Ravensfire's Con/CoL proposal

I’ve been busy lately (RL overload; plus all my free time has been spent watching the Tour de France) so I haven’t been following Demo Game events. I just glanced through the three competing constitutions (this one plus Strider’s & Nobody’s), and prefer this one of the three. I hope to do a detailed read of this over the weekend and then will post some thoughts.

However, one quick observation: I think the preamble and opening of this constitution (as well as the other two) needs real work. What is the purpose of the Demo Game? Why doesn’t the Constitution spell that out? Right now all three Constitutions contain gratuitous and legalistic mumble jumble rather than clearly defining what the Demo Game is and why we’re playing it.

For instance, we’ve been arguing about the lack of role play (and what “proper” role play consists of), but if this concept is so important, why isn’t it in the Constitution? How we roleplay doesn't have to be spelled out; just the fact that it's an expected part of the game.

All three Constitutions are great if we intend most of our role playing to focus on simulating the roles of governmental officials and poll-crazed citizens; and we actually do role play that to perfection (at least I hope we’ve been role playing!). But I gather people want something way beyond that (although it would be interesting to run a poll to see how much role playing people actually do want). Anyway, if this concept is central to the DG it must be front and center in the Constitution. Remember, the role of the Constitution is to define how we as citizens are to conduct our gameplay. Playing at Government is just one of the actions that we citizens undertake; it isn't the entirety of the Demo Game.

Ravensfire, this criticism aside, you’ve done some good work here. More comments later.
 
Another thing I found, Article I doesn't specify deputies... So you could be a deputy and elected official or more than 1 deputy.... I am not sure if this was intention or accident...

Article I. Multiple Offices
No person shall hold multiple elected positions simultaneously, nor have more than one accepted nomination at the commencement of the general election.
 
Bertie,

That's an interesting idea. Hadn't thought of that before.

BH,

Yup - that should be in there too. My bad.

-- Ravensfire
 
ravensfire said:
Look what's in the Constitution - the basics, the framework. Things that we shouldn't need to touch.

Sorry, there is one item in the Constitution which is not "the basics". It threatens to hold 19 of us hostage if 10 people agree with it. It is something which might be the best thing ever for the DemoGame -- or it could be a complete, unmitigated disaster. I am not willing to allow 1/3 of the people here to destroy the DG by refusing to remove this possible poison pill. I'm not willing to sacrifice the DG on an altar of sticking to principles which were decided before most of the people show up.

You should be able to deduce what I'm talking about. Put that in the CoL and I might consider dropping my objection.
 
DaveShack said:
Sorry, there is one item in the Constitution which is not "the basics". It threatens to hold 19 of us hostage if 10 people agree with it. It is something which might be the best thing ever for the DemoGame -- or it could be a complete, unmitigated disaster. I am not willing to allow 1/3 of the people here to destroy the DG by refusing to remove this possible poison pill. I'm not willing to sacrifice the DG on an altar of sticking to principles which were decided before most of the people show up.

You should be able to deduce what I'm talking about. Put that in the CoL and I might consider dropping my objection.

DS, I do, and I won't.

Sorry, that battle was fought, and fought, and fought again.

We'll fight it one more time, in proxy.

EDIT: Your main objection "principles which were decided before most of the people show up" is rather off. That's what the entire system is - principles that they buy into. People will be interested in this, in part, because it IS something different. Changing a principle like that in midstream WILL run people off. That's got to be hard to change, because people will leave over something like that.

Are you willing to risk losing citizens over a mere majority?

-- Ravensfire
 
0.3 posted.

Changelog:
  • Con/CoL renamed House to Assembly, change references to People to Assembly
  • Con F – added reference to local civic government by Governors
  • Con I – clarified wording to include deputies and use simpler language
  • CoL H.4 – clarified wording about deputies and vacancies – offer is required
  • CoL H.2 – changed requirement for DP to greater than ½, not just ½
Comments:
Some interesting ideas are out there, I'd like to see some more discussion on them first. In particular, Bertie's idea about some changes to the Preamble are interesting.

Oct, I left the Governors in the Legislature. Call it better reading, call it balance, call it keeping the control of the cities closer to the People. Or, just call it personal preference. If there's more people calling for it, might change.

DS, I left the Con. amendment stuff the same. I know you don't like it. Likewise, I cannot stand the idea of a majority, a simple majority, affecting the core rules of the Constitution. Let's see what others think. One comment though - look at the Constitution - it's pretty sparse in lots of places. The details are generally in the CoL. Only the really big things are in the Constitution.

I would suggest starting a seperate point about it, including your veiled reference. Let's thrash it all out. Again.

CG, the CoL always had the clause about deputies getting bumped up. I think you just missed it. I've changed it to make mandatory the offer of the office, not actually getting the office. The deputy can now simply and easily turn the offer down.

I'll be out all tomorrow - we'll see how the discussions go, and will update from there. In general, an idea that looks good to me get's included. One that I don't like, I will comment on, and see what happens.

-- Ravensfire
 
Black_Hole said:
Excellent...
I think that we should keep the senate in, we may later find some task to give them..

The best part is the DP pool, I may now actually run for president knowing I don't have to be the only Designated Player :goodjob:


I wonder - why not keep the lower threshold for approval by popular vote of the citizens, yet add an additional requirement that the Senate must ratify the change?
 
ravensfire said:
Are you willing to risk losing citizens over a mere majority?

Worst case, the 1/3+1 who want to stick with it even when it's going bad will be the only ones left. I'd rather have 1/2+1 stay around than 1/3+1.

And where did this "mere majority" thing come from? Everyone here should be equal, and have an equal voice. Being "merely" a majority is a term which demeans all the people in that majority, like they are somehow less important than the 10 or so people who called all the shots while the game was being set up.

Don't misunderstand me, I want to stay the course, for now. I'll :dance: if it works out and the game goes well. But 4 months from now if it's not working out, we'll be stuck in a suicide pact because you're making it possible for a few diehards to force the rest of us to go down with the ship.
 
uh...DS and ravensfire, mind actually saying what you are talking about. obvioiusly this is something you've guys have fought over before, but seeing that DG6 was my first DG, i have no clue what's going on. an explanation would be nice. :)
 
greekguy said:
uh...DS and ravensfire, mind actually saying what you are talking about. obvioiusly this is something you've guys have fought over before, but seeing that DG6 was my first DG, i have no clue what's going on. an explanation would be nice. :)
putting the 5BC requirements in the constitution
 
about the preamble thing: Strider posted a good thread a while back about describing the DemoGame. it sort of got lost, but we found a good description, written by zorven. maybe this could serve as the preamble. well, here it is (modified to include DG7 instead of DG4 and Conquests):

What is Game of Democracy VII?

When you play a game of Civilization III Conquests, you make all the decisions – where to build cities, what city improvements to build, who to attack. You are the sole decision maker. Now imagine that you are playing the game and 3 of your friends are sitting at the computer with you. All 4 of you are deciding together how to play the game. This is a democracy.

In Game of Democracy VII (Democracy Game, DemoGame), there are many people involved with making the decisions on how the game is played. Instead of all sitting at the same computer, we use the forums to discuss the game with each other. To manage many people playing the game, a government has been formed to provide a structured way for everyone to be involved in the decision making process. This government is much like real life. It has a Constitution, a Code of Laws, and elections to select Leaders that are responsible for managing certain aspects of the game. Continue reading and you will find all you need to know to participate in the DemoGame.
 
also, is there any chance you put an Information Office in there? you voted yes on the poll, yet i don't see it in your constitution or CoL. (unless i'm blind here)
 
greekguy said:
also, is there any chance you put an Information Office in there? you voted yes on the poll, yet i don't see it in your constitution or CoL. (unless i'm blind here)

I think that should be something done by a group of citizens - not done by force of a rule. I like the Info Office idea, but would prefer to see it completely outside the ruleset. Let the people just, well, do it!

-- Ravensfire
 
ravensfire said:
I think that should be something done by a group of citizens - not done by force of a rule. I like the Info Office idea, but would prefer to see it completely outside the ruleset. Let the people just, well, do it!

-- Ravensfire


I like that idea, that could work...
 
Black_Hole said:
putting the 5BC requirements in the constitution

..:thanx:..
 
Couple of changes I'm looking at:

First - modification to allow the first term to start as soon as we're ready, and last for less than a month.

Second - modification of preamble as Bertie suggested. It just seems cool. Maybe second para only?

Third - game session stuff. Require the DP in the Instruction Thread to post date, time, save to be used and format of the game session. Allow confirmation poll to challenge format. Allow DP to perform before the start all reversible actions. Explicitly state the DP may play as long as instructions, if present, are relevant. Explicitly state that any leader can, through TCIT, limit the length of the game session. Explicitly state that DP may unilaterally end the session. Create a CoC to allow for cases where DP does not show, or cannot continue - order is Pres, Military, FA, Trade/Tech.

Thoughts?
-- Ravensfire
 
ravensfire said:
Couple of changes I'm looking at:

First - modification to allow the first term to start as soon as we're ready, and last for less than a month.

Second - modification of preamble as Bertie suggested. It just seems cool. Maybe second para only?

Third - game session stuff. Require the DP in the Instruction Thread to post date, time, save to be used and format of the game session. Allow confirmation poll to challenge format. Allow DP to perform before the start all reversible actions. Explicitly state the DP may play as long as instructions, if present, are relevant. Explicitly state that any leader can, through TCIT, limit the length of the game session. Explicitly state that DP may unilaterally end the session. Create a CoC to allow for cases where DP does not show, or cannot continue - order is Pres, Military, FA, Trade/Tech.

Thoughts?
-- Ravensfire
looks good
 
This is going to be a huge shock to some people, but I'm strongly considering mandating that all game sessions be on-line. We allow the DP's to set the date/time of their game sessions, so why not require them to be on-line?

Thoughts?

-- Ravensfire
 
ravensfire said:
Third - game session stuff. Require the DP in the Instruction Thread to post date, time, save to be used and format of the game session. Allow confirmation poll to challenge format.

Also please the save at the end of the TC. Format means online/offline? I'm ok with mandating online sessions.

Explicitly state that any leader can, through TCIT, limit the length of the game session.

Fine, as long as it's within reason. We don't want too many 0-turn TC's.

Create a CoC to allow for cases where DP does not show, or cannot continue - order is Pres, Military, FA, Trade/Tech.

Could also be used in case there are not enough DP's in the pool to get through a term.
 
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