RBC2 - Mesopotamia Phoenicians

I forgot that editing the last post in a thread doesn't bump the thread or register as "activity" on this board so "bump".

Edit: I just noticed something rather interesting.... The Tribal Council tech we learned on Speaker's turn offers a better government: Tribal Council. All the AI are in it and it never occured to me that we WERENT in it or to look until I noticed on the pic I uploaded it said Despotisim.

Maybe it was discussed somewhere I overlooked and it was decided TC wasn't worth revolting to. It offers less unit support (one less per city) and still has the tile penalty, but corruption and waste are less and allows 3mp.

As we have been slogging along for roughly 35 turns post TC acquisition still in despotisim, I'd suspect that it isn't worth bothering to revolt to now for sure since we can have Oligarchy in probably 15-20 turns. Just thought I'd bring this up.

-Maniac
 
Wow! Nice Round Todd ! With the leader we are almost assured at least 3 wonders. This is Demi-God right! :eek: :D

As the government swap I think Monarchy is the way to go if we have the economy and the extra happiness of the additional MP. But given our smallish sized cities two MP's may be enough. The question is can we avoid military action all together or do we have to take it to the Babs and hope to avoid the DogPile?

Scientific Leaders are a big boost. Make libraries and researching quickly a bigger priority for sure.

Hotrod
 
As far as TC I didn't even see it as an option :blush: The Civilopedia continues to be a wealth of knowledge. I'm not sure if I like the fact that almost everything changes with Scenarios. Makes playing them more interesting but unfortunetly things like TC and curraghs get missed.
 
Well, before you say that Monarchy is the way to go, remember waste and corruptiuon in Oligarchy = Republic. Two MP should be plenty, as right now 2MP has us OVER our support limit (which will drop by like 7 if we change to TC and by like :eeek: 14 if we swap to Oligarchy/Monarchy) Right now we are getting eaten alive by waste and corruption. Our colossus building city would lose 4 of 11 shields for example and its only like 4 squares from the capital.

It looks to me that what we are doing right now ammounts to a gambit in this scenareo. We have almost NO infrastructure cept for one burrial mound and a couple graineries. Militarily I'm worried. We don't have much. I tried to address this but really couldn't because our production is SO low. Warriors are going to be TERRIBLE city defenders because they are 2-1-1. ie. the ATTACKING warrior has the advantage (also of note is that the standard foot barb is 2-2-1).

We have a whole THREE TG's, 2 Archers, and one non replacable conscript horsie. All but our starting 3 citties are defended by a lone warrior, and we have 5 warriors out scouting, 3 of whom are at least 20 turns from home. If we got dogpiled..... Well, we wont... YET. We are the tech leaders so wed found embasies and buy friends. I am, however, surprised NO one has come demanding anything yet, or even worse (that IS the Hammer over there afterall). I'm sure they will soon..... BTW the more I think about TG's the more I think they are a bad unit. Your only decent early defender costs 50% more than everyone elses but offers NO extra defense (YIKES!) Immagine if NM's cost 30 sheilds and were a 2-2 unit and you have a reasonable comparison.....

We really need one city, or even better, 2 cities dedicated to building nothing but military for a long while imho. Rub is definately right. We can't hold this lead forever with what our civ looks like right now. maybe we can hold it for 30 turns, but once they catch us, we'll be left in the dust. We pulled 3 techs from huts in 10 turns and made one obscene steal (HBR at last for The Wheel @ 2nd) and we barely have more of a lead now than when the turn began despite doing 100% defacit research.
 
Definetly think that 2 MPS are enough and agree that Monarchy may not be the best choice. I am not a fan of pop rushing in later stages. I also think our TC is weak for the value and when the choice came to build TC or archers I choose the archer.

It is a gambit to push on wonders but I think that is the name of the game here. Given the "Wonder" victory condition how could you not make wonder building and 100% research a priority. The new advent of Scientific leaders makes research all the more a priority. Pre-Conquests wars were often fought soley for Leader fishing and not just to build Armies.

OT: The new Leader structure and abilities may change how games are played and would definitely make AW games more of a challenge. If you can't rush wonders with you leader what good are they. An AW game without leaders is difficult at best just see Sirian's report from the China AW game at RBD. It was leader poor.

Swapping now to Military builds solely to claim more land now from Babs is a good Idea IMO and if we can maintain a strong core we can continue to be a front runner in tech. 5 or 6 strong size 6-12 cities can win this game. Make all cities as productive as possible and prioritize core cities for wonders and the outer cities for military.

Hotrod
 
During the Beta, I played that Conquest about 20 times, and won with every Civ at least on Emperor, so I feel qualified to give some clarifications:

On governments: Despotism in Demigod means a city that is 6 tiles away from the Capitol has 50% Corruption and Waste (OCN not exceeded) - this is strikingly more than on Emperor, but about the only real difference. Tribal Council is a little better, but this could mean up to 6 turns (out of about 130!) in Anarchy....NEVER do that unless you're REL.
Monarchy is a little better than Oligarchy, but comes several expensive Techs later - I really suggest to switch to Oligarchy ASAP, and stay there.

And an important point: You may have Tech parity right now, but the 2nd and 3rd era Techs are far more expensive...and there are 3 SCI Civs out there, and Philosophy! This means all the AI Civs will be about 1000VPs ahead of you because of that later. No Techs above Navigation and the Companion Infantry Tech are needed for you (unless you miracously manage to get Horses), but the VPs are...
Consider all 7 WoW together only give about 3500 VP, and you'll notice how important Conquest VPs will be.

Note 'Wonder Victory' doesn't mean the Civ with the most WoW wins, but the score leader when the last WoW is built - I won on Demigod with one single wonder, and I lost on Emperor before I realised that with 5 out of 7...

The Colossus will trigger your GA, are you sure you want that still in Despotism? I usually skipped it because of that, it's the cheapest WoW anyway.
 
I don't feel like I have enough information to give a good opinion on governments.

I do think we will need to go hammer on the Babylonians (or north to get horses) fairly soon. A military build-up is almost definitely called for.

I wish the intro explained these things a bit better -- finding them out on the fly is a bit disconcerting. Maybe I should resolve myself to a more in-depth Civilopedia examination at the beginning of each scenario.

Arathorn
 
I wish the intro explained these things a bit better -- finding them out on the fly is a bit disconcerting. Maybe I should resolve myself to a more in-depth Civilopedia examination at the beginning of each scenario.
Click to expand...

Ditto !
 
So far so good, and it's nice to see our tech lead parlay itself
into a sci GL.

Hey! It seems the *Babylons* intercepted and read my city thoughts --
"The spot about 5 NE of Tyre which catches both stone and incense might be good,
otherwise East of Tyre is some stone and ivory together." Akkad is smack on top
of the first and Uruk near the second. Akkad must be ours -- the question is WHEN.

(Actually... ask yourself these questions right now. i) would you choose to attack
right now if you were playing? ii) If Babylon demanded tribute, what would you do?
Don't continue reading until you answer these for yourself :p )

We're on top with Victory Points, ok with power, near lowest on score. Mil is
avg compared to all but Sumerians. We have 3 TG's, 11 warrs, 2 archers, 1 horse.
We have the Colossus due in 9, cool! Artemis can be rushed now. Todd recommended
shifting Colossus to capital and shifting Ugarit to Zeus (due there in 27-31)
Normally I would take the bird in the hand, but... no other civ has even started
any wonder?? That makes the swap not-too-risky. Which city would do better from
the Colossus bonus? The capital, slightly, due to corruption.

Great Wonder costs:
150: Colossus, Mausoleum
220: Lighthouse (most advanced tech), Hanging Gardens (3 techs needed)220
280: Zeus
300: Pyramids (2 more techs needed)
340: Artemis

[0] 2100 BC - Artemis rushed
[1] 2070 BC - It arrives, cap switches to Colossus after Ugarit to Zeus.
Every city will have a culture expansion in 4 turns, woo!
Babylon has Code of Laws, but every civ is about 5 techs behind. We're only
3 turns from CoL, so we'll wait.
[2] 2040 BC - Quiet
[3] 2010 BC - Babylon demands communications with the Egyptians?!? Their
military is no larger than ours. The prudent thing to do is cave in.
But... they demanded on the wrong watch!! I DEFY them to declare war!
They do?! Bring it on!

:hammer:

We move three units next to Akkad. We have almost no troops for this war.
Our main hope is that we can do some dmg and they won't reach us with any
kind of stack within 8-10 turns. (Mycenae shows up with CoL, and we're due next)
We pop a hut that gives us... angry warriors.

[4] 1980 BC - We start Oligarchy next, as it will get us first to new Era and
the HG tech. Epic works would be good too.
Outside Akkad, archer takes out a Bowmen with no dmg.
The horsemen wounds the second bowmen, but must retreat. Tyrian Guard goes
up against this hurt bowmen and...

GOLDEN AGE!!! (for us, that is :goodjob: )

Sure it's in depotism, but it will further accelerate our wonder race and
help with the war. I rearrange all tiles to try to get each one using a shield.

[5] 1950 BC - The Temple of Artemis causes a massive border expansion all around :P
At Uruk we defeat one bowmen with out superior TG. Some more units move up.
Out East, our scouting warrior sees a *warrior*-settler pair move by on OPEN
ground. SmmmmmACK! Two workers, though they may never reach home.

[6] 1920 BC - Alas, the bowmen returns fire on the warrior. We actually see him
redline, but then our warrior dies. That means the Babs are in a GA now too.
(Although, better now than later, imho) Our other western scout finds a hut with...
more angry fighters.

A TG vs Bowman ends up with... Uruk autorazed! :hammer:
We also hit a warrior out in the open with one of our warriors and win.

(Sir, doesn't it worry you that six of your eight cities are undefended?
And the other two have reg warriors in them? Hmmm... you're right. Order
up more paper cutouts IMMEDIATELY!)

[7] 1890 BC - Mycennaens start the Colossus. That's the first AI to try something.
Alas, we have Colossus due in 6, and Zeus in 11 :P

Trouble behind Acco, and a newly built TG from Byblos must run there.

(IBT) Our scout horse is attacked by a warr and retreats. Then a bowman comes
to finish him off, but dies, promoting our conscript to reg :lol:

[8] 1860 BC - The rest of the world is finally doing some trading. Most are behind
3-4 techs instead of 5 now. They lack contact with Egypt :P

[9] 1830 BC - Our culture via Artemis expands the captured city Akkad and we pull the
incense in range. (Wow, what a great warmonger wonder :P )

We take out a warrior, and can now see Ninevah not far away.
This scares Hammurabi - he'll offer Eridu, Samarra, AND Ellipi for peace!!
(He's insulted by size 1 Eulbar alone, which means it's on a hidden resource)

(IBT) A bowman takes out a warrior but is exposed. Three units head toward Ninevah.

[10] 1800 BC - We lose an archer, but kill two bowmen. In the process we are looking
VERY red and hurt.

Our offense is gassed and their reinforcements are arriving. It's time for
peace. Although they 'doubt they'll give' a larger city, they will still part
with the three smaller ones, so we take Ellipi, Eridu, Samarra, and a worker
for peace. Of course, they're all size 1, no defenders. 8-\ But... they'll
have culture and an expansion in five turns :P

One last movement up there shows we were just two squares from Babylon,
invisible over the hill! We had just 3 warrs and a TG, so it wouldn't have
fallen, but no doubt this was a fear inducer.

Notes for next leader:
- Ugarit is only 'sad' city requiring 10% lux. Get a MP unit there ASAP.
It's in "food deficit" mode due to the GA shield bonus. Don't let the city
shrink, but do continue to get max shield output for Zeus and free rax.
Gah... speaking of which, I change the rax due soon in Akkad to
- Acco has a barb camp near it and a TG healing waiting to take it out
- Try to build a settler to re-found the ruins of Uruk!! I just swapped Berytus
to settler for this, although he might very well want to found a city in
the gap towards Samarra in order to connect those cities. Although corrupt,
Samarra has two wheats and is on river. Would make a nice FP rush spot.
Hmmm, connecting the empire to them is key. So I put Sidon onto a settler
too (for Uruk ruins)
- Oligarchy is due next turn with our corrupt scientist. I would probably ignore
that since we're in GA, and wait for Monarchy. Note next turn we'll be alone in
the Iron age. :D
- As for our next research project, it's up to our next leader. Epic Works, Monarchy,
and City Planning are all good choice. Crank up research to near max next turn.
- Our victory points shot way up to 1700, compared to Medes 345. Our culture also is
through the roof. Careful though, our power and military are still lousy!

RBC2-MesopotamiaPhoenicia-1800bc.jpg


RBC2 1800BC Save File

Speaker <-- UP
Hotrod <-- On deck

Good luck, and with the Babylonian blight decimated, do well! :hammer:
Charis

PS I played during, and hence missed, the four posts above. Had to chuckle at
Todd's worry that we would get beat up on, and... sheesh, Doc, we can lose this
scenario on score with all wonders and a monstrous VP lead???? Rasperries at that
design, but our future leaders will have to keep this in mind. Our score stinks atm.

EDIT -- And regarding the 'poorness' of 3.3.1 - it was precisely the 3 attack that less us eat the Babs 2-def Bowmen for lunch.

PPS *100* turns to go, that's *IT*
 
we can lose this
scenario on score with all wonders and a monstrous VP lead????
Click to expand...

Don't worry, was talking about VP score, of course.

But the VPs from 5 Wonders aren't enough when Babylon overrruns half of Medea and Sumeria as well as finishing the Tech Tree while you just have the useful second era Techs, and then Hammurabi builds the Lighthouse before you even get to Navigation...don't forget all Civs except for Phoenicia spend half of the game with the 4 uprisings.
Anyway, as long as there are no AI wars, you can win in builder's style.
 
Answers i) no, and ii) I'd tell em to blow it out their arse (we were avg compared to them so no way I'd cave). I must say I'm rather impressed by how well we did though. The 1 city capture doesn't surprise me, but that we now own about half of Babylon does. Prolly shouldn't be surprised, thats pretty much what allways happens on one of Charis' turns :).

Edit: as to the usefulness of the extra attack on the TG, I've no doubit it's useful. Those are what I built on my turn because they had the best offense and best defense so I couldn't see building anything else (especially as we had NO defensive units at the time i inherrited). I just think that for 60 shields I'd rather have 2 archers and a spear than 2 TG's. I am, as allways, open to the possibility that this is faulty thinking however :crazyeye:
 
It- Great setup by Charis. Looks like I will be in coast mode. From cities is 73. Babylon demands we move our troops or declare war. Uh, ok Hammi, the war did end last turn. Start City Planning, due in 6 at max to have a wonder to be working on when ours finish.

1770BC (1): Our victorious army moves back toward home.

IT- Mycenae demands contact with the Egyptians. They are so far away and I refuse to break the Egyptian monopoly for them, especially on their turn, when they can trade it around. I have no fear that they'll be able to cross the sea and hurt us.

1740BC (2): Finally sack that barb camp south of Acco. Colossus is due next turn in Tyre, so I mm a bit for more gold.

1710BC (3): Tyre Colossus => Aqueduct (prebuild for HG). Sidon Settler => TG. Byblos TG => TG.

1680BC (4): MP arrives in Ugarit, so the lux tax drops to 0. Start moving some troops to the north in case Mycenae decides to try anything.

IT- Captured cities expand borders.

1650BC (5): Nothing much.

1620BC (6): Babylon moves 8 Bowmen into our territory. Hope they're not planning anything because we can't repel that firepower. Bertyus Settler = Courthouse (vetoable). Trade Egypt the first-tier Cuneiform for 51 gold and they are now polite. City planning is due next turn so I drop science.

1590BC (7): Finish City Planning and start Monarchy at max, due in 7. Found Kition in the ruins of what I guess to be Uruk. Tyre switches to Hanging Gardens, due in 11, but will take a bit longer after the GA ends.

1560BC (8): Curraghs are scouting around Mycenae watching for troops leaving on boats. None seen so far.

IT- Medea signs a MA with Mycenae against us. They must have traded something for it. I think Medes is way too far away to do any damage to our real cities, although the Babylonian lands might be in danger.

1530BC (9): Zeus finishes in Ugarit. Starts Palace as prebuild for Mausoleum or Pyramids (which Mycenae has now started). Build an embassy for 37 gold in Hattusas (Hittites) to try to improve relations. Hattusas is size 1, building a settler due in 6 :smoke: and is running 100% science with a garrison of 2 spears and only a palace built. What has the AI been doing? Build an embassy in Ur (Sumeria) for 34 gold, protected by 4 Enkidu warriors and an archer, building a spearman, has built a barracks, running 60% tax and 40% science, size 2. Sumeria is now polite with us, while the Hittites are still annoyed. Trade Astronomy to Sumeria for Epic Works Projects and 9 gold. Astronomy is a dead end tech with no wonder, so it's no skin off our back. Ugarit switches to worker housing (increases shields by 50%) before starting another wonder, though this is vetoable if need be. Tyre is switched to the Pyramids, due in 14. This situation should be watched carefully.

1500BC (10): Found Carthage to the north, pulling in horses with the border expansion, and consolidating our empire a bit, although there is still a large gap. MP is on its way. Gems next to Acco are now hooked up, so we have 4 attached luxuries and incense should be hooked up within the next 10 turns.

Conclusion- VP lead is now 2895 to 450. Have caught up in regular score, now in second place. Government change after the GA is over will be a big help I suspect. Sorry about the mini dogpile. Mycenae will talk peace, but wants something for it. I'll leave that up to Hotrod. From Cities is now 95, an increase of 22, or 30%. Oops, wrong game. :p Unfortunately we are not benefiting from the Colossus bonus of yet. Our income should shoot up with a switch to monarchy. Keep building up our military and we should win by a landslide. Have fun!

RBC2 - 1500BC
 
I know I am over but I am posting from WORK so I will not be playing tonight. Will definitely play tomorrow.

Hotrod
 
1500 BC (0): We are still in despotism but Monarchy will be known in 3 turns. As soon as the Golden Age runs out I will revolt if I think we can still ge the pyramids. IF not we have to let that complete first. It is due in 13 and we can't waste turns in anarchy.

1470 BC (1): The "war" continues but I don't foresee any fighting on my watch we don't have the units to make a move on the Medes. A few TG's maybe we can take a city but we won't have the reinforcement to make sure we don't lose the cities we leave. Monarchy in 2 turns. Not sure if Worker housing is a bet cheaper option than the already started courthouses. Will check out Ugarit once the Worker House completes.

1440 BC (2): Monarchy next turn. FYI hops are 2.4.1 Continue moving TG's to the front lines. More civs start on Pyramids. We are 11 turns away but I can't see how far Maceyans are because we are at War. Well considering that Dendra is on the coast I think it is far behind us. And the Pyramids are going to be ours. I will still wait for the GA to complete and then rethink our Pyramid postion.

1410 BC (3): Learn Monarchy and start on Mathematics for the Moseouleum. I didn't revolt. Okay someone has learned the last 2 techs and we have uprisings. And the barbs are nasty, they are 3.2.2 Mounted fighters and 16 per camp. Trade Construction the Hittites for 100 gold. Myceane picked up Alchemy as a free tech, time to talk peace. We give up Polytheism he gives us 100 gold. Will start on HG once the Worker housing is completed.

1380 BC (4): Sidon builds a TG starts Worker Housing. Byblos builds TG starts another. Our Golden age is over. Pyramids are due in 9 turns. Will wait for the revolution. We are up Monarchy and city Planning over Hittites, Sumerians and Mycenae. No 2frs so hold off on picking up Alchemy.

1350 BC (5): Math is now due in 6 turns. Medes units are approaching from the north. Samarra is in trouble with only 1 warrior in the town.

1320 BC (6): Ugarit builds worker housing and starts on HG. Due in 22 turns. Our city in the north is burned to the ground. Our warrior is killed by a conscript warrior. TG's are on th way.

1290 BC (7): Dial up the Medes and he will take peace for 120 gold. I will try to take a few of his units with the new TGs in the area and see if he'll talk then. Following the end of the GA we have 11 turns on the Pyramids. Investigate our closest Competetor. Build an embassy in Mycenae. Investigate Dendra for 64 gold and see Pyramids are due in 24 turns. [dance]. :hmm: okay the GA is over we have a 13 turn lead over the Mycenae. I bite and go for a revolution. Check for whip possibilities but there are none. [dance] we draw 4 turns.

1260 BC (8): Kill a conscript warrior and promote a TG to elite.

1230 BC (9): Kill an archer move a few TGs.

1200 BC (10): Promote another TG at Carthage. Kill an archer near Elipi. We will be a monarchy in 1 turn. Incence are online and we have 5 native luxuries. Egypt is still unknown to everyone but they will pay all there gold to meet her. Medes will talk peace but it will cost us, he also just picked up Monarchy will trade our around. Mycenae has Monarchy too :( can't give him Monarchy for Alchemy. Holding onto city planning for now. Trade Monarchy to Sumerians for all his gold 136, better to us then to Mycenae or Medes. Poly a worthless tech now to Egypt for he 70 gold. Hittites only have 34 gold so I hold onto it for a bit longer.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-1200BC.zip

We have 562 gold, research is on Math and we are sitting at 2995 VP. We are at the half way point turn 80. Only 4 wonders remain and we can build 2 of them the third can start as soon as Math completes.
 
I broke our monopoly on Egyptian contact to get Iron Working, Alchemy, and some cash. And we're a Monarchy. Hmmm...forests give 3 shields in this scenario. Interesting.

Gained and lost no ground in the war with Medes. At one point, though, Babylon declared against us because of an MPP. We couldn't see this due to lack of embassies and it was reasonably unexpected. The southern border with Babylon is safe, but the north is a bit dicey.

We did get a MGL in 1080 BC. He's now an army moving towards our core to be filled with companion infantry hopefully soon. After Mathematics came in, I started on Military Training to get us better troops.

I had a horrible year in 1040. Bab bowmen attacked tirian guards fortified in a town across a river and mowed them down like there was no tomorrow. 3 *regular* bows attacked an elite tirian, a vet tirian, and a vet warrior all fortified, all across a river, and lost 1 hp total. OUCH. We lost a city to Babylon. Sigh.

Also, after the Pyramids completed in 1020, Dendra of the Myceneans completed Hanging Gardens in a cascade. We're going to get the Mausoleum next turn, though.

Beyond that, companion infantry/swordsmen and aqueducts should be the orders of the day. WE're still comfortably ahead in VPs and need only avoid stupidity or overreaching to not lose.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/rbc2-1000bc.zip

Arathorn
 
I see it. It id in queue after RBC3a. Sounds like its all pretty much going according to plan. A little conquest and the Lighthouse should be enough to end this I'd wager.
 
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