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RBCiv Conquests SG Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Charis, Nov 11, 2003.

  1. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

    Dec 20, 2001
    Midwest, USA
    Prelude to the Age of Discovery
    It's time to say goodbye to Rome (Rising, Falling, and Holy) and open ourselves
    up to a brave new world! In other words, the C3C Age of Discovery Scenario.

    Scenario Info

    It's the year 1490 AD. New powers are beginning to emerge on the Iberian penninsula.
    What lands and riches will be uncovered in this Age of Discovery?!

    A modified tech tree is used including a variety of naval units, plantations and
    some elements of the Reformation. Victory is by VP Scoring (35,000) or culture win
    (4K in one city, or 20K whole civ). There are eight different country choices,
    5 in Europe and 3 in America. It also uses the "Capture the Princess" mechanism, where
    the princess is treature from the New World which must be returned back home for 1000 VP.
    The time limit is 150 game turns, so that means 3-5 player turns each!

    France (King Francis) - Comm/Indus - 6 city (633332) +1 settler- UU Musketeer 3.5.1 (60, amph)
    7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 4 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 explorer, 3 workers.
    Spain (Queen Isabella) - Rel/Sea - 6 cities (644321)+ 1settler- UU Conquistador 3.2.2 ATAR (70,
    7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 4 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 Conquistador, 3 workers. amphib)
    Dutch (King William) - Agri/Sea - 3 cities (974) + 1settler - UU Swiss Merc 3.4.1 (50)
    7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 4 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 explorerer, 3 workers.
    Portugal (Prince Henry) - Rel/Sea - 6 cities (853111) +1settler - No UU, but start in GA
    7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 3 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 explorere, 1 worker.
    Portugal has a unique advantage - on turn 1 they start with Dias' voyage which kicks
    off their Golden Age, gives +1 ship move, and one colonist per 8 turns.
    England (Queen Eliz) - Comm/Sea - 5 cities (84332) +1set- UU Elizabethan Sea Dog 4.3.8 (30,
    7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 4 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 explorere, 3 workers. enslave, blitz)

    America: (Note, these *can* use sacrificed workers for culture, with UU or with QB's)
    Aztecs (Chief Montezuma) - Agri/Mil - 1 city (3) +1set - UU Jagged Warrior 1.1.2 (10, enslave)
    4 jaggies, 1 worker (plus the settler). Capital is pretty decked out! 21 culture/turn
    Incans (SI Atahualpa) - Agri/Ind- 1 city(3)+1set - UU Chasqui Scout 1.1.1 ATAR (30, enslave)
    4 Chasqui, 1 worker (plus the settler)
    Mayans (GI Smoke Jaguar) - Agri/Indus - 1 city(3)+1set - UU Javelin Thrower 2.2.1 (30, enslave)
    4 jaggies, 1 worker (plus the settler).
    Starts: Mayans have jungle, Aztecs mtns, Incans combo hill,mtn,jungle, far SE of other two.

    * This scenario only, Caravels *can* cross the ocean!
    * Musketmen (3.4.1) and musketeers (3.5.1) have amphibious assault!
    * Pikes don't need iron. Man-O-War avail to all civs.
    * Missionaries (3.1.2, 30) are invis, see invis, can enslave spears, warriors & American UU's
    * Colonists are like settlers but pop 1, 20 shields, available with Printing Press
    * Queztal Bowman (3.1.1), any native civ, can enslave
    * In Europe, Spain and Portugal prefer Catholicism, England/Dutch Protestant, French both.
    * The other civ, non-playable, is the Iroquiois with Mounted Warriors
    * Magellan's isn't +move, it's like a production dock and spits out one frigate per 5 turns
    * Two key govts. Europe all starts in Catholic Monarchy. Protestant Monarchy will
    reduce corruption and increase worker efficiency, but increase war weariness.
    Each allows a different special building (Cath:Jesuit college, a normal bldg with
    +50% sci and produces missionaries, Prot:Luther's 95 theses great wonder+2 happy continent)
    * Min-sci rate is 75 turns, not very effective.
    * There are 3 New World Great Wonders, Temple of Kukulcan (+3happy,Leo's), the Moon (ToE),
    and the Sun (BattlefieldMed+Suffrage)
    * The Mayans start next to Aztecs and have 2.2.1 units. They could wipe out the Aztecs
    within the first player turn, but would have a slowed tech pace and far less enslaved
    workers and hence culture.

    Feedback from other Players
    - We've gotten several novel ideas and feedback points from players.
    - Gobi Bear (designer of the scenario!) had some interesting suggestions for
    adding historically appropriate variant conditions for a few of the games.
    See his post above for more info, but in summary...
    _ England : ASAP revolt to Protestant Monarchy; eliminate French on their soil; piracy emphasis
    _ Netherlands: Declares war on Spain which is to last for 80 turns
    _ Spain: Must conquer (eliminate) three of the four american civs
    _ Portugal: Settles only Brazil and Africa - and goes to war with any who dare go there
    _ France: Civ-wide cultural win (!) and also an extended war with Spain

    Romethemonk had difficulty going for a European cultural win, mostly due to VP limitations.
    Quite likely only a low difficulty setting would have a real chance for culture win.
    "A real challenge would then be to get a Euro cultural victory of any kind on Emporer+ level."
    "Of the MesoAmerican civs, the Mayans are by far the most difficult."
    "I think that Aztecs on Demi-god would be a good challenging SG, and Maya on Emporer [too]"
    "All of these could be knocked down a level for civwide victory conditions."

    And to T-Hawk's expected question of which civ to try Sid with, Gobi's answer was Portugal :p

    Discussion Items
    - Any further comments (not spoilers) from those who've played this scenario before?
    Do the American civs *have* to sacrifice to win? How fast/slow does this scenario run?
    - I see no games reported playing AoD, but several folks have mentioned it's probably the
    second easiest civ after Mesopotamia (then again, they're trying Monarch level)


    - With turn limit of 150 and a guess that on the lvls we'll play the AI will VP win around
    turn 100 (??), the American civs would have about 2000-3000 culture, not enough for
    a victory. At 40 culture per sac-altar worker-slave, about 25-50 would help make it up.
    - For *most* games, unless there is a thematic reason to do so, I have the impression that
    wars in Europe would make things too easy for the player, and we may want to limit this.
    - No palace jumping. Moving it to the new world removes all sense of challenge.
    - My own take on AoD... I definitely like one game on Sid, a tough game going for a Euro
    culture win, a non-sacrifice culture win in the New World (*if* this is remotely possible),
    A high difficulty Mayan game, one game much easier than the others to target newer players,
    and inclusion of at least a couple of the historically themed games. That would make for
    an initial thought of: Portugal Sid, Mayan Deity, France Emperor Cultural goal
    (perhaps plus the historical Spain war), Demigod English historical theme, DG Spanish
    historical New World conquest, a Netherland game of some kind - possibly Open,
    a variant Iroquois (modded) game, a Monarchy Incans game, and an Open SG with Aztecs.
    That's just my initial thought, but the game list will be decided by player signups!
    EDIT - In fact, Arathorn, just posted a nice list. After reading that, I would modify
    the list here as: non-sacrifice city-culture Incans (Mayan domination would be nice, but it's not enabled).

    With a very reasonable 8 (9?!) choices and some key distinctions between civs in the same
    area, we would do well to fully cover the scenario, with 8 teams of 4-5 players each.
    Players may sign up for two, but not more unless a team ends up short. We may well run
    one of each as OPEN unless the signups are very full. Actually, someone mentioned the idea
    of modding the conquest to play as the Iroquois, so I hope he or someone else chimes in
    with more information or a plan for doing a Iroquois game. We'll try to have a good mix
    of difficulty and approach, including one Sid, one OCC, and one European conquest.

    For sign-ups, please indicate whether you have a preference for Europe/American flavor,
    and/or a specific civ, as well as a difficulty *range*. If you have a preference in your
    sign up for a game with/without a Gobi-esque historical flavor, mention that too!

    As it turns out, the RBC13 series has recently ended, so we're good to go very soon!

    Feedback, questions, and sign-ups are welcome! Let the Age of Discovery begin!

    EDIT - Wow, strong initial response! I'm glad to see you guys are well rested and ready to roll! :p
    Version we'll be using will be 1.15 unless there's compelling reason to switch.
  2. Aggie

    Aggie Deity

    Jan 11, 2002
    Amsterdam, Netherlands
    I'm interested in two 'difficult' or 'brutal' games. One with an European civ and one with an American civ. If possible :)
  3. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

    Feb 14, 2002
    Hoboken NJ / NYC
    I'll captain up the Sid team, of course. :D Portugal sounds good as per Gobi Bear's suggestion. Not sure if I want a second game, I'll see what happens.

    Feel free to run more than one game with a civ if there's enough interest. 14 different civs got filled up for the Middle Ages, so 8 here will probably go pretty quick...

    We're running patch 1.15 still for all of these?
  4. Sir Bugsy

    Sir Bugsy Civ.D.

    Jun 20, 2003
    I would like a piracy game and a Meso-American game.
  5. Rubberjello

    Rubberjello Emperor

    May 6, 2003
    So. Calif.
    They all sound good to me! Sign me up anywhere. (just 1 though please)
  6. Jabah

    Jabah Emperor

    Mar 12, 2001
    Paris, France
    Any game, with high difficulty level but 'normal' (or almost) restrictions, which might mean Portugal or Aztecs if taking Arathorn's list.


    1. I am not sure Arathorn means OCC with the Mayans, but only 1 city culture victory.
    2. for 'historical' purpose, if you want a European civ having treasure VP coming only from piracy, it really should NOT be spanish, they were the victims (at least on sea), not the hunters. England is probably more realistic for that.
  7. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

    Aug 15, 2001
    Manly Mayans -- Regeant -- Goal is domination win
    I would suggest you check the game - I don't think domination is a victory condition!

    If it is, then what percent is needed?


    Do the American civs *have* to sacrifice to win?
    I think the starting buildings put you close to 3000 culture by game end. The question is there enough time to build some killing wonders to culture?
  8. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

    Dec 20, 2001
    Midwest, USA
    Thanks Lee! You're right, domination is not an enabled victory condition. Nor is conquest. ONLY Cultural and VP wins are enabled (unless an Iroquois game which has to be a mod anyway adds new victory conditions, but I couldn't hazard even a rough guess as to an appropriate percent even then)

  9. Caesar_Augustus

    Caesar_Augustus in vino veritas

    Mar 10, 2002
    We're the Idiosyncratic Iroquois! We don't play for Cultural or VP victories like all of those other civs! We have our own unique path to victory!

    I had mentioned the Iroquois mod to Charis a few weeks ago. Basically what this mod will entail is:

    *Iroquois as a playable civ

    *Domination as an added victory condition. The exact % is yet to be determined - I have to run some tests to find out what a good % would be.

    *Conquest as an added victory condition. I don't see this happening, but leaving the option open for the team could be fun. Who knows, depending on how the game goes we might be able to research caravels and sail some Mounted Warriors to attack Europe :eek:

    *Changes to Victory point scoring. We all saw what happened in RBC13 games that had conquest and domination as victory goals - the VP scoring made them impossible to accomplish. After a quick look through the editor, I may change Conquest VPs from 100 to 25, Unit VP from 5 to 2, and Special Unit VPs (treasures) from 2000 to 4000 (so that the Iroquois will have to assault and defend plantation sites.)

    *Cultural Victory would be left on, but wouldn't be a goal for the Iroquois team. Our goal is to :hammer: the Europeans and Americas!

    *Maybe change turns from 150 to something higher? This would depend on what is decided for a final domination %

    *In a PM, Charis had mentioned giving the Mounted Warrior enslave, so that cultural victory could be a nice fallback option. However, there are scores of barb camps in North America, so I think this would give the Iro an unfair advantage.

    *Perhaps play this as an Always War variant with Domination as a goal? Maybe allow peace until the first European city is settled in North America - and then the Iroquois go on the warpath for the rest of the game! Could be interesting, although settling cities on the coast would be a no-no with all of the amphibious units in this game . . .

    *Difficulty level is open, though I'd like it to be Emperor+

    Well, there's enough to discuss for the moment. I'll run some tests in the editor to see how much land would be a good domination %. There's a lot of sea to factor in.

    EDIT: Alright, ran a quick test. Settling all of NA gives about 25% land. All of NA, Central America, and the Caribbean gives us 33% land. All of NA, Central America, Caribbean, and SA gives us 61% land. Note that this doesn't factor in sea tiles brought in by border expansion, since I was too lazy to increase the culture of each city. It also does not factor in 20 tiles of the Amazon that I couldn't bring into cultural control (can't found cities on jungle/marsh/forest/tundra).

    What does everyone think? I think settling all of SA would make for a boring, long game, so how does 30-35% sound for land?
  10. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

    Jan 10, 2002
    Whoops! My bad on the domination. Conquest is always a victory condition, though, so it's still possible.

    Possible alternative for Mayans, then....
    Masochistic Mayans -- emperor (demi-god?)
    Win by culture in single city. That city may have no culture-producing buildings ever built in it (unless there's a building that doubles culture/sacrifice -- I don't remember...then limited to just that one). [E.g. Sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice to get the needed culture.]

    I had originally planned on proposing England as the "pirate civ" (as I think a pirate civ is a really cool idea and I would like to see it played out -- and England seemed natural). I changed my mind for one reason. As I read the Civilopedia, the English UU Sea Dog replaces the privateer. However, the privateer has hidden nationality and the Sea Dog does not. In my mind, piracy has that element of "not at war" about it, and it simply would not be possible to do this as the English. They have Sea Dogs...they don't get privateers (again, as I read the Civilopedia), so there's no real chance to attack without war. Just explaining my rationale....

    I had not envisioned an OCC for the Incans, simply victory by the culture of one city. It might well work, though. The Incans have good starting lands and a fair chunk of culture/turn already. They seemed to me to have the best chance of the non-sacrificing single city win. Whatever Charis thinks is best, of course.... Adding the settler back in right away would certainly help with getting a couple of the nice American wonders...)

    I hadn't thought about open. That's a good idea, too, of course. More ideas than civs... Probably good. I would caution against too many games, though. I think a lot of us got a bit burned out by the Middle Ages games, so a bit fewer commitments might be wise.

    I'm up for pretty much any ONE game. I'd probably rather avoid the easier ones (England and Aztecs from my list) and would put a weak first choice on Portugal, but I'm up for nearly anything. Put me wherever you need me (captaining, too, if you need/want...not a big deal either way).

  11. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

    Aug 15, 2001
    I might sign up for one, but I want to see the revised list removing the domination idea.
  12. DeceasedHorse

    DeceasedHorse Prince

    Nov 25, 2003
    O.C. in the Summer,WU in the winter
    Sign me up for Corrado's Crazy Iro game, as well as the piracy game (whichever civ that ends up being), if there is enough space.
  13. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

    Dec 14, 2001
    Peoria, IL, USA
    Wow, a lot of activity since this morning! That’s what I get for going to work! ;)

    I’d definitely like to take a crack at the Cultural French. Difficulty of Emperor is fine, DG would be tempting, but I’m afraid that would just mean more AI units killing each other and racking up VPs. I can already see the need for some Piracy of our own, just to keep the AI from getting treasure back home for VPs. There would also be some motivation for colonizing the New World, as that’s the only place to get more cities, for cheap (well, rushed) culture, as well as pulling in luxuries.

    Which leads me to my next point. I agree with some restrictions on European warfare. Passive (i.e. no attacking cities) on the continent would probably be right, and probably no pillaging inside their borders, as otherwise a pillaging army can knock them back into the Middle Ages. ;) But any cities in the New World should be fair game, kind of a Cold War situation. I would make a few exceptions for historical reasons, definitely the English ought to be able to conquer the French cities in the British Isles (which represent the rebellious Scots, IIRC), and maybe an exemption for the Dutch to go against Spain. Without seeing the map, I don’t know if there are any other anomalous situations that would apply. I would think that you could fight to retake cities you lost (either due to war or flip).

    I’ll just stick with one game for now, unless I see some other teams come up short, although the Iroquois variant also sounds pretty intriguing…
  14. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

    Jan 10, 2002
    Hmmm...Justus raises some good/interesting points/questions.

    I would argue that re-capturing of cities be allowed (not normal in passive rules) in Europe, that pillaging be allowed even inside enemy territory in Europe (serves 'em right!), and that anything goes in the new world. As for historical exemptions...not my cup of tea. It's hard enough for some of us to remember the difference between Europe and America and rulesets, let alone different rules for different parts of Europe. But to each his own!

  15. Gobi Bear

    Gobi Bear BreakAway Games

    Oct 19, 2003
    I'm in.

    I'll probably sign up for a game with historically-based variant victory conditions, if one like that is set up.
  16. Caesar_Augustus

    Caesar_Augustus in vino veritas

    Mar 10, 2002
    Actually this isn't true. If conquest is disabled, you can eliminate all of the other civs but the game will continue until you've satisfied one of the other victory conditions.

    I tested this at the same time as I tested the domination limit for the Iroquois game. I changed things around until each AI only had one undefended city, and the Iroquois had a stack of longbows next to each one. After eliminating them all, I allowed 5 turns to pass and the game didn't end. So I retired, and replay verified that none of the AI had respawned anywhere.

    First time I've ever seen ALL of the civs beat up!
  17. romeothemonk

    romeothemonk Order of the Engineer

    Feb 26, 2004
    Rapid City, South Dakota
    Put me down for a cultural team, either French or American, depedning on where the need is greater.
  18. Speaker

    Speaker Deity

    Nov 4, 2002
    Section 1
    Sign me up for Sid with T-Hawk.
  19. Bede

    Bede Deity

    Oct 24, 2003
    Cape Cod
    Demigod English historical theme, please. And a MesoAMerican if slot is available.
  20. Yom

    Yom Re-ese Mekwanint

    Aug 29, 2002
    Sign me up for DG or Deity please. No strong preference as to country.

    Edit: I will be busy until the 7th/8th though, so whoever starts the game, put me low on the roster and skip me if I'm up before then.

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