RB16 - The Renny Teamer

Yosh-RB said:
Nationalism by itself is not very helpful to us immediately
Taj Mahal (free Golden Age) is helpful. The ability to draft is helpful.

liberalism->(free)Nationalism ->economics for the free GM->mili trad -> gunpowder
Now you are thinking on the right path! A couple problems with your route, however:
1) We will have gunpowder next turn.
2) Economics will not help our economy (Free Market is very un-useful in team games like this when you have few cities and your allies are close to you.
3) Time is of the essence here. Check what units our allies have in their cities. Our AI rivals will have the same units. Unnecessary time we spend researching technologies (Economics, Printing Press, etc) is more time we allow our rivals to produce better units. Cossacks vs Longbowmen is :hammer:

We either save the GM from economics for later, or burn him to help out with nat'l/mili trad/gunpowder (not sure what he would help with)...
Great Merchants will help with Printing Press, then Replaceable Parts. If you research Education, they will help with Economics and then Printing Press...

The idea being that we have a Golden Age lined up for when we are ready to begin mass production of Cossacks - when we're ready, we switch over to Theo/Vassalage, trigger the GA when we come out of anarchy, and go to town!
Very nice! Both theology and vassalage together are not necessary. Barracks + Theo/Vassal= 6 exp. Barracks + Theo + Vassal= 8 exp. No negligible difference.

Last question - would it be worth it to send a unit towards the axis of evil to start causing trouble? My thinking behind it is that he could keep an eye out on what they're doing, perhaps (carefully) pillage, and if we're lucky, gain enough experience so that we can build West Point sooner rather than later...
Extending our sentinel net is never a bad idea. Doubt we'll have much success pillaging, as the AI has plenty of units to deal with 1 or 2 of ours. West Point requires a ton of experience and it is 400+ hammers to build (usually ~10-15 turns in your capital in this sort of game). Without a GE to rush it, it is hardly worth it. With Heroic Epic, you could have 5-7 Cossacks from your capital alone, instead.
 
Hmmm... I'd say that probably quickest way to Mili Trad is to finish up Gunpowder (1 turn as you said), liberalism -> Nationalism (free tech) -> mili trad

I don't know about the Taj Mahal... I think that hammers spent building that could go towards other pursuits - since we are Phi, it's not that hard to get up GP for a GA.

Would you say that there is a good point for bothering to build universities? Or should I more focus on econ structures/barracks/workers/settlers?

Roger on the Vassalage bid - however, I don't see much a point in drafting defensive units with Nationalism quite yet - When we get rifling would be the time to do it IMO

So, after discussion, here will be the goals for my turnset:

1) found 1-3 more cities (or start settlers on their way)
2) Research gunpowder, liberalism, nationalism, and start mili trad (time allowing)
3) Hook up dem horses!
4) pump out some workers and get some flood plains cottaged(?)
5) infra builds will focus on barracks (if not there), and econ buildings (unless you think that unis will be better)
6) Continue the GPP factory that moscow currently is - get as many GP as possible and pave the way for later GA's

I think I understand the strategy you want to follow Speaker; if you don't mind, I'll enumerate what I think it is:

Focus on Great Artist and GPP production so that newly captured cities can be bombed and thus decrease logistics strains. Beeline to mili trad and switch over to a full military industry with cossacks. Dominate the world, using our allies as shields, since we're in the "support" position.

That sound about right?
 
I'm actually thinking more along the lines of conquest, rather than domination, razing as we go, so we don't have to keep units back to defend. And I wouldn't stay in Caste System/Pacifism for much longer. Our cities will be woefully underdeveloped without the use of serfdom (2 turn roads vs 1 turn roads, etc) and we'll want to spread Taoism to all our cities, to then make best use of Theocracy and its +2 exp.

There must be a faster way to MT without spending a single turn researching it? ;)
(Not that your path is bad. But I can think of a faster one).
 
Speaker said:
I'm actually thinking more along the lines of conquest, rather than domination, razing as we go, so we don't have to keep units back to defend. And I wouldn't stay in Caste System/Pacifism for much longer. Our cities will be woefully underdeveloped without the use of serfdom (2 turn roads vs 1 turn roads, etc) and we'll want to spread Taoism to all our cities, to then make best use of Theocracy and its +2 exp.

There must be a faster way to MT without spending a single turn researching it? ;)
(Not that your path is bad. But I can think of a faster one).

You sly, sly person you! Aight... so instead of actually bothering to RESEARCH mili trad, we'll keep stocking the GA's and then burn them to get it - did I get that right? :)

So then, our modified research path would be: gunpowder->liberalism->Nationalism(free)->mili trad (from Great Artists)

This is gonna be nuts - I love it!
:crazyeye:

Yeah serfdom might be worth it -- how many workers do we currently have? I think that probably I'll stay in paci/caste for my turns, and let the next person decide on the switch, if we're ready; I'll do the missionary/infra thing... for now, then :hammer:
 
Yosh-RB said:
You sly, sly person you! Aight... so instead of actually bothering to RESEARCH mili trad, we'll keep stocking the GA's and then burn them to get it - did I get that right? :)

So then, our modified research path would be: gunpowder->liberalism->Nationalism(free)->mili trad (from Great Artists)

This is gonna be nuts - I love it!
:crazyeye:
You are very close.....but it's not quite as simple as that. Great Artists will research Nationalism for us now...they will not take Military Tradition (if we take Nationalism for free with Liberalism), but rather Printing Press....
 
Speaker said:
You are very close.....but it's not quite as simple as that. Great Artists will research Nationalism for us now...they will not take Military Tradition (if we take Nationalism for free with Liberalism), but rather Printing Press....

Ok... so we take Nationalism with the Artists, then take Mili trad with liberalism?
 
Yosh-RB said:
Ok... so we take Nationalism with the Artists, then take Mili trad with liberalism?
:goodjob:

It will take some very tricky timing to get all three of them out before we can finish liberalism. I'm not generally sure I'm going to make it without slowing down liberalism until the last two turns. But I think the next two players are up to the challenge! But don't be afraid to slow down liberalism if you have to!
 
Speaker said:
:goodjob:

It will take some very tricky timing to get all three of them out before we can finish liberalism. I'm not generally sure I'm going to make it without slowing down liberalism until the last two turns. But I think the next two players are up to the challenge! But don't be afraid to slow down liberalism if you have to!

I'm not as familiar with the Quick games as I am with Normal and Epic... How many turns (roughly) is it going to take for liberalism? We have 2 GA's already don't we, and gunpowder is but 1 turn away...
 
Speaker said:
No, we don't have any GAs. I built two GS, and used them for Education on my second to last turn. My guess is Liberalism should take somewhere around 15-20 turns. Maybe closer to 15.

ahh gotcha... well it will probably take more, since one of the first things I'll do is shift our specialists around to emphasize GA's - we'll need them for nat'lism and also a couple spare ones for "rest/resupply" cities as we advance...
 
I'm already liking this game a lot! Looks like we'll be able to gain a lot of insight into the game from Speaker!

I was thinking you were looking at gaining Nationalism from three GA's and MT from Liberalism. Very crafty.

I believe when I looked at the save last night Moscow was already set up for GA production.

On infrastructure I'm thinking only the basics. Barracks definitely, with a forge if we have time. Possibly a granary to get cities up faster. I don't really see a reason to build libraries as it appears we won't need to go past MT. I'm not used to quick games (or starting this late in era) so am unsure how the AI's research. Will we need to bother after MT?

BTW, are we playing Emperor? Forgot to check last night.

I'll PM Bede.
 
Methos said:
On infrastructure I'm thinking only the basics. Barracks definitely, with a forge if we have time. Possibly a granary to get cities up faster. I don't really see a reason to build libraries as it appears we won't need to go past MT. I'm not used to quick games (or starting this late in era) so am unsure how the AI's research. Will we need to bother after MT?

Good point - I was thinking that we'd beeline to State Property (Communism) after MT, but there might not be a point to it if the game is gonna be so short.

Do you think we'll have time or a need to build any econ infrastructure? If we aren't going to research after MT, then we can just put science to 0% and live off loot from razed/captured cities. We will likely still incur a deficit, but if we balance it right, we should be able to win before our econ tanks too badly
 
Methos said:
I'm already liking this game a lot! Looks like we'll be able to gain a lot of insight into the game from Speaker!

Possibly a granary to get cities up faster.

Definately learning alot from Speaker here, I would not have considered pumping out all those specialists so early.

Cities found with a Granary in the renaisance (sp), check out the pic of Moscow.

I wonder how does the AI do with these late starts? better or worse than with an ancient start? I just played my first start other than ancient the other day, veeerrry interesting.
 
ooo something I just thought of... are Ancient era wonders available in later starts?

Why not just chop ourselves an Oracle? We have marble, so it wouldn't take long at all...
 
I think you can only build the wonders from the previous era, so no ancient wonders.

You can build national wonders and Versailles.
 
got home, got the new drive installed and here I am!

Why don't you drop me last in the roster, Speaker? That w should give me an opportunity to do more than speed read the last two pages.
 
okey dokey so here goes - for the record, my first SG turnlog!

Our research path is pretty clear: get to MT ASAP. To do this, we're going to generate as many Great Artists as possible while researching liberalism. We use the artists to grab Nationalism before Liberalism comes in, then use the free tech from liberalism to grab MT. Infra-wise, I will focus on barracks and forges. Novgorod and Rostov will have workers out in the next 4 and 1 turns respectively. Coupled with earlier workers built, I think we will have enough to construct the roads and resource improvements we need.

Inerited Turn(0): I take a look around the fledgeling empire, taking note of things. St. Petersburg will be a fantastic military unit factory when it grows up - iron, marble, loaf o' bread, marble, etc... I note that our GPP factory (Moscow) is already setup for artists by the dozen - wow! 6 artists + Phi + Pacifism = 54 GPP/turn! Speaker, as always, has done a consummate job of setting things up, so I move on to my first turn.

IBT: Unfazed by the river and woods that our explorer is camped in, Toku decides to take a crack at him with a longbow. The result: Toku is short one longbow! Our explorer is badly hurt (.6), so I leave him fortified in the forest to heal.



1150 AD (1) - Gunpowder comes in and I set our sights on Liberalism, which is due in 35 turns. Our allies haven't started on it yet, and I expect this will be much less as our population grows and improvements are finished.

Tokugawa's doing some scouting also it seems; I let the explorer be since it can't do any harm to us, and we are back enough where I'm not worried about any information he will get from it.

I start our longbow near Paris on a path into Monty's lands for intel purposes - who knows, maybe we can catch some decent pillaging? I've outlined the projected path for sneakiness in the SS:



I move some workers around and start the Iron mine near St. Petersburg; I figure that getting that city's production boosted is first important before doing more roads, and we have other workers around to build roads. I start a gold mine near moscow - when that's done we can drop luxuries OR allow some cities to grow. Plantations are also being built, so the happy problem will be short-lived... until WW starts to grow.

Rostov is started on a forge, to be followed by a barracks. I set the worker near there to build a mine on the nearby hill; I debated starting a cottage on the floodplain, but decided that could wait until the mine was operational.

1175 AD (2): The first of our great Nationalist Artists is born one Homer... Not a very Russian Name, so I rename him Nicholas Rimsky-Korsikov - a great RUSSIAN composer! Born in the 1800's, Korsikov (sp?) was a mid-to-late Romantic era composer, and since Romantic era music was all about NATIONALITY, well it just seemed too apropo

Liberalism drops to 13 turns after our allies begin research on it... we might have to slow it down a bit, since we will get our second GA in 4 turns, and our third ~7-10 turns after that.

1200 AD (3): Monty's got some x-bowmen and caty's roaming the French countryside... my longbowman has a greater mission, however, and passes them up.




IBT: Our explorer is attacked and killed by Toku's Samurai... hopefully he doesn't have many of those yet, and can't severely threaten Lizzie to our North

1225 AD (4): Worker finished in Novgorod, started on a forge. Gold hooked up near Moscow, which allows me to fire 2 Artists in favor of allowing Moscow to grow in 1 turn. I realize that this delays our push somewhat, but the extra pop point will allow yet another artist to be hired in Moscow, decreasing the overall time IMO. Also, spices are hooked up, giving yet another happy point. Worker near Moscow starts the road towards the horses

1250 AD (5): We're now at half a million souls! Yippee! The worker that finished the spices starts on a road towards the north, to expedite future expansion in that direction.

Since Moscow was set to grow in 2 turns, I MM it to grow in 1... we'll have 2 additional GA's pumping points out for us next turn!

1275 AD (6): Begin some cottaging near Rostov on a FP - we'll need SOME income before we start pillaging and plundering! I MM Moscow again - it is now back up to 63 GPP/turn! As soon as we get some more luxuries hooked up, Moscow is set to grow again in 1(!) turn.



Another worker is dispatched on the Road to Horses

1300 AD (7): Iron is hooked up, St. Petersburg finished barracks and moves to forge.

1325 AD (8): Thespis is born in Moscow... Now I respect Thespis' works and all (I think...), but Thespis is not a RUSSIAN name... so he gets renamed to Peter Ilych Tchaikovsky. P.I.T was a RUSSIAN composer, also of the Romantic era, and guess what? He also wrote music using Russian <i>Singspiel</i>, which is German for "Folk Music" - a major influence of Romantic era music (which we have earlier established has proper Nationalistic roots). Liberalism is due in 6 turns, and we are due to get our 3rd GA in 4 turns... the only thing I ask is that the next player give that GA a suitably RUSSIAN name!

St. Petersburg is set to grow into unhappiness (due to no military unit), so I MM it to prevent growth. Incidentally, it cuts Forge time down to 5 turns. Unfortunately, I have to reduce science to 40%, since we had no money left and were still at a deficit. Liberalism increases to 7 turns once again... the next couple turns should see us able to pull it back up, as cottages and other factors provide more income.

1350 AD (9): Quiet turn - workers continue building roads and such. Our longbowman enters Monty's territory - if all is clear, I'll see if I can pillage his iron heh heh heh. Science bumped back up to 50% with new cottage income

1400 AD (10): Our intrepid longbowman stumbled - literally - on Tenochtitlan! Fortunately, he's in a forest, so hopefully he can be extracted without loss.

Sacre Bleu!!! The French have planted a city near our horses!!! I don't know how good the AI is with trades in Alliance type games, but hopefully we'll be able to get them once he connects them; by the time we get there, the borders will likely have expanded - espectially since he's building a theatre in there... GRRR!



I leave the workers awaiting orders for the next player.

Nothing too too big to do except make sure we got those GA's and the horses... 1/2 aint bad in baseball, is it? :(

Hopefully there will be some way around this.

Finally, an overview of the Russian Empire - not much has visibly changed from last time.



LAST of all, the SAVE!
 
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