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Ranking Leader Characteristics

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by The Civs 6, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. drewisfat

    drewisfat Prince

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    Game carrying: IND, PHI, FIN
    Generally useful: CRE, EXP, CHA
    Weaker in Iso: IMP, SPI
    Weak in Iso & peace: PRO, ORG, AGG

    This would assume deity and no map scripts/settings where you'd be settling a bunch of peacefully.

    I prefer PRO to AGG, so I'd strongly disagree with PRO being "by far the worst". Maybe a difficulty level thing, since on Emperor and below AGG warrior rushes can make winning trivial.
    I prefer HAs + archers to metal units when going on the early attack.
    In a construction attack siege is doing the heavy lifting so the bonus to axes is negligible. The thing making a catapult attack more attractive is the presence of ivory.
    After that we'd probably not want to attack for a while, but if forced to defend nothing beats PRO longbows, and once we get crossbows we'll have the best all around unit for stopping pillaging / going on the attack.
    In the gunpowder era I'd say (city defense + drill 1) > strength 1.

    Normally every city gets barracks while walls should only go in 0-2 cities. Building walls in cities that aren't attacked is a waste, and there can be benefits towards precisely timing your walls to stall the enemy. That said, PRO syncs up with an espionage economy, and if you were to decide to go EE then you'd build walls/castles in every city and PRO would come out ahead on hammers saved. EE syncs with PRO because of cheaper castles AND stronger drafted units, so Nationhood is a good choice for both. EE is an obviously good choice in NTT/AW games but also a good choice with some combo of: poverty, stone, a good target, and few trade possibilities. If you went EE for mass castles you wouldn't be going for Economics anyway since the critical path is Nationalism -> Constitution -> Democracy.
     
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  2. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    CHA can also be a game carrying trait :)
    One of the best in Iso, but also very important in regular games if there are no early happies.

    A sometimes overlooked benefit of Agg are better early warriors (combined with affordable barracks) for deity barb defense.
    So unless you lower difficulty i'd say Agg also gives something for every game.
    + Agg Axe rushes are exciting ;)
    And sometimes even very efficient. I remember the semi-iso map with Stalin vs. Hanni, that game was won with just Axes.
     
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  3. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Yea I don't know about Deity but on Immortal I rarely find myself Axerushing if I'm not Agg. With the cheap Barracks I can get the Cover promo which really helps them. And yes Agg Warriors provide good barb defense. In NC Monty that was apparent. If not Agg, I really would have needed to research Archery there.
     
  4. Kaiman

    Kaiman Chieftain

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    What specifically do you mean here?
     
  5. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Bulb strategies...
     
  6. Jerrymander

    Jerrymander Epistemologist

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    I know I've said this before, but Tokugawa has the best trait set possible. Learn to play competent with him, and realize that traits aren't necessary to perform well. Reminds me of a game a long time ago where obsolete and Dave played the same map as Huayna on Immortal (Diety maybe?). They both got Space victories around late 1800s but obsolete didn't build a single cottage and Dave didn't build a single wonder. Same map.

    In the vein of the thread, though, I must say that Expansive is the best trait in the game, but only because of the double production Granaries.

    Imperialistic is quite fun, though; especially if you abuse it to get 1 turn 17 xp Commando tanks out of your Heroic Epic city.
     
  7. Orion Pax

    Orion Pax Chieftain

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    Intriguing starting techs too, to bring it full circle: The Wheel and Fishing, the only civ. Seems to guarantee a high commerce start if you want it, either through seafood and/or early cottages.
     
  8. Orion Pax

    Orion Pax Chieftain

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    What do folks think of the missing trait combos?
    PRO/ORG
    CRE/CHA
    IND/PHI

    Have seen a lot of good discussion in old posts, but thought it could be interesting to ask here. I think CRE/CHA would be a fun combo to play. Nevermind about the monument being unneeded (it'd just be a super cheap happy building). The gameflow for both building and warring would feel pretty smooth. Easy upgrades, easy border pops/control, and lots of happiness: 2 of CRE's cheap buildings are happiness buildings - once you stack that with CHA's bonuses, that could be some big cities (or cities that can handle lots of whip anger or war weariness). Wish I could create a leader with those traits.
     
  9. migalhone

    migalhone Warlord

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    CRE/CHA: as you said, its a great combo for all the reasons pointed above. Two above-average traits who are relatively easy to leverage, and quite player-friendly. Dunno why a leader with these traits wasn't added, perhaps the developers thought it was "overpowered", or too much in one leader? Then again, The Incas are in the game...

    PRO/ORG: this combo feels...average? Maybe it could be useful if you want to focus on espionage? Otherwise have no idea how to best leverage this, or what would be the point. Maybe if the UB and/or UU really sinergized in someway? A Longbow/Xbow UU who was good on the offense as well as defending, paired with a Walls/Castle UU with some sort of growth/economic boost?

    IND/PHI: ok this one is way too strong for one leader to have. It's as good as IND/FIN, and i can see the developers thinking "nope, too strong for one leader to have it." Then again...the Incas are in the game...

    @Jerrymander why do you say Tokugawa has the best trait set possible? Because it provides no growth/economic bonus thus forcing you to learn the game mechanics and not rely on clutches, like FIN extra commerce?
     
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  10. crullerdonut

    crullerdonut Chieftain

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    I wonder why the original developers chose to leave just those three trait combos unused. Maybe they thought they would've been unbalanced... but I think that it's more likely that they just ran out of time.

    Just for fun, let's imagine some things they could've done:

    Protective/Organized, going to the Japanese. Let's go with Emperor Meiji:
    Spoiler :



    While on the topic of changing things, they should've made the Shale Plant a little better, to compensate for its late entrance. Like the German Assembly Plant, it should've gotten some kind of 2x production boost, such as with Stone (since it's located within stone?). Then, Meiji would be capable of a rapid industrialization, similar to Frederick: Organized for fast Factories, Stone for fast Shale Plants.
    Also, Protective should've additionally allowed for 2x production of Jails and Security Bureaus.

    Creative/Charismatic: Going to Charles III of Spain:
    Spoiler :



    This is because Spain's starting technologies (Fishing/Mysticism) are very slow. So, Charismatic would allow a faster early-game and allow for better early expansion. Creative would also help immensely at ensuring that those holdings can survive.
    In terms of flavor: Charles III made broad reforms, including a new focus on universities and scientific output. (Fast Libraries, etc.)
    As for Charismatic, I'll refer to historian Stanley Payne: "[Charles III] was probably the most successful European ruler of his generation. He had provided firm, consistent, intelligent leadership. He had chosen capable ministers....[his] personal life had won the respect of the people."

    Industrious/Philosophical: First of all, this would be a very powerful trait combination. You could just be a wonder builder and churn out Great People like there's no tomorrow.
    I guess we could give it to Nebuchadnezzar II:
    Spoiler :


    In terms of flavor, Nebuchadnezzar was certainly a builder in real life. He'd really be able to make Babylon one heck of a city, even more than Hammurabi.
     
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  11. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Exactly as I took his comment myself, which is why I so often recommend that new players use Toku when learning.
     
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  12. Orion Pax

    Orion Pax Chieftain

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    Ahhh excellent. I love contemplating all the historical possibilities for new leaders. Those examples all seem to fit nicely @crullerdonut. And those are good picks for civs since they each only have one leader (while some have 3). Way to go with the pictures by the way.

    @migalhone:
    Good assessment. I guess maybe the difference between IND/PHI and IND/FIN is that IND/PHI has obvious synergy? So the combo may have stood out? But IND/FIN is still amazing though, because well their traits are so strong themselves. That seems to just be imbalance in the original trait designs. So yeah I'd say let it fly. Put it in there if the Incas are in (or any FIN leader).

    PRO/ORG combines two of my least interesting traits, so personally I wouldn't seek this out, but I definitely think it should be in there. The espionage possibilities are pretty cool which makes it dynamic and therefore interesting.

    CRE/CHA is hard for me to think would have been seen as overpowered? But maybe cuz those two traits are both generally regarded as second-tier traits on this forum? One could argue EXP is a better pairing with CHA since the health tracks with the happy, but obviously balance changes throughout the game, so the timing of these synergies vary. So again I say, put it in!
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
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  13. Molybdeus2

    Molybdeus2 Chieftain

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    IND/PHI is broken because of the chain reaction between the two of them. Build cheaper wonders with IND => lots of GP points => tons of great people due to PHI => more tech to research more wonders => build more wonder with IND => etc.
     
  14. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Monarch (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    SPI is generally under rated on these Forums, not quite sure why - maybe the emphasis on warring?? As well as always being in the right set of civics, you can change religions when a random one appears in a border town and of course if you are going for a culture victory you will be building probably at least 36 temples all of which are half price. Agree it's an advanced / active trait but it's up there with PHI, IND and CRE as top tier in my book.
     
  15. Molybdeus2

    Molybdeus2 Chieftain

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    For me the issue is that you can only swap civics when you have the prerequisite techs researched, or have a wonder built to enable them. That means you can't select many of them until the critical early game stage has passed. For example switching between Universal Suffrage and Fascism is useful for switching between peaceful building and war, but my games are either won or lost by the time I have Democracy and Fascism researched.

    Conversely Aggressive is not a very good trait, but it does enable effective early game warmongering when the game hangs in the balance.
     
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  16. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Spi is very good for diplo, which gets more important on the highest diff. levels.
    So yep Spi gets less "good trait" votes if you have peoples of all levels.

    But not only that..also gets better on difficult maps where it helps you catching up later (by making friends with all AIs as needed & getting their techs etc),
    those where you cannot do much with let's say CRE cos there are few good city spots.
     
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  17. drewisfat

    drewisfat Prince

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    All I said was SPI was weaker in isolation. When isolated you're not going to switch civics to someone's fav civic, or accept demands without anarchy. You won't even have religions to swap in and out of or temples to build unless you found them yourself. Pre-astro you're saving a couple turns of anarchy with it.
     
  18. Slashninja1467

    Slashninja1467 Chieftain

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    @lymond I'm in general agreement with your list, although I argue that Expansive should be at the end of the top tier traits or in its own tier above the average traits. Civ4 is all about speed in setting your infrastructure and combat. In my experience, being able to get out a worker 2 turns earlier in addition to whipping out granaries at a cheaper cost compounds quickly and leads to a more explosive start that trickles down through the rest of the game. It's similar to having a plains hill capital which is a huge benefit and guarantees a huge advantage in a MP setting. It's definitely a step above Creative, Org, Charismatic at the very least.
     
  19. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    IMP is still underrated for some reason, for HA rushes i would even rate it top tier.
    Allows good balance between setting up needed cities and using commerce even while building settlers, and earlier Generals mean a stronger army.
     
  20. Orion Pax

    Orion Pax Chieftain

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    I really dig IMP for those reasons and went on a IMP kick for a while. Just feels so good to lock down all the key sites you want no problem. Sometimes though it can be tricky to make use IMP's settler bonus since it's only for :hammers:, not :food:. More likely than not it will be a solid benefit, but when you get say corn and pig (otherwise great resources), you're not getting a boost out of IMP. So you kind of have to plan to make sure you are working :hammers: tiles too. Like perhaps grow one more size and work a mine to go with your food tiles. Perhaps it allows you one more river tile and thus more :commerce:, while maintaining a healthy REX rate. Then there's the issue of not being able to work the tiles in new sites because you're REXing faster than you're teching. Just requires a little more planning.

    The great general bonus is of course so fun - being able to produce units with two promotions earlier feels so critical when everyone's got basically the same units, and there's no edge to be found from siege yet. The trick is having to wait for your first war though.
     

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