Racism in LOTR?

[HannibalBarka]

Total BS, PC idioties. When was the last time you've seen a white or a black guy in a chinese movie ?

 

[CurtSibling]

Seems the trend by certain dissillusioned people to attack well-respcted institutions...

Wait, that's me!

 

[nihilistic]

Inserting an artificial role for the specific reason of race would be racism. I more bothered by Tolkien's crappy effort at writing ROTK than by this.

 

[Flak]

Originally posted by Benderino
My sister, an anthropology major at Cornell University, with a focus on minority affairs, got upset after seeing the second LOTR movie, for she said it was perpetuating prejudism. First of all, she claimed that there were no black characters, and that all the good guys were white (very white, in the case of the elfs) and all the bad guys were dark (dark and evil, orcish, ugly...or those Middle Eastern-looking guys in the movie).

She was sad at the thought of a black child going to see the movie and not finding any role models for him.

For the point of discussion, I won't reveal my opinions, but I am interested in yours.

IMO, she's wrong. She should read the books and see the movies again. She apparently wasn't paying attention or you haven't correctly portrayed what she really said to us here (what I truly suspect) and you just want throw out some bait in hopes of getting a lively response. Looks like you've succeeded.

If your sister truly is educated, then she likely meant that there are no 'positive' role models for black or other minorities in the story. However, this is endemic of the American/European culture and nothing new. In the black community, it is well known that many 'positive' role modes are still associated by the majority of youth as white. It's a perceived problem, with realistic consequences. Plugging in token blacks into movies will not solve most of these problems.

Originally posted by The Yankee
Oh boy...here we go again.

White usually symbolized good in fairy tales and older films and the like, black was evil. Has nothing to do with race.

For European and North African cultures, yes. Some other examples exist in other places and time periods as well. But this is not in general true for the world.

This portrayal of non-whites in his stories actually might have quite a lot to do with some of Tolkiens cultural views. But what's he supposed to do about it? Not all authors are open-minded liberals. And considering the time period he grew up in and wrote the stories in, he might have been considered quite liberal for his views. Everything has to be put in context of the authors environment and experiences.

This is not a black-and-white issue if you'll forgive the pun. There are possibly verifiable racial undertones in his stories, and they are certainly not kind to non-whites. But this doesn't mean the stories are racist or that Tokien was. And it is certainly a stretch to say that any of the main characters have to be any particular skin color, to satisfy our present cultural demands. (NOTE: There is precedent for this however throughout human history.)

Originally posted by Benderino

Secondly, it would be selling-out, for I think that Tolkien himself never imagined black people in his stories (One more point in the fight against PC).

Sure, maybe throwing in a black character for good measure may be pleasing to some in the black community, however, Tolkien fans across the globe would be mortified at the "correcting" of the fine piece of literature for the sake of a modern audience.

First, (in reply to your secondly), we do have some idea of what Tolkien thought, as he wrote a lot of it down. He did indeed imagine black people in his stories and mention them specifically in several of his books. The Two Towers has an entire of them moving North to fight with the enemy.

Second, the movies have taken quite a bit of liberty with the books. I don't consider your point here valid. If one of the characters had been black, but portrayed the character right down to every fault and perfection to the letter of the book, there likely would have been less uproar than say, inserting an army in a scene where none existed in the original story (the elves at Helm's deep). I suppose it depends on the interpretation of the Tolkien purist.

Originally posted by Perfection
My family has no black people in it, am I bigot?

This remark was uncalled for. The original poster did not say that Tolkien or the film producers were bigots. In fact, the original poster seems to have taken quite a bit artistic liberty themself with what their sister supposedly pointed out. It sounds like you're trying to stir up even more bait than the original poster.

Originally posted by calgacus
Tolkein's book is a take on pre-medieval Germanic/European mythology. There were simply no black people in that world. It would in fact be strange to see them in that movie. Although modern USA may have many kinds of races in it, that doesn't mean that this world should be invented for, or retro-imposed on the world of ancient Europe or pre-war England!

As I stated earlier, Tolkien threw an entire army of 'black people' in his book The Two Towers as an invading force with purpose of serving the Enemy. Obviously, your interpretations of Germanic/European mythology differ significantly from Tolkien's.

Such retro-imposition of cultural views has been occurring since time immemorium. When humans started trading stories and tales, they were modified for their target audiences. Doing the same to LOTR would be no crime. It has happened many, many times before. It will happen again. In fact, it has happened to LOTR. Just in more subtle ways than you might realize. Listen to some of the dialogue in the movies very carefully sometime. I picked up words and expressions that didn't exist twenty years ago, and will likely be relatively 'archaic', twenty years from now.

Originally posted by nihilistic
Inserting an artificial role for the specific reason of race would be racism. I more bothered by Tolkien's crappy effort at writing ROTK than by this.

Not really. It would just be our own culture modifying the story for our present day context. Nothing new.

 

[nihilistic]

Originally posted by Flak
inserting an army in a scene where none existed in the original story (the elves at Helm's deep).

Yeah, that was awful.

Originally posted by Flak
As I stated earlier, Tolkien threw an entire army of 'black people' in his book The Two Towers as an invading force with purpose of serving the Enemy.

They were black? I thought they were just orcs?

Originally posted by Flak
Not really. It would just be our own culture modifying the story for our present day context. Nothing new.

OK, I see your point, But I assert that there is a difference between modifying the story to a modern day context and forcing to modify a story to a modern day context.

 

[Flak]

Originally posted by nihilistic



They were black? I thought they were just orcs?

When I get home (at work now), I'll type in the part of the passage that specifically mentions the people from the South. In the movie, this was the army traveling with the huge elephants. A PC point to be made here: As you can seen in the film, none of the people in this army looked black to me, or even that particulary dark. It looks to me like the creators of this film decided that that would send out a to 'negative' a message, and decided to use people of indeterminent origin. Very curious.

 

[jpowers]

Two observations
1. Saruman the White starts off as a good guy, but when he betrays Gandalf, he becomes Saruman of Many Colors. Stick that in your Rainbow Coalition and smoke it, Jesse!
2. If you want to give Peter Jackson $300 million to make a 3-part epic of Captain Planet and his band of multi-cultural teenage goodie-two-shoes, be my guest, but don't complain that a series of books written in the 40's in England with the intent of creating English mythology doesn't feature a Zulu, a Shaolin Monk and a handicapped lesbian.

 

[Angelscotboi]

I would just like to point out that If anyone had bought the books and read the appendix at the god damned end of it then all these stupid questions and debated would be answered.

At the end it TELLS you that Middle Earth is Europe; the lost realm of Arnor lies where Britain would be, Rohan is at around south France/Switzerland/Austria, and Gondor is at Italy/Greece in relation between the two worlds.
Near Harad is supposed to be the Middle East (IE the Arab world) and North Africa; and Far Harad is supposed to be far away lands such as the Bantu/Zulu/Xhosa/Kongolese peoples.

Going by this and taking into account it is set in a early middle ages world, you will see that Yes there is no black people! Nor should there be!

Im all for positive representation of minorities; but this rampant political correctness where people are demanding minorities in a book/movie set in a world where there are none is rediculous!

I am supremely insulted your sister would say LOTR is racist, im a LOTR fan, and if i knew her in person id prolly never speak to her again after that one.

EDIT: Nihilistic...the "Black Army" that Sauron commands are his servants from Far Harad, they are Black people but they dont make much of an appearance really...

 

[HuckFinn]

I don't understand why a black kid can't have a white role model... why can't they idolize Frodo even if he isn't a gansta rapper?

 

[Double Barrel]

Its o.k. for millions of white kids to idolize Michael Jordan, but God forbid a black kid ever idolizes a white person.

I've heard this same argument from other bleeding-heart libs, too. Pathetic.

jeesh, death to the thought police!

 

[MummyMan]

True HuckFinn, a black child shouldn't have to have their role model be black. If they don't like being discriminated just on color then why do they need only a black role model? I'm not saying that black kids do this, just that its a double standard for people to say that its prejudiced for their to be no black people. Also, i find it unrealistic and annoying when they have politically correct tv shows where all minorities are represented. But for a tv show like say the Andy Griffith show where there are no black guys to be found on the show, even though its in the Mayberry, North Carolina, that is an example of prejudice.

 

[Superevie]

There is some racism in LotR, unfourtunately. I wish I never thought of it cuz it kinda ruined it for me. The whitest people are the elves and loved the best and are the coolest. The orcs are described as "swarthy, slant eyed, and broad nosed." Yeesh! If that isn't some racisim, I dunno what is. I try to not think about when I read the books, but it's tricky. Why Tolkien, why?!

 

[Norlamand]

Benerino your sister needs to grow up and find something worth expending her, currently misdirected, energy on. Given her stated major, I doubt that is likely to happen. Ask her why Alex Haley portrays the majority of whites as "bad" and blacks as "good" in Roots. Was he being racist or just telling a story from one perspective? I enjoyed both books and didn't feel either of them to be "biased" or "racist".

 

[Angelscotboi]

Oh my god.
The book does not have racism in it! Its a work of fiction! Tolkien was not having any digs at any culture group jesus!

It is a book. An attempt by Tolkien to create a Mythology of Ancient Britain like what Greece, Italy, Egypt, hell even France, Germany, Spain, and the other old European countries have and Britain didnt really.
He was an avid history buff, at least according to his son, and was dissapointed that Britain did not have any substantial mythology...

So he created a Mythological world to represent an ancient world of earth...so of course black people arent going to be there!

If you see racism in his books, which are all about a mythological world; then you really need to have your HEAD examined.
Either that or take a chill pill and stop seeing racism everywhere.

I worry for people who see racism in everything...they will prolly drive themselves - or everyone else- to an early grave from their moral crusades!

 

[Kinniken]

DISCLAIMEr: I'm a LOTR fan, I read the books three-four times first in French and then in English, I love them and I thought the movies were rather good.

However I must agree that Tolkien had some racist prejudices which shows in the books ; the "noble races" of Gondor and so on or white, but the Barbarians to the East are Asian-looking and the evil men to the South are black and allied with Sauron.
It's interesting BTW to compare that with the world of Narnia, a serie of children' books written at around the same time by Tolkien's great friend CS Lewis which features a great continent with Good, Noble white mens in the north and arab-looking, slave-trading, devil-worshipping evil men to the South.

Beyond the whole "Black/White" issue, which is present but not very important in the LOTR, there is the whole idea of races of men, of lines of Kings and of having a "position" in life - only the hobbits seems to break free of that. Consider the Intendants of Gondors: they may have ruled the Kingdom for centuries, and yet they are not "fit to rule" ; while Aragorn, who has rarely been to the White City and whose ancestors were last kings aeons ago, is just worthy of the Crown because he is in the correct blood-line.
An other interesting passage in a similar vein is one where Aragorn explains that the races of men are divided in three parts: the eveil races who fight to do evil, the better races (like Rohan) who are righteous but fight for fun, and the noble races (Gondor, of course) who fight only to defend their noble ideals.

Does it prevents me from loving the book? No. But it's quite clear for me that Tolkien was at least a little racist and that his books reflect it.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Perfection
My family has no black people in it, am I bigot?

Yes.



Seriously, this PC idea can get quite annoying. And this, is just stupid. You have to wonder about people who advocate such ideas and opinions.

 

[Smaasnekje]

Let's see... The LOTR story is based upon Celtic/Nordic mythology and tales.. To tell you the truth, there were werent that many coloured people living in the northern parts of the world at the time..

 

[pawpaw]

hey, they didn't like the wizard of oz so they remade it ( the wiz ), so they can do LOTR too--tha lordz a da ringz, with puff daddy as fredo

 

[Cilpot]

Originally posted by HuckFinn
I don't understand why a black kid can't have a white role model...

What HuckFinn said. Can't I have Morgan Freeman as a rolemodel (e.g. as his portrayal as US president in Deep Impact) because I'm white?

I think therein lies the racism. I havent read the books, though, but if orcs were described like superevie said that does sound a bit harsh. In the movies, though, the orcs are ORCS. Not blacks. And the emphasis of darkness as evil, well that may come from the fact that many people are instinctly scared of the dark. Not scared of black people!

 

[FredLC]

Originally posted by jpowers
Two observations
1. Saruman the White starts off as a good guy, but when he betrays Gandalf, he becomes Saruman of Many Colors. Stick that in your Rainbow Coalition and smoke it, Jesse!
2. If you want to give Peter Jackson $300 million to make a 3-part epic of Captain Planet and his band of multi-cultural teenage goodie-two-shoes, be my guest, but don't complain that a series of books written in the 40's in England with the intent of creating English mythology doesn't feature a Zulu, a Shaolin Monk and a handicapped lesbian.

Very funny indeed...

One thing I'd like to state, though:

I felt no racist tones in the movies; they simply are too superficial for that. But I don't think that the book or the movies are about many races getting together, but about the fall of the elfs and the rise of man (thinking this made me find the unexplainable elf assistance in helm's deep one of the worst modifications made by the movie)... what can be interpreted as propaganda for a preferred race.

We should all remember, also, that Saruman the white, when turned bad, was not described as “Saruman of many colors" in the movies; he kept being remembered as white, as he kept using a white hand as his symbol. Also that the nazgûl true faces were white phantoms, as Frodo sees them when using the one ring.

In the book, however, the many references to the good human races as white and the bad human races as black did call my attention. And if it's true that it's temporal placement would prevent "black heroes", it should also prevent "black villains"

However, the most relevant thing of the sort for me haven't been mentioned so far - A possible ROTK spoiler now, if you didn't read the book you may want to stop reading - that, when they return from Mordor and they find out about the shire's purge, and they fix it (if I recall correctly using one of Galadriel's gifts), well, he says that the next generation of Hobbits was of special magnificence (as in benefited by a magical factor in their land), and he says specifically that "an unusual number of them had the blonde hair that is so rare among hobbits".

Well, stating that the greatest generation of hobbits is one that has the distinguish factor of having a unusual percentage of blonds is something rather dangerous. It can mean only that he planned to imply that it made hobbits closer to elves... but with the context of the book (about the darker tones of the evil races), well, it does sound like racism.

I myself planned to post this idea more than one time, but I decided to wait for after the 3rd movie... well, that's what we gain for making plans...

Anyway, I don't think that the book is less interesting or admirable. I mean, let's remember when and where it was written.

But I do agree that having this position based on the movies is kinda unjustified.

Regards .