Rat 40 - Introduction to CCM

[Northern Pike]

Made the mistaken assumption I could upgrade Hussars to Cav not realizing they need some hot kisses to upgrade (or something like that).

Using our SGL for Leonardo wouldn't be terrible, but I'd still save him for Arms Race. Techs will cost a lot more beakers in the IA and getting two free will be a big bonus.

Enlightenment will do us more harm than good, since it cancels slavery. So we should research the Colonialism --> Naval Power --> Imperialism line now, and perhaps pick up Enlightenment later in a trade.

We should rush a lot of the city improvements we're working on and then start building cav. The force we're sending against Portugal won't be enough to do the whole job by itself, in a mod with this loss rate.

Yes, we should pick off Washington while we have ships in the area. I know Vmxa wants to do that anyway.

Around Oea we can move the musketman in and the cannon (at least) to the front.

 

[Civinator]

Greebley, thank you very much for your input. Especially in the case of the galleons this was just in time before I finish the next - and in this case big - update coming with CCM betatest biq version 1.5.

1635 AD: Made the mistaken assumption I could upgrade Hussars to Cav not realizing they need some hot kisses to upgrade (or something like that).

Sorry, they don´t need kisses (so this never can be wrong ). They need the tech combustion for an upgrade to armoured cars.

Found a sort-of bug. It looks like the Galleon defended rather than the War Galleon so the War Galleon provided no defense. I think it is because the defense is the same but the WG have 2 defensive fire. Therefore they use the Galleon first for defense? The galleon that defended is down to 2 hp and the WG are all full health, plus the ship that sank seems to be a Galleon. I think it would be better if the WG defended the Galleons. Why do Frigates defend def 2 transport ships like galleons in the regular game? It may be due to the fact that Frigates move one more square so you can fortify them over the galleons - but I think (am not sure though) that the Frigates defend even if not fortified. Or maybe the fact that they don't have defensive fire? You could also give Galleons one less hp that WG if other things don't work.

Thank you for this report. I completely agree that galleons should be the last ships attacked in a stack containing warships. The only thing in defense that here in CCM is changed in comparison to normal civ 3 is, that the galleons in CCM have defensive bombardement. I think there is an easy fix for that problem, giving the galleons the king flag. So they should always be the last defenders in a stack. There is no problem with names (the hardcoded ruler-bug) as in this case the king-unit upgrades to a normal unit.

Thank you very much for reporting this.

On my previous comment most techs are taking 5 turns at max research. Democracy will be overkill since 4 is the minimum and not worth it. I think it would be worthwhile to lower this value. These games with more techs and faster research make research faster - as shown by the fact we can already almost keep up in Monarchy (5 instead of 4 is close). I see no reason for Democracy and the lack of barracks.

My suggestion for this mod is to consider lowering the 4 to at least 3 (2 in RaR does tend to be fast, but it doesn't spoil it IMO) to bring Democracy more into play. I don't think Demo would be chosen much as it is. It also makes the modern era more likely to be played in (which I like to do).

At present you don´t have democracy (as you consider researching enlightenment). As you were told by Northern Pike, later techs, especially in era 3 and 4 will become much more expensive to research. You have a good chance falling back in the techrace if staying in monarchy the whole time.

I couldn't figure out if we ever get Rails, but it looks like no? If no it will make this huge map a lot slower to play. If you update the civopedia to state it one way or the other (looking at rails it says Steam Power - looking at steam power I see no rails)

I will have a look into the description of terrain improvements and fix it. Thank you for reporting that error.

 

[vmxa]

Using our SGL for Leonardo wouldn't be terrible, but I'd still save him for Arms Race. Techs will cost a lot more beakers in the IA and getting two free will be a big bonus.

Enlightenment will do us more harm than good, since it cancels slavery. So we should research the Colonialism --> Naval Power --> Imperialism line now, and perhaps pick up Enlightenment later in a trade.

I am about to watch cycling and then eat, so will check after then and go, unless Barbslinger jumps in.

I pulled up the save earlier, but not up now, so I do not know, if we have just started Enlight.

On Arms Race, iirc it is Sci Meth. If that is correct, would you want to delay rails? IOW I would think the first tech in that age is Complex for rails, then Sci.

If that is the way to go, then we will be sitting on SGL for a long time. I am fine either way. If looks like we have Leo anyway, then do we gain enough research to make speeding it a good move?

Not sure there is a best way on any of these positions, that is why I am fine with whatever everyone else likes.

BTW the Washington thing, there are 5 or so units on the boats, no weay to heal, if they are not enough. I have to see what they have to counter with.

 

[Northern Pike]

I was thinking that we could research SciMeth, rush Arms Race with the SGL, and take CSE and Electricity as our free techs.

At that point we'll also have options such as gifting the OCC Russians into the IA and seeing what free tech they get.

Assuming we can get Leonardo normally, just twelve turns of increased research in Angkor could hardly be worth an SGL.

We've just started Enlightenment and can switch without losing accumulated research.

I wasn't suggesting that we should take Washington with just the units now on boats. We should strip Spain and go in with all five galleons fully loaded.

But BTW, units on ships do heal if the ship moves, but they don't.

 

[vmxa]

I know they heal on boats, but they would be on the land in their borders, till we take the place.
I figured that Leo must be more than just a city boost for Greebly to even bring it up. That the problem with a new mod, not being familar with it and no easy way to find the info.

The editor is not reliable for some things and it is not always convient to drop what you are doing to load the save.

I think you got the right plan, so I got it.

 

[Greebley]

Ya, we can wait if there is a good wonder coming up. I am not yet familiar with what they can do.


I meant to ask what tech was next. Given that enlightment expires it seems worth waiting on. At the very least we lose production in most cities. The only reason I see for it is to get Democracy.

Interesting to know that we won't stay at 4 turns / tech or close in monarchy.

Oh and the armored car was call a hot(ch)kiss. A silly joke.

 

[barbslinger]

i have been USA-England since Friday night.

Capture Vitoria and Spain is destroyed.

Loved this. Most deserved @$$-kicking of the century.

I can play tomorrow morning. The gov switch is only 4 turns but we can do it at less % rate and use that cash to rush "what ever" we want. This game is already in the bag. Once we can build workers and settlers it gets more so.
Why not switch gov up? I was running 60% (after migrant worker build on solo game) to do 4 turn tech in democracy but that just leads to Space. Commie is next for us but the 1st tier techs can be traded for a lot of gold prior to NO trading coming up. I like the exploration option and show it to people watching. I'm a big fan of this mod and any CIV3 person should look at CCM.

Demo will be better after we get rails because of the barracks penalty so whether we go there or wait until Commie... either way.

Right now it is SURPRISE Portugal / Canada and I propose declaring on both simultaneously. It is going to be our continent IMO, the sooner the better and when settlers/workers come out on a tech to be researched we will put this game over the top. ~IMO workers are the best unit~

Let's talk and I'll play in the morn. Right now I can barely type.

 

[Northern Pike]

I'm not entirely certain what you're saying there about government changes, but the consensus we've reached is that democracy looks like too much trouble for a game we intend to win by military means, and that communism is a better choice. So that's still quite a few techs away, and the question won't arise during your round.

When exactly do we lose the ability to trade techs? Obviously this is important.

 

[vmxa]

Let's talk and I'll play in the morn. Right now I can barely type.

Ok, I will swap with you then. I doubt we want to declare on both just yet. We have no troops in the build queues right now. We have one stack, but it cannot cover every place.

You need to get some attackers to Braga in the next 2 or 3 turns and Sara Buri. They can cover each.

I would look to send a cannon and a knight type from the town NP mentioned to Braga area. They will never catch up to the stack.

Maybe try to get the WE in the area upgraded. I do not care that they are elites as leaders are not so important, but 3 attack is not good enough to protect the front.

A defender and an attacker to stop pillaging. Rush a boat from Valencia and stick Hussars frorm the area in the galleon to help invade Washington. Better yet one defender or even 2 and 2 Hussars. Sent the boats back to add the last unit they can hold.

12 units will have a shot, but probably will have to keep swaping the damaged ones out with the ones on Zag island. USA will have 6 or more settlers and 2 or 3 dozen crap units. Spears, archer, chariots nothing better.

They won't attack with the spears which will be about 2/3 of the garrison.

 

[vmxa]

Oh and the armored car was call a hot(ch)kiss. A silly joke.

I was trying to figure out what a hot kiss was, now I get it. Not an American unit, so did not readily come to mind.

 

[Civinator]

Interesting to know that we won't stay at 4 turns / tech or close in monarchy.

For example techcosts for “Printing Press” are 64, techcosts for the early era 3tech “Compound Steam Engine” (needed for railroads) is 120, later techs can cost up to 220.

Oh and the armored car was call a hot(ch)kiss. A silly joke.

Now, after finally understanding it completely, this was a good joke!

When exactly do we lose the ability to trade techs? Obviously this is important.

Yes it is. As a consequence of the experiences gained by this succession game, for the next version of CCM, I wrote it in the civilopedia for each tech concerned, that it cannot be traded.

As you don´t have this information for this game, I give you as a service the attached screenshot with the techs of era 3. All techs right from the green line cannot be traded. In the next CCM betatest version 1.5 even “Communism” cannot be traded, but in your game with version 1.4 you can. Of course all techs in era 4 cannot be traded, too.

Spoiler :

The gov switch is only 4 turns

Government switch in CCM is only two turns. That´s why I try to encourage you all to switch more frequently.

In CCM all civs have the trait known in standard C3C as "religious" to cut down the phase of anarchy. This is nothing new for C3C as Rhye did this in his mod long ago. New is, that in CCM there is another (mostly not so harsh) penalty: The possible additional loss of population. In CCM even to go to anarchy triggers a loss of population. The new form of government can trigger for some more advanced governments an additional loss of population points. There are some governments that don´t have that additional loss (monarchy, theocracy, despotism), so these governments in late game can be an interesting alternative, too. In CCM it can be an alternative to rush for a certain tech in democracy or republic and than to switch back to another government without warweariness and barracks, but you should have granneries (before they are going obsolete) or later hospitals in most of your cities, so the population loss can be compensated more quickly.

I'm a big fan of this mod and any CIV3 person should look at CCM.

Thank you very much for your kind words.

 

[Northern Pike]

Thanks very much--most helpful.

 

[Greebley]

A question I forgot to ask:

Since noone has mentioned UU I assume they don't exist?

This may have been answered already (I think vxma discussed ag wonders) but what is the first Agricultural wonder to get us a GA? We fortunately already have the single Industrial wonder so far.

Also I assume that the wonders that don't mention GA at all have no chance of triggering one - correct? Otherwise other wonders without traits wouldn't mention that they can trigger one.

Also someone asked what kind of units the US have. Well they don't have feudalism so no pikes. I assume that means defense 2 spears.

ThERat,
Can you also put the order of play in the first post? It is easier than trying to find the last time it was posted. I take it that vxma is up, but he swapped with Barbslinger who is playing today?

 

[barbslinger]

I'm not going to be able to play today so I need to return the swap. We have company coming and are going to Huntington Beach.

 

[Civinator]

Golden Age:

In CCM a Golden Age can only be triggered by Great wonders. If a unit is set to trigger it, this would be an error. The last unit that was disabled for triggering a GA in CCM is the Janissary in the CCM betatest v.1.5.

For triggering a GA in CCM three traits must be fullfilled by GWs. This can be done by different GWs, so if a GW is only hitting the last missing trait, the GA is triggered when the civ builds the last missing wonder.

In CCM v1.4 there is no GW that has especially the agricultural trait, as I think this trait is the strongest of all. In CCM v1.5 the GW Hanging Gardens will have the agricultural trait. So a GA for Indochina can only be triggered by one of the GWs in era 4, that trigger all traits. These GWs are UN, Eiffel Tower and the Internet (hope I haven´t missed one). There are some civs that have special GW that always trigger a GA for them (if these civs didn´t had one before). For example: Buckingham Palace, Zeus Statue, Arc de Triomphe, Brandenburg Gate, Kremlin, Libery Statue and a lot more. Indochina doesn´t have such a wonder as it is a mixture of several countries.

Unique units:

There are no special unique units in CCM as there are tons of different units (even with different stats according to the performance they did in history) and therefore nearly every unit is a unique unit - but none of them should be able to trigger a GA:

For example here are screenshots showing the techtree of era 4 for the US, Britain, Germany and for Russia:

Spoiler :

Techtree Era 4 (US):




Techtree Era 4 (UK):




Techtree Era 4 (Germany):




Techtree Era 4 (Russia):

As you can see, the techs enable different units with different stats. Per example a British Chieftain tank is better than a US M-60 (but more expensive), a US B-52 bomber is better than a British Vulcan, the US can build the Long Beach-Class with nuclear reactors, the British (and all others) can´t, the Germans don´t have heavy jetbombers in era 4 and so on.

There are also some autoproduced units that are heavier than the normal units but are only available for that civ in small numbers. They must be autoproduced as otherwise the human players and AI would only produce these units and this would distort the game. So for example there are some Tiger tanks for Germany in addition to the normal PzKpfw III (and later Panthers), some additional JS III tanks in addition to the T-34s for Russia and so on. For the US per example in WW II a special unit was created for CCM, that does a heavy strategic bombardement and also is a killer for fighters that want stop this unit: The escorted bomberraid done by Wotan49 and Vuldacon, autoproduced by the GW "USAAF" (only available for the US).



If there are questions of lurkers about CCM, I´m happy to answer them in the CCM-forum at CFC:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=352057

 

[vmxa]

I'm not going to be able to play today so I need to return the swap. We have company coming and are going to Huntington Beach.

Ok this is an I got it for real. Probably will not start till this evening.

BTW I lived in Huntington Beach, my ex was on some committe that sponsers the Miss Huntington Beach. I think it was called Women of Action. Lived in Garden Grove, Westminster, Aniheim Hills, Garden Grove, Beuna Park for decades.

 

[Whomp]

lurker's comment: Great show Gentlemen. This mod sounds absolutely fantastic and you are giving us a great treat by illustrating this game. For warmongers, it takes a lot of the advantages away like artillery and armies. As expected, I've found these to be overpowering while playing in the AOI SG. I also like how it takes some of the best features of CIV4 (the tech tree, emphasis on Wonders (big and small), culture bombs, less corruption etc,) and put it on this engine without all the extras we didn't like about Civ4. Again, great stuff and you've convinced me to DL the mod sometime this summer.

 

[Northern Pike]

Thanks for your comments, and congratulations on the Cup. Forty-nine years is a long wait.

 

[vmxa]

Just so everyone knows I finally actually loaded the save and played. A couple of false starts over the weekend as I tried to make a swap are history.

5 turns in, no real news. Bogged down in Sagres, the second city on the SE. They keep sending boats to bombard and troops to attack. I kill the troops, so they cannot attack. It was a 7 turn run just to get to Braga and more turns to get into Portugal, so I probably will not have cavs in my set on the front.

I should get a road to Ruscidae next turn to reduce the time a bit. Anyway after yesterday I wanted let everyone know I am playing. May get it done tonight. The boss lady is off getting her hair done, so she may interfer once she returns.

To the next player I am pretty sure I will be done before I go to bed.

 

[barbslinger]

Sounds good. Looks like I will get to put Portugal away.