly not know that?

Spoiler :

why do i have a feeling he's a 13 year old? but even then i think most people that old would no that...

Anyway back on topic, is the OP question answered?

 

[North King]

How could you honestly not know that?

Spoiler :

why do i have a feeling he's a 13 year old? but even then i think most people that old would no that...

Bit of a troll, there. Classics aren't taught at all in the United States below university level, you know.

 

[Arwon]

It's not classics, it's just a matter of knowing that North Africans are Caucasians.

Though I'd wager europeans are more aware of that than Americans. Or Australians.

 

[holy king]

It's not classics, it's just a matter of knowing that North Africans are Caucasians.

Though I'd wager europeans are more aware of that than Americans. Or Australians.

well, i do know how mexicans look like...

 

[Arwon]

Actually, it's perfectly possible that you don't. I've found a lot of people have inaccurate perceptions of the appearance and genetic make-up of Latin American countries. Europeans tend to overestimate the amount of European blood and Americans tend to underestimate it.

 

[Mirc]

Actually, it's perfectly possible that you don't. I've found a lot of people have inaccurate perceptions of the appearance and genetic make-up of Latin American countries. Europeans tend to overestimate the amount of European blood and Americans tend to underestimate it.

I've seen Latin Americans of all colors. From a Cuban girl that was white white (probably would be as white as me if she didn't stay in the tropical sun for a few months) to many completely black people, and all the shades in between. From my observations, Argentinians, Peruvians and many times Mexicans tend to be whiter than Brazilians or Bolivians. But then again although I've been in contact with lots of them (being a guitarist, and guitar being so amazingly popular around there) I've never been there for myself so I could be wrong.

I love the mix in that area of the world. And I love really dark-haired Latin American girls with green or blue eyes too.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I have met white Hispanics, black Hispanics, Native American Hispanics, and even Chinese Hispanics. I think it is more cultural than racial.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Latin America is the perfect example of an extremely racially mixed society.