rbd23 - b

[Sirian]

LK: all your SG's that I've seen are played on large maps. This is a small map, and on a small map you only get one ring of useful cities around your capital. Beyond that, it's corrupt, and also getting to be too many total cities, too. While the idea of an FP on another land mass holds appeal for "long term perfection", if we are going for an early conquest win, a second core early REALLY helps. (See RBD2).

The FP in Leipzig, at this point, might be our best bet, depending on what lies beyond. This, presuming we get a leader.


- Sirian

 

[LKendter]

Sirian, Good point -

My brain was in standard / large mode.

Of course, we will have to see how big our land mass is, then optimize it for here. If we get a leader - I just hope we have enough elites left.





Sirian << on deck
Sulla
lkendter
Arizona_Steve
lonestar <<< UP NOW

 

[Sullla]

Lonestar? Are you out there? It's your turn you know

Normally I would wait longer to post a head's up, but lonestar hasn't yet posted anything on this thread. We're waiting for you to join our glorious team here!

 

[lonestar]

Hi guys, sorry about being Scarce, just got back from holiday Ok got it now, will play and post within a few hours. Read all the posts, good work. a nice start from a ****e position.

 

[lonestar]

Could remember if i was playing 10 or 20 turns, so i played 15 it was at a decision point aswell so i thought i'd leave it

 

[LKendter]

lonestar -
Can we get some type of report?

What happenned during your turns.

 

[lonestar]

Preturn:
moved the two spears on the iron colony towards the germany front. Changed osaka to a settler

1) 510BC: steveville produces a sword, starts on a galley. The germans would soon be crushed by the our glorious armies, time to reach out and find a new victim.
Destroyed Liepzig, 1 gp gained. No casualties

2) 490BC: Hamberg sighted, defened by a spear, german archer close by.

3) 470BC: our spear fortifies outside liepzig, don't fancy odds of attacking liepzig with 1 sword and a archer. Decided to dig in and may the germans sweat it for a while we waited for re-enforcements. moved works up to build a road throught the forests to the german lands.

4) 450BC: germany moves a archer along side our troops. moved sword back out of german controled lands to re-group. decided to not risk getting counter attcked after killing the archer so leave him be for now.

5) 430BC: osaka pops out a settler to settler conquered garman lands. osaka starts production on a temple. elite sword attcked the german archer as it moves closer to our border. sword looses 4 hp, but finally kills it, phew! Troop still moving to the front.

6) 410BC: kyoto produces a sword, changed to a galley. Should have 2 galley in 5 turns.

7) 390BC: Galley flying a brown banner spotted on the north seas! hum, ar, some bird called cautious Kath ! shes only two tech ahead, both of which the germans are going to give to us
the russians haven't meet anyone else yet, hopefully german will be crushed before their galley makes it there. she onlt has 7 cities so we aren't doing to bad.

8) 370BC: re-enforcements finally arrive at hamberg, the assault begins. 1 division of swords die a honourable death in combat, 3 german spears are destroyed, our elite archers are given the glory of the final blow but no one distingushes themselves
The city of hamberg is razed to avenge the loss of the 5 sword army, Some of the populance are spared and enlisted into building a road back to the home land. Anyway, always thought hamberg was a cr@p name.


9) 350BC: Berlin spotted to the north, munich to the east. However the german have secrets we need so we decide to make "peace" to obtain their knowledge. Otto is very happy to speak to us, and decided to give us munich has stash of 27gp, all three techs. Troops begin to re-group and advance on berlin,


10) 330BC: kyoto has grown, so a galley pops out a turn early. It is sent west to explore. Kyoto starts on a sword.

11) 310BC: steveville constructs a galley, changed to a temple. Galley is given orders to explore the south seas. A sword is hanging around kyoto, so it board the galley which continues to explore to the west. Ar ha, the land to the west has two different tribes on it, both dark skined people. They call themselves the aztecs and the zulu, and they are very advanes people. We can only contact the aztecs, but we have a sword on the galley so next season we should send it on a diplomatic mission. The aztecs haven't meet the russian yet! What happened to the russian galley, must have sunk A single entertainer in munich is fired and a scientist is hired. Next turn we will make a stack to cash!

12) 290BC: We discover Lit !, change the science rate back and begin studing polytheism, in 9 turns. Disembark the sword and contact the zulus. Time to become advanced !
Trade contact to russian and 5gp for philosophy + code of laws to the aztecs.
trade zulus contact to russians and 4gp for maths, poly was too expensive, i'll make a plan for that later.
I reackon next turn the aztecs will trade russian alot of tects for russian gold and maps, so i'll beat them too it.
Trade russians their wm for our wm + 30gp. Amazed they haven't meet the aztecs yet, o well, our gain hey!
Russian is dead north, cold land!
Trade russian 83gp for 4 techs, russian has 7 gp to trade to the aztecs next turn,
trade wm to aztecs 4 poly
trade wm to zulus for wm +27gp
We start on learning the secrets of monarchy.
The aztecs and zulus have peachy lands, cows and all. The aztecs only have 4 cities, what have they been doing
Troops still moving to berlin.

13) 270BC: plod

14) 250BC: Attack berlin, sorry Otto, but you know what they say: un-lucky ! No one has contact with germany so hopefully no one will every know Berlin dies and germany is no more! Abit behind plan, maybe should have build horses instead of swords, o well think we got away with it. We have two more slaves.

15) 230BC: The people of japan rejoice the destruction of germany and expand the palace. Swapped wm with aztecs.

Well thats it, thought id's stop here, i guess the next up should take the war to the aztecs. Good land, 4 large cities, 1 brand new one. They have a bunch of cash so i would get a alliance with the zulus first cause if we don't they will and attack the aztecs from the north. We have 3 galleys and a few swords, so we need to build the army first. I have alot of temples under construction, our science output sucks. Tried to improve out infrastructure, most cities are roaded or will be soon, founded a city near hamberg's old location, can't remember when, their is another settler on the way to settle north old germany. We have spices now, so we are quite happy. We are the most advanced nation ( with the aztecs and the zulus, russians ars a little behind ) no sign of the persians ?, should try to find them first and make so cach out of it. Maybe use the galley to explore while we build the army.

 

[lonestar]

Heres the world at the mo, aztecs look weak with only 4 cities to speak of.

 

[lonestar]

sorry about the wait lkendter, was trying to watch rugby and type at the same time.

 

[Sirian]

Your efforts sound productive, and I'm glad you were victorious over Germany and building ships and such, but we have a problem:

A good rule of thumb is: "what would happen if a country did this in real life?"

If the answer is that it would be hated by everyone in the known world, then you probably shouldn't do it.

Lonestar, you seem well aware that betraying our word to Otto would be viewed as slimy by the rest of the civs, so I wonder what happened here.

While I admit that the rules for this thing were fairly ambiguous in places, scattered a bit and incomplete at times, this statement above, by smegged, in the original RBD23 thread, offered a clear enough picture of the spirit tying all the rules together.

Offering phony peace for free techs then turning right around and attacking again definitely violates the rules.

This is a serious matter, RBD gamers put stock in the rules we choose to play by. If this event and its rules had been more organized, this would be a disqualification matter. However, in this case, even I had to read back through and piece things together to figure out whether or not this was within the scope of the rules, so a misunderstanding is... understandable. It seems reasonable enough to me just to undo the illegal move for now, if Lonestar is willing, and leave the final decision up to the other teams as to how to view our results.

Lonestar, if you have a save from 270BC (or 250, before you broke the treaty) please load from there and replay the last two turns, this time WITHOUT attacking Germany. We must honor that peace treaty for its full 20 turn duration or our team will be disqualified.


- Sirian

 

[LKendter]

I would like an official position from Smegged.

I didn't realize this one either,
however - I would say lonestar should have the option to NOT sign the peace treaty - I would not within these constraints.
Only problem, how long ago was that?

Oh well, I learned my lesson - competitions games need the rules in the first post of the GAME START.

I am not sure how valid the competition is now.

 

[Charis]

A sticky wicket....

I've been an observer in all 3 games and was wondering if/when this would happen. I'll make no comments at all on how other games are going but WILL say you've played turns faster and are the first to come to this issue - no comment on the years involved, just the 'game velocity'.

- The rules I'm afraid are unclear. It gives what looks to be a solid list, and could be taken as comprehensive
- The rule DID specifically say there was a 'reg' in each game to veto or help make sense of the rules in grey areas

It gets worse when Sulla made this post:
"We should definitely make sure to get all their techs for peace, then finish them off at our leisure (20 turns, or fewer if we decide to be terrible breakers of our word)"

and did NOT get refuted at that point. So I take it that lonestar wasn't breaking a known rule, but that through lack of our own clarify, made a choice not at all in the spirit of the rules. I too am guilty of sometimes writing rules only a clairvoyant could understand

The team plan did seem (?) to be get techs as tribute then finish them off in 20, honorably.

Recommendation:
Go back and redo the last few turns if the autosave is available.
Since knowing this is a rule might well have affected his decision to make peace, this should be with the option of not making peace. (AFAIK the 'autosave' bug is fixed an no longer an issue)

I can try to convey this rule *at the right time* in the other threads to avoid giving info. Or if it's chosen here to let stand, I'll make that option known as viable in the other games.

Don't take everything as broken yet. From the outsiders view, this is going *very* well and it would be a shame to hang it up, OR to feel dirty. It's no shock the game start conditions and Otto were totally out of the blue, for *all* involved. Continue to keep away from the other threads and you will enjoy the comparisons later.


Charis

 

[Sirian]

LK: I agree that going back before the peace was offered would also be a workable "undoing" of the move. However, that was in 350BC, five more turns earlier, and I'd rather keep the replayed portion to a minimum.

Charis serves as an impartial commentator here, though, and his opinion is that the option to go all the way back and undo the peace treaty should also be available, so I will go along with that.

We'll leave that decision up to lonestar. He can go back and undo the peace treaty, which was halfway through his turn, or go back merely to undo the betrayal, which was right at the end of his go. I'm not even sure which is better, strategically, since leaving Germany to hang around for another 15 turns -- even if they make contact with somebody and our rep takes a hit over it -- may still be worth the techs.


My apologies for the rules ambiguities and disorganization. I'm sure our next "Parallel" SG will have its act together a little better.

Lonestar? What say you? (And do you have the saves needed?)


- Sirian


EDIT: one more note to LK. Since smegged is playing on one of the other teams, it would be disruptive and possibly disastrous to involve him. I suggest you let Charis serve as "official word" from RBD organization. That meet with your OK?

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by Sirian
EDIT: one more note to LK. Since smegged is playing on one of the other teams, it would be disruptive and possibly disastrous to involve him. I suggest you let Charis serve as "official word" from RBD organization. That meet with your OK?

I agree with you.
I wanted a party from OUTSIDE of the game - Charis qualifies as that.

 

[Sullla]

I'm sorry if anything I may have said earlier caused confusion in this matter. My thought was that we would reduce the Germans to one city, then sign a peace for all their techs and finish the job 20 turns later. I only mentioned violating the treaty (note I said "terrible breakers of our word") because I didn't read anything in the original RBD23 thread specifically against it.

I would suggest keeping the original peace treaty, and replaying from a turn before it would violated. That would seem to be a reasonable compromise. Of course if lonestar doesn't have the saves it's a moot point. I also don't think this constitutes such an enormous change in the game (Germans were finished anyway) as to justify disqualifying ourselves if there is no previous save to return to.

In any case, I think that the group has the message now about honoring treaties!

 

[lonestar]

ar, yes now that you mention it, sorry, the holiday must have fried my head, clean forgot!
Thought the best thing to do would be to re-play as little as possible. went back to just before attacking germany, and didn't, hemmed him in instead.
Tried to do the same as before.
Just like to Apologise to the whole team for potentialy getting us disqualified. It was a honest mistake, oops! hope they can over look this litltle slip up.

 

[Sirian]

OK, that should right the ship. I also realized, on looking back over the rules, that none of us followed the proscribed turn limits either, starting with me. I'll even out the numbers and we'll go to RBD-Standard ten-turns-per-player from there.

Be back in a bit.

- Sirian

 

[lonestar]

not wanting to start any farther discusion on this point for fear of feeling even more like the village idiot, in my defence no one else had contact with the germans and would therefore have to be told of the back stabing by us, and being a despotic nation, control of / fudging of historic facts would be very feasable. But this kind of logic is far too imprecise for a competition like this, and is therefore not really worth it, so i accept the repremand.

 

[Charis]

Things look firmly righted, good job all!

Let there be no more beating of selves, just a solid...

... beating of Otto!

(When the time comes )

Charis

 

[Sirian]

IT 230BC: We've devoted everything we had to beating down the Otto-man (haha, beating on a piece of furniture? ) but that kind of push isn't going to hold up with Persia not even on our map yet. We're going to need some improved infrastructure to be able to crank the kind of production output needed to take even one more opponent, much less all of them.

The old "I urge you to think long term" deal.

So I swap our core cities to granary, and look to see where I can crack the whip to good effect. I'm really QUITE pleased with how well developed our lands are, despite our warmongering. I suppose that is partly due to captured workers, partly due to the worker I built in Osaka way way back on the initial turn, and partly due to how little land we have!

I dropped science to zero. We can get Monarchy in 23 turns pushing max science (and running a gold deficit, as I am about to increase our maintenance costs big time with more infra) or we can let poor overwhipped hopeless Munich sit on a scientist while we rake in max taxes... and get the tech in 37 turns. Also, this being monarchy, we can just buy techs from the AI's at late prices, and keep right on researching monarchy at 1 beaker per turn for 37 more turns, EVEN IF we are dragged into the middle ages. So... that's where I take us, no science budget.


210BC: Aztecs have a settler, unescorted, in range of our sword unit that just landed on their continent. I'm tempted to attack, and I dial up Monty and tell him so. "We want tribute."

Of course, I didn't put it in THOSE terms. Nope, no threats. Just, "Our treaty has expired. What's it worth to you to renew it. Oh? 80 gold? Impressive. You chose wisely." New deal signed, good for 20 turns. Aztec settlers stop trembling in terror. I am so pleased with Monty's action, I establish an embassy, and he then happily pays me 106 gold for Right of Passage. Wow, what a cooperative little fellow. I'd be of a mind to keep him around a little while, as we turn our attention to, ah, "other targets". I wonder which civ is going to "ask for our attention" first.

I also established embassies with Russia and Zululand. Zulu's are starting the Great Library at this point, and Moscow is about 1/4 done with the Pyramids. Unless a great leader hops along, we won't get any of these. There is still the Colossus out there, though, and that WOULD BE really really nice to have in our capital, with no rivers around. I go ahead and spend 37 gold (we are now rollin in cash anyway) to investigate Kiev, to see how close the Russians are to finishing the Colossus there. EEP! It's due next turn! Not my luckiest timing for an investigation ever, but at least I know it's hopeless to start that wonder in Kyoto. (Hopeless doesn't do our chances justice. Heh!)

Oh, our ship up north barely survived attack by that barb ship that was next to it when I inherited the game. What's worse, our ship down south is also attacked, and it barely survived, too! They both need to make port.

Shaka paid us 52 gold cash for 20 turns of RoP. Cathy was too broke to afford the honor of being allowed to travel our lands.

190BC: Our swordsmen on the Aztec continent clear out the barb camp, "earning" 25 gold. The Aztecs move a spear to escort their vulnerable settlers. (Apparently they thought it wise not to tempt us too much, dangling potential slave labor in front of our forces.)

Nara founded in desert south of Kyoto.

170BC: Russia lands a settler and regular spear on the Aztec continent, right next to our swordsman! The Aztecs turn around and head home.

Berlin borders expand, and by treaty we are required to stay off German lands, so I back our units away one tile.

I dial up Cathy and ask her what her settler is worth. She says all she has is 11 gold. I say, but the Aztecs paid 80. Are you tellin me that your people are worth that much less than theirs? She huffs and puffs and says I'm bluffing. I demonstrate that, in fact, I am not. Our swordsmen butcher the Russian spearmen, then round up the settlers and put them in chains. "Ready to dig some roads, fellas? Our ships will come to take you to Japan."

WE ARE AT WAR WITH RUSSIA.

150BC: I notice that all our core cities have one lone defender. I shuffle troops in the east to send at least one sword home, in case Russia can mount some sort of invasion.

Our ship unit up north has been repaired, I send it back out, intending to pick up the new Russian slaves and transfer our sword unit to Tbilisi Isle to attack the Russians there.

Some whippings take place, now and over the next several turns.

* Tokyo granary whipped.
* Steveville Courthouse WWW (2 pop used).
* Son of Frankfurt harbor whipped.
* Edo harbor whipped.
* Satsuma courthouse partial whip (to 60, then back onto production).

Our ship down south was repaired at Nara. I sent it out with the spearman from Steveville to pop the goody huts in the south.

(cont)...