Race to the bottom: Mugabe vs Smith!

[Che Guava]

We touched on this a bit in the Ian Smith thread, but why not open a whole new one to look at that issue specifically? What follows is an interview with Richard Donald Munsaka, a black Zimbabwean/Rhodesian comparing Ian Smith's rule to Robert Mugabe's:

Zimbabwean: 'We were the enemy'

Zimbabwean Richard Donald Munsaka, 53, told the BBC News website, via telephone from his home in the north-western town of Hwange, how he felt after hearing that the ex-Rhodesia leader Ian Smith had died.

Ian Smith was a sick old man. I don't begrudge him for what he did - I think he felt he was doing right.

He was just an old Zimbabwean man.

But life under Ian Smith wasn't better than it is now.

I have lived under a cruel regime and I am old enough to know the difference between the two.

When he was prime minister most of us [black] Africans used to live in what were then called tribal trust [communal] lands.

But my father worked on the railways so I lived in town - in the country's second city, Bulawayo.

Little change left over

In those days, things like bread, although it was there on the shelves, for us it was a luxury. Our staple food was sadza [maize meal cooked with water and a little salt]. We had a desire for bread but didn't have money to buy it.

I remember always smelling bread if I was walking near to the area where the whites lived and shopped - I loved its smell and wished I could taste it.

But I never did for many years!

Working on the railways until 1978-79, my father's wages enabled him to buy two 50kg bags of meilie [maize] meal and have a little change left over.

My father worked as an assistant grinder - a white or a coloured [mixed race] man would weld the tracks and then my father would grind.

The most an African could aspire to be, working on the railways, was a stoker on one of the locomotives and even then that was more for coloureds.

Blacks only got the menial jobs.

But if you were an educated African you could be either a teacher or a nurse.

Blacks weren't allowed

Under Ian Smith the job that I do now - I am an operating superintendent at Hwange power station - would have been a job for a white man.

Even train drivers were white - blacks weren't allowed. People like me weren't trained to learn skills.

When my dad set off to work in the morning, my mother would follow him along the railway line to look for shrubs and any wild vegetables that were growing. She would return home and cook them - without cooking oil - so we had something to eat with our sadza.

That was the life of my mother; to make sure we had a meal on the table.

And there was no tea either because there was no money for sugar.

In those days there were many silly taxes that blacks had to pay. You had to pay a sum to be able to own a dog, even a bicycle.

Goodbye

And if you so happened to have a few cattle to your name and if a white person came along and wanted them, they could just take them.

You would just be told: "You see that bull over there, that is for the boss." That was it. Goodbye. There was nothing you could do.

I had a cousin who left in 1978 for Angola to become a fighter. He went to war because his late father's nine cattle had been taken away from him by a white cattle rancher. At independence he went and took his cattle back.

But I lost another of my uncles to that same white rancher. He was fishing with a few of my other uncles when they were used for target practice.

I was still a young man but I have never forgotten, up to this day.

My parents had to pay for our school fees. My two younger brothers lived with one of my uncles in the so-called tribal trust area so they could attend school.

War

When I visited them, I remember the soldiers - Selous Scouts and forces from the Rhodesian Light Infantry. We even knew some of the notorious ones by name.

They used to come and ask: "Where are the terrorists?"

They used to beat up the women and children if no-one answered.

I remember in 1978 there was a fight between the Rhodesian forces and the guerrillas. We all had to run and hide for a long time because the next day Ian Smith's soldiers came, as they always did, to take all the young men away.

It was war then.

I stayed and hid at an uncle's home. There were 20 of us in a three-roomed house. We survived on cabbage leaves cooked in plain water with some salt (no cooking oil or tomatoes!) and sadza when it was there.

I never actually joined the struggle as a fighter because by the time I wanted to fight, we were told to stay as it was said that there was so many in Zambia, Angola, Mozambique and Tanzania.

We were the enemy

The things we see now, like the bad shortages and everything, you still can't compare.

Us Africans, we had to fend for ourselves. We were the enemy.

In those days, though, people in tribal trust lands did not suffer like those in the towns because they made sure they were self-sufficient despite that the land the blacks had to live on was not so fertile.

The whites took the best for themselves.

Then my father used to point to this land in the distance and tell me that was where our family belonged... but now since the land reform programme, our family have got a portion of our land back.

I never saw a time when I thought that Ian Smith was helping the African people.

Tough nowadays

The comparing reasons that people are making now is not right.

After 1980 and up to the 1990s, life in Zimbabwe was so good.

Britain tried to persuade Smith not to illegally declare independence

It was only after the 1980s that blacks could afford to buy cars, televisions, radios, furniture and houses. And everyone went to school, right up to university.

Right now I own a motor vehicle - a Toyota Hilux [4x4]. I live in a nice suburban house - three bedrooms, two adjoining lounges, two bathrooms each with a toilet, TV with satellite and I have the internet. You are phoning me on my mobile phone and I also have a landline.

And I although I am a Zanu-PF member, I am not an official. I have worked for everything I own. Apart from the land that was returned to my family.

I own property in Victoria Falls that I acquired myself, without a loan. I am having a house and guesthouse built but these days it is difficult. Getting building materials, even cement is a challenge.

Yes life is tough nowadays here.

But when I say that I am comparing it to life during the 1990s.

Not to the those during Smith's time because about that, there is nothing to talk about - it was oppression.

Robert Mugabe is not the best leader that we can have.

I want the president to leave - he has had his go, he has had his time.

But never will Mugabe be worse than Smith.

link

So who do you think was a better leader for Rhodesia/Zimbabwe? Who was a better leader for its people? Will history be kind to either leader?

(and yes, I am aware of the biases in the interview above! I just wanted to use it as a jumping off point for discussion; other sources are of course welcome...)

 

[Ansar]

This looks like a job for...

amadeus!

 

[Che Guava]

This looks like a job for...

amadeus!

/innocently/ That hadn't crossed my mind at all.....

But seriously, I know that amadeus will have his opinion, and others will have thiers. It's a thread for ANYONE with an opinion

 

[Ansar]

I simply meant I can't wait to see what is amadeus' opinion on this.

 

[Norseone]

Well...sure Mugabe is better for him than Smith. He is a rich man now...rich(black) men do fine in Mugabe's Africa as long as they know their place. What they should do is ask the shop owners who are forced to sell food at a huge loss, people who cant afford even that, and the millions hiding out in South Africa if their life was better under Ian Smith than Mugabe.

Honestly, I dont think Smith was a model leader...however I think fewer people were probably starving under his regime. The people that Mugabe liked and allowed to get rich by taking things away from the people who were rich under Smith are of course goona like Mugabe better.

I gotta believe at some point having a home and food is going to be more important than voting rights for some people who are starving. However, this is like which is less painful? scooping your eyes out with a spoon or flaying yourself alive.

 

[amadeus]

I read this article before and was waiting to find the goose that laid the rotten egg...

I am a Zanu-PF member

I found it.

As for the discussion on Smith's government, I'll get to that when I have a bit more time. Until then, Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[Che Guava]

I gotta believe at some point having a home and food is going to be more important than voting rights for some people who are starving. However, this is like which is less painful? scooping your eyes out with a spoon or flaying yourself alive.

I'm not sure tha analogy really fits. I might liken it more to the choice of choosing to go on strike with a union or to keep working as a scab. One might serve you better in the long-run, but I think when you have little in the cupboards, you do what you have to do in the moment.

I read this article before and was waiting to find the goose that laid the rotten egg...



I found it.

Yep, saw that as well. But I also noticed this:

Robert Mugabe is not the best leader that we can have.

I want the president to leave

I know that it doesn't make it completely 'balanced', but it might demonstrate that his views aren't exactly one-sided. And of course, as I mentioned in the OP, I welcom all other accounts as well.

As for the discussion on Smith's government, I'll get to that when I have a bit more time. Until then, Happy Thanksgiving.

Well without you stirring the pot, it'll be on page 47 by then . Well, I hope not, since it is an interesting and current topic, for me at least!

 

[Norseone]

I'm not sure tha analogy really fits. I might liken it more to the choice of choosing to go on strike with a union or to keep working as a scab. One might serve you better in the long-run, but I think when you have little in the cupboards, you do what you have to do in the moment.

Haha that wasnt supposed to be an analogy to backing Smith or Mugabe...that was an analogy to me picking which one was better. Neither are good.

 

[Che Guava]

Haha that wasnt supposed to be an analogy to backing Smith or Mugabe...that was an analogy to me picking which one was better. Neither are good.

I understand that, I was making the allusion to a choice of food or democratic rights. One gives you long-term security, the other fulfills short-term needs.

 

[Norseone]

I understand that, I was making the allusion to a choice of food or democratic rights. One gives you long-term security, the other fulfills short-term needs.

Fine...I just wanted to talk about scooping out eyes with a spoon.

 

[Che Guava]

ok, in the interest of getting a larger view of the situation, here's another BBC series done in 2004 asking a variety of Zimbabweans what life is like under Mugabe.

Chenjurai Hove is an award-winning Zimbabwean poet and novelist, now in exile.

Spoiler :

He once shared Robert Mugabe's vision of land resettlement and independence from colonial Britain, but was critical of Mr Mugabe and the way land redistribution was conducted after the year 2000.

"First the government offered me a farm so that I would shut up. But I said I was not a farmer and I am not in the habit of receiving stolen property.

"Every day, my family and I received death threats and it became unbearable. I had to leave. The government does not care anymore. It has no sense of shame.

"They want zombies. They want people who are yes-men and flatterers.

"Mugabe actually believes now that he is a god or demi-god and he can do whatever he wants and nobody can challenge him.

"He is the power. He has completely degenerated in office to the point where he is absolutely dangerous, to himself and also to those he rules.

"I have not given up [on my dream of Zimbabwe]. I have not given up because I still have hope, as long as the people of Zimbabwe - they and I - still have a vision of the country as a place where we can live positively and with respect."

Beatrice Mtetwa is a fearless campaigner who has defended some high-profile cases in Zimbabwe.

Spoiler :

She has spoken out on controversial legislation such as the Public Order and Security Act and the proposed NGO (non-governmental organisation) Bill, which has attracted criticism from around the world.

"The NGO bill means basically civil society as we know it will simply not be there.

"There would be nobody to record the excesses of government, there will be nobody to help your ordinary person in the street understand their rights. There will be nobody to feed the poor. There will be no other voice other than the government's voice, and this includes churches.

"So the bill is basically seen as closing the democratic spaces, the same as shutting down newspapers. The same as making sure that only one voice is heard.

'Selective application'

"Every normal human being has an obligation to stand up and fight that bill because it has far more serious implications, especially for the poor.

"The poor in Zimbabwe depend entirely on food aid from the NGOs and if you stop that, as the government has done, you are killing innocent, poor people whose day-to-day living is about worrying about where their next meal is coming from.

"[The laws] are only applied to persons who are deemed to be against the government or opposition members of parliament. So there is selective application of the law.

"If, for example, ruling Zanu-PF Party youths decide to go on a march, the police will escort them to wherever they want to go and make sure they get to do what they want to do. That would not happen to those persons who are seen to be government opponents. That is selective application."

George Shire is a London-based Zimbabwean academic who is close to Robert Mugabe's Zanu PF Party.

Spoiler :

As Crossing Continents was refused government interviews or statements, the programme spoke to George Shire and found he was very supportive of the NGO (non-governmental organisation) bill.

"The bill the government is introducing is not going to throw NGOs out.

"This bill establishes the relationship between NGOs and the state. Now, if the function of NGOs is to assist people, then they will be able to continue to do so.

"They are not being excluded from working because they receive foreign funding, they will only be excluded from Zimbabwe if they work outside their remit.

"So the key word is "assist". NGOs must come clean and say why it is that they want to move away from their duty to assist into this very problematic realm of intervention.

"The argument I am using is this: You have to go back to those keywords - assistance or intervention.

"NGOs must assist, not intervene in the working of a country. It is not the function of non-governmental organisations to intervene in the working of a country where they are only accountable to their funders and not to the people."

Alexander Kanengoni is a Zimbabwean writer and Mugabe supporter who was allocated a farm in the controversial new land reform.

Spoiler :

"Robert Mugabe has always been guided by his beliefs and visions.

"The rallying point for all of us who fought in the war of independence was the issue of the land.

"In the 1960s and 70s our rallying slogans were all about land. I write about land. It is from the land that we get everything, our food, our sustenance.

"The relationship between us and the land is almost spiritual actually. My father had his own land, we grow up living on and knowing the land.

"I believe that this relationship is so strong that to try to break it is almost like trying to kill one part of a people.

"When you look at the details [of the land reform] there are a lot of problems. For example, such a radical change could not be implemented over such a short time.

"Unfortunately there were no adequate resources, the people were not trained, and poor rainfall patterns compounded the situation.

"I would certainly not call myself a farmer yet. I am new to the job and have lots to learn, but I work together with a white farmer who is very experienced. He is an amazing man.

"My first crop was about eight hectares of sugar beet. He came with his truck and tilled the land for me and planted the beet for me. This year we are having good harvests.

"Some of the things that are said about [hunger and starvation] are exaggerations of the truth."

On 4 November, Roy Bennett, a prominent landowner and MDC MP, was sentenced to one year in jail and hard labour for contempt of parliament, after he pushed the justice minister to the ground.

Spoiler :

Here he is speaking before his arrest to SW Radio Africa, a Zimbabwean radio station based in London:

"The first thing I would like to do is say that what happened is regrettable.

"Unfortunately, for three years now, I, in my personal capacity, and those loved ones near and dear to me have suffered at the hands of this regime.

"It was very unfortunate what happened in parliament, but the speaker should have stopped the abuse thrown at me, a diatribe of the most racial and personal insults.

"That is coupled with all the events that have taken place over the last three years. I am a human being, I have got blood running through my veins. I saw red, I said [to the minister]: 'You have gone too far,' and I pushed him, and he fell over. No-one was kicked. No fists were thrown. It was two pushes.

"The whole of parliament was a witness.

"But I honestly believe that we are at the end of the road now, the people have had enough of the totalitarian rule of Robert Mugabe and [his party] Zanu PF and they will speak out and I am absolutely proud to be one of those people who have stood by democracy and justice for the people of Zimbabwe."

 

[downtown]

This whole coversation seems silly to me. Does it really matter if the boot of oppression is a white boot, or a black boot?

Neither of these men were/are good leaders. Both have attacked and "kept down" large percentages of their population. History should not be kind to either.

I feel like we're bringing this up to stick it to amadeus or something. We all know what he is already.

 

[Che Guava]

I feel like we're bringing this up to stick it to amadeus or something. We all know what he is already.

I assure you that this has little to nothing to do with amadeus. I just think it's a timely discussion: Ian Smith has died beleiving he was vindicated in his rule over Rhodesia, while Mugabe continues to hold onto power under great stress. Zimbabweans seem to have a plethora of opinions over which rule was better, and while neither were particularly good leaders, each had thier own positive qualities and I think they deserve to be measured against each other.

 

[amadeus]

So who do you think was a better leader for Rhodesia/Zimbabwe? Who was a better leader for its people? Will history be kind to either leader?

Well, instead of getting ready to go visit my family for Thanksgiving, I decided to write this up instead. Looks like I'll show up a little later than I had planned.

Okay. Without question, Smith was the far better leader. I'll cite for you the following data:

The actual GNP per capita in 1976 was $550. (Adjusted for inflation, that would be about $2,020.) In 2006, it was $430.

Gold production in 1976 was 25,000kg. By 2007, this has fallen to about 8,000kg.

Air Rhodesia operated 13 aircraft in 1977. By 2007, Air Zimbabwe had 5 functional aircraft.

In 1970-1975, the male life expectancy was 49.80 years. On the surface, this doesn't sound like much, but it was the highest life expectancy rate in continental black Africa at this time. In neighboring Zambia, the life expectancy was 7 years fewer. 8 years fewer in Botswana and Mozambique.

Average daily caloric consumption per capita in the early 1970s was 2,670. Five years ago, it had dropped to about 2,000.

In terms of press freedom, Rhodesia was the second highest of African countries, and 42nd of 91 countries surveyed. By 2006, Zimbabwe was the 39th highest in terms of press freedom in black Africa, scoring 149th out of 169 countries; by this time, only 4 other countries in black Africa scored lower (Ethiopia, Equatorial Guinea, Somalia, and Eritrea respectively.)

External public debt in Rhodesia in the 1970s amounted to about $156 million, or just over $500 million today. Zimbabwe's external public debt in 2007 was about $4.5 billion.

That's just a few of the things that were going right as far as conditions were under Smith's government. However, many statistics are indeed hard to find and some of them are less favorable to the Smith years (infant mortality was about 25% higher) although many of these can be associated with technological developments, a prime example being how the number of television sets per capita has increased 300% since the early 1970s.

Comparatively speaking, Rhodesia was also a more democratic country, for blacks and whites alike; the black electorate numbered probably around 30,000 for the 6 million Africans. Admittedly, this isn't a very high number, but it still counts for more than what an election in Zimbabwe does today, where none of the votes matter.

Now, am I suggesting that Rhodesia was a perfect society? Absolutely not. Was it flawed? In some ways, yes, but you have to remember that all modern, industrialized countries started out this way. After all, Korea was once a poorer country than Ghana, but look where they are today!

Let's just say that the bush war never happened and the economy (GNP) kept growing at a 6% real annual rate. (This is actually a conservative estimate, as growth rates pre-war were about 10% averaged during the first ten or so years of independence.) If that had happened, Rhodesia would have the highest GNP per capita in Africa, almost triple that of South Africa. I'll admit it's optimistic at best, but you can see that the country certainly would have been better off economically under the Smith administration.

That said, I'm off to go eat some turkey.

 

[Bad Player]

I saw this in The Australian (from The Times):

Life was 'better under Smith'

Jan Raath, Harare | November 23, 2007

THE death of Ian Smith, the former prime minister of Rhodesia, was marked by official revilement in Zimbabwe yesterday.

"He will be remembered for being a racist, and for killing thousands of innocent young Zimbabweans," state radio said, referring to Rhodesian commando raids on black nationalist guerilla camps during the country's civil war.

The view was different for Ambrose Madzovha, sitting in a crowded minibus on his way to work as a bar bottlewasher.

"There was one war veteran (a member of one of President Robert Mugabe's militias) in the bus who was saying Smith was very rough," he said.

"But everybody else was saying he was a good man - when he was here, you could buy bread without queueing, you could get meat every day, beer, and it was cheap.

"Today we are starving, everything is on the black market and life is terrible."

Twenty-seven years of relentless propaganda demonising Mr Smith as a bloodthirsty racist murderer appear to have made little impression on ordinary Zimbabweans. The words "It was better under Smith" are heard constantly from the lips of hungry, desperate people who remember, or have been told, of the pre-independence days of relative abundance.

To many young black Zimbabweans, though, the man who rebelled against Britain 42 years ago and dominated the international agenda for decades, is unknown.

Unlike most deposed African leaders, Smith did not have to live behind a fortress in a foreign country.

He never locked the low gate of his comfortable double-storey house in Phillips Avenue, Belgravia, in Harare, where his neighbour was the embassy of communist Cuba.

He drove himself to and from his farm, Gwenoro, in Shurugwi in the country's Midlands, sometimes picking up a hitchhiker. His stooping, limping walk, the result of a crash in a Hurricane fighter in World War II, was seen often on the streets of Harare. .

Soon after Mugabe's violent invasions of white-owned land led to food shortages, Smith went to a Harare supermarket to buy maizemeal for his staff and took his place at the back of a long queue. He was instantly led to the front.

It was not just Smith's unconscious ordinariness or people's memories of cheap, amply stocked Rhodesian shops that endeared him to people.

His Rhodesian Front colleagues who deserted him after independence to side with Mugabe's Zanu-PF party were looked down on by ordinary blacks for their disloyalty.

Smith was admired for his blunt speaking and for openly defying Mugabe.

The Times

 

[Japanrocks12]

I read this article before and was waiting to find the goose that laid the rotten egg...



I found it.

As for the discussion on Smith's government, I'll get to that when I have a bit more time. Until then, Happy Thanksgiving.

still, does it undermine his account of life under the smith regime?

 

[Fifty]

amadeus is fiftychat's Minister of Africa-Related Stuff

He speaks for all of us.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

I have to agree with downtown. What exactly is wrong with saying they're both unforgivably bad leaders? Given that no sane poster is going to back a white supremacist or a spectacularly inept dictator wannabe, is there really any profit in debating who was worse?

 

[Fifty]

I have to agree with downtown. What exactly is wrong with saying they're both unforgivably bad leaders? Given that no sane poster is going to back a white supremacist or a spectacularly inept dictator wannabe, is there really any profit in debating who was worse?

Rambling on about random pointless crap is what makes us OTers. Don't rain on our parade, jerk!

 

[Bad Player]

Yeah, vote Ron Paul, jerk!