RBC3c - Ancient Mediterranean Mayhem - Roma

Guys, we've done our best, but I must say, I don't think it's winnable from this point.

There's 30 turns left in the game. We're at 18/32, with 6,144 points. Persia is at 19/39 with 10,319 points. Winning the tiebreaker is not going to happen. So, we'll need domination in the next 30 turns to win it.

Persia's population plus our population is 71%. So, 29% of the world's population is still conquerable, theoretically. The only problem? It will take us most of those 30 turns just getting to most of the AI. Scythia, for example, still has a nice little civilization, but the game would be over before we could conquer them. So, that segment of the population is essentially off the table for us (although it remains on the table for Persia).

We could finish the Celts off, but it would require a naval invasion of two islands in order to gain a dozen or so cities, almost all of which are under size 6.

Where is the population? Egypt! Just look at those cities! They're huge! Realistically, though, it would take almost as much time to get to Egypt as it would take to get to Scythia. But, I think the payoff would be better.

We have 15 turns of peace left with Egypt. I'm not sure how long it would take to prepare an invasion. Did we only take the world map for peace with them? If so, I have absolutely no qualms about violating that peace treaty if it gives us the chance to win the game.

Even with Egypt, it feels like a long shot. But, I don't see that we have another option. We've been gaining strength, but I fear it hasn't been fast enough.

I'd like to know what others think. Should I go to war with Egypt, if I can get the logistics together? Are there other solutions? At this point, I don't think we're past looking for likely ways to win the game. We need to focus on strategies that give us a glimmer of hope.

We won't have time to change directions again. Maybe everyone should take a peek at the save, and we should decide as a group, before moving on?

-Griselda
 
On our strategy: I agree that Egypt offers the only hope to make large population gains. When I made peace, it was only a WM swap, nothing else changed hands. I have no problems with breaking that deal. It wouldn't surprise me if they came in on an MA against us soon, but we shouldn't wait for that. The Celts have one more significant city on the mainland, and you are set up to take that on your 1st or 2nd turn. You have 4 armies that can attack on your first turn. I'd guess capture that city (it's their capital), and the capital should move to England. Then see if they will give you the rest of the European cities for peace. You might need to also capture Neme... before peace, then we should be able to get the others in the peace treaty. I think I could have gotten 3 cities for peace around my 8th turn, but I can't remember total pop of those cities.

On transporting troops, I think we have a 1-turn crossing at Gibraltar now. We'll still have to move the Legions from the boot, but we could get our armies across fairly soon. I doubt we would be in a position to attack on your turn, but we could get set up well.

At least on high levels, I think this scenario is easier as Macedon or Persia than as Rome, simply due to the lower probability of a run-away AI. I think we could have won fairly easily if Macedon and Persia had fought to a stalemate, although it still would have been tight for population. The other advantage Macedon and Persia have is that they never have to prosecute an amphibious assault. We kicked Carthage around pretty good, and it still took ~85 turns to finish our blood enemy. I'll have to look to see how quickly the Macedon and Persian teams vanquished their opposition.

It almost makes me wonder whether the best strategy would have been to not be concerned with African Carthage, to just conquer Spanish Carthage, and then go to town on the barbarian tribes. Then late in the game return to African Carthage with loads of Heavy Cavs and Legion III's. Do a lot of conquering/settling early, and only hit Carthage's homeland to put Rome over the top. Not a criticism of anything we've done, it all seemed perfectly logical at the time, and the runaway AI took away our other late-game option of making a short-distance invasion of Macedon.
 
> It almost makes me wonder whether the best strategy would
> have been to not be concerned with African Carthage, to just
> conquer Spanish Carthage, and then go to town on the
> barbarian tribes.

We had exactly the same thoughts about our game as Carthage, that we should have ignored Rome for the most part and instead should have gone after the barbarian tribes, especially Egypt in our game. Maybe it's a consolation for you that we made the same "mistake" - although playing this scenario basically ignoring your blood enemy would have been rather silly.

I also guess that the Macedon-Persian war will nearly always end with Persia on top (assuming both are AIs, of course); reading all four games lets me come to the conclusion that Persia is overpowered in this scenario.

Anyway, what's done is done, so I wish you good luck for your last 30 turns! Maybe a miracle will happen, we hope so at least for our last 40 turns. ;)

-Kylearan
 
We certainly need no miracle to win this game.
It will be close but we still have a chance.

First, we have nearly reached the point of 20% land so this will be no problem.
I hope we already maxed our cities for growth (irrigation, ducts) wherever possible)

Second, we should take all available cities in the north - northeast region (Celtic AND Goths, if Persia leaves some for us, I know they are small but the troops are in place)

Third, we have to take out Egypt (I suggested this before)
If we concentrate our main force down there, we can dig into Persia as well during the last turns if we are just short of 50% pop.

And I suggest to produce (and/or rush) Heavy Cav. instead of more legions, with
only 30 turns remaining the reinforcements have to be quick-moving units.
We have only 24 Heavy Cavs, I hoped we would have something like 50 by this time but our casulaties seem to be higher than expected.


One thing that I would do different for sure if I played this scenario again:
Taking out the Celts and maybe even the goths (and thus securing the north for growth, allowing all further military operations to be concentrated south) is a priority.
We agreed as a team to focus on Carthage, so nobody can be blamed about this but it turned out that 130 turns are just not enough to let 30-40% of our troops sitting idle on the northern front, waiting for Hanni's end.

An additional possibilty was mentioned by T_McC: staying away from northern Africa for the first half of the game.
This would have allowed us an invasion of Greece after their initial hoplite-force was consumed against the Persians.
We would have gotten big cities near our homelands AND we would have denyed them to the Persians.
Just some thoughts......
 
I was preparing to play this conquest through SP as the Romans, and re-read some of the opening discussion, when I came across this uncanny premonition from Griselda's first set of turns:

BT - Persians want territory map for territory map, that's OK. They have so much land. Right now, we want to get stronger, but at some point, we may need to think about how to stop them from running away with this.

It just jumped out at me, considering the current situation.

BTW, I still think you have a shot, so definitely go for it!
 
Granted, I have not looked at this game since I played last, but I have another thought. How big are the cities in the old Macedon core? They are closer to us than Egypt and it would be easier to ferry troops here. Any gains would equal loss of Persian pop. This may be a pipe dream if the Persian Parade is still passing Silk Town. If so, here's hoping Cleo is ready for the afterlife :hammer:

6gntxn
 
Hey, guys, I still haven't played my turns here, and I'm really sorry. Part of it was lack of time, and part of it was my own frustration with this game, I must admit. I haven't gotten to that point with a game before, so it took me a little while to even figure out what was going on.

Luckily, I've just played some very enjoyable pointy-stick turns in RBC1, and that's making this seem like fun also.

'The end will not be long,' said the king. 'But I will not end here, taken like an old badger in a trap...When dawn comes, I will bid men sound Helm's horn, and I will ride forth. Will you ride with me then, son of Arathorn? Maybe we shall cleave a road, or make such an end as will be worth a song- if any be left to sing of us hereafter.'

I was hoping to finish up RBC1 this afternoon, and play this tonight, but that didn't happen. I can play Sunday night for sure, but might not finish until Monday some time.

If anybody is really "feeling it" and wants to jump ahead, please say so. If not, we WILL be moving along Sunday or Monday.

-Griselda
 
Take all the time you need, some quick turns don't help us in our situation, we really need good turns now
 
(0) 150 AD - First step, go around and micromanage cities, emphasizing food. I rush projects in cities that look like good prospects for growth. That's an infirmary in Ancona, aqueduct in Icosium and Confinuim, market in Carthago and Marsala, and a colosseum in Messana. I go around and change the build orders. Anything that wouldn't be done in 30 turns, unless I think we can realistically rush it, is changed. In general, Spain (and any 1spt city) builds garrisons, except for a few cities that build citizens (we can settle those little islands easily). The core is swapped from legionaries to heavy cavalry, so that they have some chance of arriving on the front. I'm not too worried about temples on the front, since we're interested in growth more than land area. In general, we wouldn't be able to rush a temple and an aqueduct in border cities anyway, so we might as well get a garrison or two out of them.

Next, I check on shipping. Our galley in Massila is sent SW to pick up island citizens. I send a few of our island galleys south, but do leave a route with two galleys at Pisae/Pompeii, and a single galley to run between Olbia/Aleria. Sicily looks like our best route to Africa and Egypt. With our current boats, we can send four units (or one full army) per turn to Sicily. It's six turns round trip between Syracuse and the dropoff point just east of Leptis Magna, so we'll want six galleys on the Syracuse route to maintain that 4 units/turn rate of shipping. I set Croton to build us galleys for Syracuse. I also set up a small ferry in the west- via Lauriacum and Tingis.

I check with our foreign advisor, who suggests that we trade luxuries wth Egypt. He is fired, and beheaded. I momentarily forget that galleys can carry 4 units in this scenario, and since I want to make a heavy cav army with the leader, I send the leader back corewards without putting any units in him. Actually, I also forgot to make an army out of him, because "leader" had become so synonimous with "army" in my mind. I catch both oversights before he gets on the boat, though, and I do take the time to promote vets while the leader is around.

BT - Carthago market - colosseum. Marsala market - colosseum. Anconium infirmary - cav. Icosium 'duct - garrison. Croton galley - galley. Messana colosseum - infirmary. Aquilea market - colosseum. Confinium 'duct - cav. Also misc units built, but I won't list all of those.

(1) 155 AD - I really take note of the huge number of Celtic galleys off our central coast. They are currently in an area that has *zero* military units! Even if they unload a bunch of regular archers, they coult potentially wipe out several cities before help arrives. I send cavs west out of Hippo Regius, and legions forth out of Agrippina. They can help defend the zone until there's at least something guarding the coastal cities.

There's a gallic and an archer at Avaricum. I bombard them, and kill with our army. That means the army is not available to march on Hallstadt this turn, but a lot of units look like they'd benefit from a turn of healing anyway. There's quite a few units on our backlines that look like they could be moved north towards the battle, so I send them north. I'm guessing they were fortified into cities when those cities were on the front lines, so I'm just trying to keep up with where the actual front is.

(2) 160 AD - Several units move towards us out of the Celtic capitol. We kill four. Two new cities are founded - Cumae (in the gap in western Europe_ and Caesaraugusta (western Africa). I rush an aqueduct at Pompeii, colosseum at Olbia, and a galley at Tingis. There's pollution in our core, but no workers for miles. I'll see if I can get some back that way.

BT - Padua harbor - cav. Olbia colosseum - infirmary. Tingis galley - garrison. Pompeii 'duct - galley. Saldae rax - spear.

(3) 165 AD - I make an army with the leader, and park him in the southern core where he can pick up incoming cavs without accidentally loading other units. I capture the Celtic capitol, defeating many spears. The Celtic capitol moves to England, which will be good for us. We're at 18/33, and Persia is at 20/39. We march on Nemetocenna with a few legions and many cats.

BT - The Persians destroy the Goths. Instantly, their stream of horses starts heading back the other direction past Palmyra. Numidians start moving towards their new cities. Persia and Egypt make peace. Confinium harbor - cav. Hippo citizen - garrison.

(4) 170 AD - Take Nemetocenna, which only had two spears. Found New Aquileia by Palmyra (where the Persians are moving all their units). We're now at 18/34 vs. the Persians' 20/40. We capture Agedincum and some workers, and we go to 19/34. I rush a temple at ferry dock, and infirmary at Messana.

BT - Messana infirmary - garrison. Ferry Dock temple - aqueduct.

(5) 175 AD - Pick off some Celtic archers. March on New Alesia. I rush a citizen to fill the Celtic lands. I found New Genua by the goody hut, pop it with a cav, and there's angry warriors. Luckily I had shielded everything with the cavs, so the barbs can't hurt us. Two galleys depart Syracuse for Egypt, hooray! Rush a colosseum in Marsala.

I note that some of the Persian numidians have moved away from the main stream, and are headed NW through our lands. I'm pretty sure that they're headed for New Decetia. One note- it looks like they have giant stacks of defenders in every single city, yikes.

BT - Marsala colosseum - infirmary. Tarentum colosseum - harbor. Canusium temple - cav. Viroconium rax - garrison. Jerusalem rax - garrison.

(6) 180 AD - We found New Confinium on one of those little islands. We start a warrior. Capture New Alesia. We found New Segusio in our east, and New Medialanum in Africa. Rush two more citizens to fill those islands. We stay at 19/34, but Persia goes to 20/39. Rush an aqueduct at Ferry Dock.

BT - Ferry Dock 'duct - garrison. Hippo citizen - garrison. Nico citizen - garrison.

(7) 185 AD - Capture Gloskowie. Found New Beneventum by the island wines. We go to 20/34. Rush several citizens. We have gathered a bunch of units by Egypt, and I position the stack just outside of the Egyptian borders to attack next turn.

BT - Tarentum harbor - cav.

(8) 190 AD - Found New Luna in a Celtic gap, and New Arminium past Silk City. Declare war on Egypt. We capture two workers that were actually in our borders, and then Mendes. Rush an infirmary in Marsala.

BT - Marsala infirmary - temple. Carmona citizen - garrison. Croton galley - galley.

(9) 195 AD - Capture Matisco and New Novioudumum, the last two Celtic cites on the mainland. We're still at 20/34. Build New Veii. Capture Oryx (Egyptian), and we're at 21/34. There's an Egyptian galley south of Syracuse. We sink it with an empty galley of ours, but lose one galley in the process. Still, if it was full, it was worth it. I lose one cav attacking misc. units in Egypt.

I hope this wasn't :smoke: , but I make a peace treaty with the Celts for some cities (meaning, a binding peace treaty). We just don't have the infrastructure to take it to their islands anyway. I accept New Nemetocenna, New Agedincum, and New Atuatuca and 50 gold for peace, for a total of 7 pop ponts. Unfortunately, New Atuatuca looks like it's been whipped, and is very unhappy. That takes us to 21/35. Atuatuca needs a spear rushed this turn for MP, but the others can wait a turn. Atua will starve, and I can't prevent it.

BT - We get a "20 turns left" popup, and there's a counter on the screen.

(10) 200 AD - Build New Antium in the Celtic gaps. Attack Thebes with a lone cav, win, but there's a spear left. I'd attacked on the off chance that the new city had only one defender. Capture Kahun. We unload an island settler. We attack an Egyptian sword, and pop a leader. I send the leader to Oryx, for the next leader to use. We attack a Numidian in the open, and lose a cav.

Our stats at the end of my turn are 21% land, 35% pop. Persia is at 20% land, and 39% pop.

I'm trying to build a road to Oryx with the captured workers, because Oryx is a straight road towards the Egyptian core. However, there's a lot of pop in dyes city and around the coast, although it's a longer march. I don't know what would be better, but we should be able to go either direction (and maybe both) from this position.

As far as the other workers go, I've mostly been building roads to facilitate movement. At some point (maybe when we get to about 10 turns left), we probably want to go for a mass worker merge. Who knows, maybe we have 15% of the world's population in workers. :crazyeye: . If I recall correctly, the game's measuring straight pop points, regardless of the city's size. So, we don't really need to worry about what size cities we merge them into, although they probably should be merged into cities that could sustain the population.

We can also still gain population by founding cities. Any city that could grow to size two by the end would be a net gain for us, especially if the citizens are built in non-growing cities that can regrow after the citizen. It won't be long before the cities won't be able to grow by the end, and I guess at that point we just need to make sure that all the citizens settle down somewhere.

The galley exposed by Ferry Dock is headed for Syracuse. Remember to keep a boat in Ferry Dock and Messana every turn. The Syracuse north/south route should be pretty obvious. We just lost a galley, so I think we need at least one or two more. Remember there's also a route in Lauiacum and Tingis if that would be helpful. There's some fortified units healing in the former Celtic lands. They can be woken and sent south.

I'm sure there's a bunch of other little tidbits that I should mention, but I can't remember anything. I guess the important thing is that the next leaders are willing to take their time and focus, even if it means we need to veto everything I did here (ack, I do hope not). I'm not going to worry about 24/48, especially this week, but do drop a note if you're up and can't play or will need a few extra days.

Charis has requested that none of the RBC3 games use the beta patch. That seems like it makes sense, considering how close to the end we are. We might as well complete all the RBC3 games in the same version.

Good luck, everyone! I'll be rooting for you! :hammer:

-Griselda

The Save

Griselda - Done
6thGenTexan - UP
Belisar - on deck
Speaker
T_McC
 
I've got it. I'll not get a good long look at it until Friday. I am scared that Persia is up tp 39% of the worlds population. I my not see the end of my 10 turns. I think the first order of business is to merge as many workers as possible. This will increase our population as well as the total population. Hopefully the total pop increase will slow Persia's % growth buying us some more time to make gains in Egypt.

6gntxn
 
The good news is, Persia really didn't grow during my turns. It was at 40% at one point, but was down to 39% by the end. I would guess that's from population added as we settled cities.

The bad news is, I suspect they didn't grow because they were moving their cavs towards Scythia. Once they arrive, and start making gains there, they'll likely start growing again.

Merging workers is a good idea, though, as long as it doesn't cripple our capacity to move units to Egypt.

-Griselda
 
I see now that Persia was at 20/40 in 170AD but 20/39 in 180AD. I guess the world pop increased enough IBT to deny them the victory condition.
 
I decided to sit down and play a turn or two to see how the game is going.





Well, its going........




First time I hit End Turn

Persian_War.JPG
 
:saiyan:

I'd been watching their troop movements during my turns, but I didn't notice any "sneak attack" movements. :saiyan:

Good luck, Texan. With any luck, they're in a type of government that allows poprushing, although without war weariness in any of them I suppose that's highly unlikely.

-Griselda
 
I've played 2 more turns and it looks like their primary concern was to wipe out our roadblock towns on their highway. I will continue to hit Egypt but I will not get any more reinforcments there. The armies in the north will hit the Persians on their way south. Taking these Persians cities may help our score overall.
 
Huh, this one is interesting, good luck 6thGen
 
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