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Ranking Leader Characteristics

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by The Civs 6, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. FlyinJohnnyL

    FlyinJohnnyL You need more workers....

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    The greatest benefit of IMP for settlers is to WHIP them, so food is GREAT for that trait. Slow building settlers after the first one is usually not a good idea.
     
  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    No argument from me there. I did not want crazy tier categories. I think all the traits in tier 2 are very strong, and Expansive is my favorite trait :)

    I did note in my first post that I've grown fond of IMP over the years. Really like Cathy.
     
  3. Orion Pax

    Orion Pax Warlord

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    Really like playing as Cathy. Really don't like playing next to Cathy. :sad:

    @FlyinJohnnyL: I'm confused: how does the IMP bonus use food when whipping exactly? I thought it was just hammers..?
     
  4. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Pretty sure he means that you can whip them fast, so strong food means more growth and more settler whipping. You are correct that the bonus applies to just hammers into terms of production, but it also means you can 2 pop whip them fast.
    IMP also works well when food is not that great but you have good natural production and lotsa forests.

    Yes, Cathy can be a pain sometimes, but she is also easy to get to Friendly...though no guarantee against her getting bribed into war, but that is pretty rare and generally easy to get around if the conditions are in place. Real annoying thing is her begging, though if something reasonable it a good diplo boost with her.
     
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  5. MilesBeyond

    MilesBeyond Prince

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    You know, after playing Civ 5 and 6, one thing I really appreciate about the traits in 4 (and to a lesser extent 3) is that almost all of them are broadly useful. While in theory I really like the idea of every leader in later games getting a completely unique ability, in practice many of them were tailored to particular victory conditions, playstyles, or terrain types, sometimes to the point of those leaders feeling pigeonholed. There were a few leaders who weren't, and they were almost without exception the strongest leaders because of that.

    In 4 the majority of the traits are broad and general enough that they're just about always useful. No matter your playstyle, endgoal, or start, you're *always* going to want extra GPP. You're *always* going to want faster workers/granaries. You're *always* going to want extra commerce. Even AGG, as questionable and narrow as it is, still provides a not-inconsiderable benefit against barbs.

    Anyway, I don't mean to steer this into a Civ comparison thread, just an observation I've made.

    I think EXP can sometimes be undervalued because it's not sexy. It's a strong, no-nonsense trait that doesn't have a whole lot in terms of synergy/exploit shenanigans. IND is sexy. IND is a trait where you're like "Hey this is a neat wonder that I normally wouldn't be able to afford but what the hell." Even SPI is sexier than EXP because it just feels so great. Even if you're not really taking advantage of it, after a few games playing non-SPI, sliding into a new civic without any anarchy just feels good. EXP doesn't really feel good, and it doesn't really open up new avenues, it just takes what you were going to do anyway and lets you do it faster. And I'm finding that more and more valuable in my games.

    Also Lizzie > HC change my mind (as leaders. Obviously Incas >>> English)
     
  6. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Umm i somewhat disagree with exp not being sexy, faster worker usually gains some turns at start that would otherwise be lost forever.
    In that regard it shines earlier than any other trait, and also gives a nice morale boost.
     
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  7. MilesBeyond

    MilesBeyond Prince

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    Sorry, when I say "not sexy" I mean it's not flashy, not that it's not strong. Let's use IND as a reference here. With IND, faster building of Forges and wonders you'd get anyway is probably the strongest part of the trait, but it's not very sexy. The sexiest part of the trait is letting you build wonders you normally wouldn't consider. Like depending on map, faster GLH is arguably the strongest part of the trait, but the most fun part of the trait might be picking up Aesthetics and thinking "You know what? Hell yeah. Parthenon. Let's do it." Or take a look at FIN - like yeah I'd say its biggest power boost is early game turning 2 coin tiles into 3, but that's not what's sexy about it. What's sexy about it is stacking mid-game modifiers with a golden age to get those double-moneybag towns. Even PRO is sexier than EXP, despite being much much weaker, because PRO has the siren's song of Drill rushes. Is that a viable strategy? Generally no. But it's rad. Even though EXP is orders of magnitude stronger than PRO, EXP just doesn't have anything that can match the feeling of "Haha hell yes look at me using Churchill to draft out Drill 4 Redcoats." EXP gives you tools to make it easier to win before Riflemen even come online, but while that's much much better, it's not as flashy.

    I'm saying that if Civ traits were a band, EXP would be the bassist - it's solid, it's dependable, it's invaluable, but no one's throwing their underwear at it.
     
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  8. Kaiman

    Kaiman Chieftain

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    I like that distinction; makes sense to me. EXP and ORG felt like the weakest traits when I was first starting out, just because they had the least "wow, cool!" factor to them.
     
    Noble Zarkon likes this.
  9. migalhone

    migalhone Monarch wannabe

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    I like EXP a lot (easily one of my favorite traits) not only because of the cheaper workers and granaries (harbours, like 99% of the buildings in this game, is situational at best), but because of the unconditional bonus :health:, i feel better when i have to settle on non-freshwater tiles, and makes chopping forests guiltless since you have another health bonus to compensate the deforestation.
     
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  10. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    EXP is my favorite trait. Not that I'm saying it is THE best trait but I just have most fondness for it. The effect on the early game can be huge.

    Another side benefit of that extra health, migalhone, is being able to trade away single copies of health resources early on. Good for diplo or nabbing an extra happy resource.
     
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  11. migalhone

    migalhone Monarch wannabe

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    I had honestly forgot that! When can we trade health resources? Writing? Alphabet? It's before Currency IIRC...
     
  12. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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    I believe you don't require any tech to trade resources for other resources or gifting them away for diplo points, you only need to have a trade route connection with another civ. Admittedly those are difficult to get without techs like Wheel, Sailing, Writing (for Open Borders), etc., but if you can manage it you should be fine I think.
     
  13. migalhone

    migalhone Monarch wannabe

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    Lets say i want to give away a health resource to an AI who has no river or road connection with me, his borders dont reach me, but share the same coastline as me. For trading resources, do we both need Sailing? Or is it enough for me to have Sailing?
     
  14. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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    I'm pretty sure it's enough for you (or the AI) to have Sailing, and have uncovered a coastal route connecting your two empires of course. Where you, personally, must have the technology to connect to another civ's empire is to establish foreign trade routes in your cities. So in your example if only you have Sailing and you open borders with the AI than your cities will get foreign trade routes with the AI's cities, but the AI will not get trade routes with your cities.
     
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  15. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yep, it's not a tech that enables resource trading but "trade network" access, which does not necessarily mean you have trade routes.
     
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  16. Kaiman

    Kaiman Chieftain

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    Ooh, hadn't thought of that before, good point.
     
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  17. civac

    civac Warlord

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    This question depends a lot on your settings. Many here consider Philosophical and Industrious strong traits. In a NTT (especially MP) game both are on the lower side of the spectrum.

    Financial is very good in all settings and is the best trait in a vacuum. AGG and especially PRO are pretty consistently weak. For the others, it depends.
     
  18. MilesBeyond

    MilesBeyond Prince

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    Yeah absolutely, ORG is also in that stream - although that one's a bit more understandable because the real benefit of ORG only becomes apparent with the crushing maintenance costs of higher difficulties. But yeah, they're both very non-flashy traits. I'd say the closest ORG comes to being sexy is Frederick with coal, when you can industrialize your entire empire in, like, a turn (again, bearing in mind that sexy = "fun and flashy," not necessarily "powerful and effective").

    What are generally considered the best traits for OCC? I feel like IND and PHI are easily the top there, but that pairing doesn't exist.I wonder about CHA - sooner or later you'll probably have Shakespeare in your city so long term the happiness doesn't matter but short term it's nice, and you're going to need the extra bang for your buck from military units. CRE, EXP, and ORG all seem mostly useless, IMP seems actually useless. FIN is tricky since on the one hand with only one city it's giving very little extra commerce, especially since you probably aren't going to be doing a lot of cottages. On the other hand, with only one city you'll want all the extra commerce you can get.
     
  19. Kaiman

    Kaiman Chieftain

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    What specifically about the Frederick-Coal combination am I missing?

    I've done a fair amount of OCC and either of those with SPI has been pretty useful. AGG too, actually, even though it's usually weak, since like you said you can always use some extra help from military when you only have one-city (and I play without expansions so I don't have CHA/PRO). FIN didn't seem to be much help. EXP actually was really nice because health is the limiting factor in long-term OCC growth thanks to Globe Theater - especially when I have the +3 but even with it lowered to +2 it still seems useful.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  20. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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    The combination of Frederick's Organized trait and the German UB means that Frederick gets a +150%:hammers: bonus towards building his unique factories if he has access to Coal. And possibly more if you have a Forge/Organized Religion/etc.
     

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