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RBP7 - Defiant Nationalists of China

RBP7one.JPG


Wang the Wussy, don’t you know better than to pick on a defiant nationalist civ? :hammer:

(15) 1600 – Shanghai: settler->spear. After much pondering, Tsingtao is settled such that incense is within its immediate borders, but without any two-food squares. I did this so that we wouldn’t have to expand its borders to use the luxury. With a build order of walls, then worker, we’ll have two-food tiles there(irrigated plains) soon enough.

(16) 1575 – Canton: worker->worker. Osmon gives us 59gp for our WM, further reducing the cost of our past trades.

(17) 1550 – Babs and Korea are allied against the Mongols. Ottos and Babs make peace. Beijing: spear->settler. Germany completed the Pyramids. Xinjian founded on the iron NW of Shanghai (to reduce the incentive for the AI to settle up there) and begins building a galley. Babs kick in another 19gp towards the “big deal,” bringing the final cost to 83gp for three techs and the WM. Additionally, I have been trading our map to the other civs for ~5gp each turn.

(18) 1525 – The barb camp NE of Shanghai is spitting out horses at a rapid clip. We need to train some of our own to deal with the threat, to assist us in the war that will likely come in the near future, and to serve as future upgrades for riders. Half the civs have Philosophy now.

(19) 1500 - :sleep:

(20) 1475 – Shanghai: spear->horse.

Notes: Nanking needs irrigation and there is a worker free to move up there. There is still movement left on the archer next to the barbs and on the two spears in Shanghai. I am inclined to move the archer north and circle around the camp, rather than killing the camp and then sitting next to the horse. A spear from Shanghai might need to be parked on our dyes. All of the diplo and micromanaging should be taken care of already. We should be able to expand east and north before the trespassers start trudging through. I tried to keep our borders as streamlined as possible. As I noted in the report, the city placement I chose was based on our variant rules and not how I would ordinarily play. If I mucked it up by being too conservative, I apologize.
 
Hey Reagan, nice job! While it's always lucky in a sense to get a settler from a hut, you went through great effort to make it possible, where more casual hut-popping wouldn't have allowed one.

Quite an interesting Pangaea too (btw, this is well beyond my quick-check turns so I had no idea how it would shape up). Imagine if we were just a bit South, in the "crossroads of the planet". If we can *quickly backfill* with settlers, and keep settler-pair traffic out of there, we will have not only a very defendible position, but really a no-traffic shape to the empire, which is ideal.

I like the shape of the empre so far, although our southern city does jut out a bit. Not that we have 11 spare troops, but that's all it would take to form a "wall" preventing all access from the west and greatly reducing chances of a tresspassing war.

The two main 'path choices' ahead of us are:
- Strong military and infrastructure build up. This will reduce our chance of getting threatened and would allow us to win our first war. We would then take by force any cities in our "subcontinent", with Riders if not earlier.
- Brief but intense settler push. Fill in the whole subcontinent just as fast as we possibly can. This will reduce our chance of getting involved in a "get out! -- no!" war, but leaves us in jeopardy if a war did come about or if we got threatened.
Like any farmer's gambit, *if* it worked without war, the go-go REX of the second approach would be superior from a growth perspective. But under our variant rules, this would be a significant risk.

I wouldn't be opposed to going either way, although since we have about 9 'spots' to fill to claim the subcontinent, I'm thinking we can't do that fast enough without getting into a war, so I lean toward a middle approach, building up some military while keeping those two cities on settlers. OTOH, who is going to fill those slots? Orange guys have more land still in their own territory, and with the wars already going on, and the distance involved, no other civs should be getting settlers there any time soon.

Cartouche Bee
Reagan
ToddMarshall <-- UP (10 turns here and after)
Meldor <-- On Deck
Ridgelake
Charis

Good luck,
Charis
 
OK, I got it, but I doubit I play tonite. I'm too upset at what is going on over in my other SG to even open up a save file right now. Any save file. :(. Having said this,I'll calm down in a few min and play anyway most likely.

As a side note, I tested the OBC idea on Emperor to make sure that wasn't a near impossible challenge, and it isnt, thoug I've decided Dieity is out of the question for it. No way you could keep up in the modern age. I saw a couple interesting things, such as barbs runniung arround in the modern age being taken out by AI mechs :lol:, and I got to see an AI raze more cities than any human, as the Americans deftly avoided domination by razing about 20+ cities of 3 diffrent opponents in the early to mid industrial age in a chain of wars, and never resettled any of the sites.
 
I'm not going to get to this tonite. somone wana draw up a dotmap idea?
 
I'm too tired to play this till in the morning. I didn't get any sleep last night and I don't want a lot of weed infecting our game this early on. This gives plenty of time for those expansion phase wizards (of which I am NOT a member) to get a dot map drawn up. (HINT HINT)
 
ok, ok, so I don't do well with 'subtle' :P

Here's one possible dotmap, although it certainly shouldn't be taken as written in stone, or even mud for that matter. Feedback from others or disagreements are welcome. I'm 'after-On-Deck' so I'll be having to found some of these.

This map shows nine new cities, which are a combination of getting good and productive spots, snagging resources, and trying to fill up our subcontinent and have a decent front line.
In rough order of importance, they go green (top), yellow, red (lowest). To some extent these are subject to risk tolerance. A more cautious approach would be to found purely top to bottom to reduce risk of tresspassing wars.

RBP7-DEFN-Dotmap-1475bc.jpg


More specifically, the first two green ones represent two solid first ring spots, each of which snags a resource or lux. Letting anyone settle here in first ring would virtually demand a war later. Spot 3 is also a decently productive city, but is there primarily to safeguard the dyes. Four and five are for 'staking our claim', drawing a line in the sand. A more aggressive approach would settle these first, and go to war if anyone settled past them. But that flip side to that is that these cities would be too far from core to defend well, and without the back filled, literally invite trespassing. Six, seven, eight are mainly to fill in the gaps and to provide extra cities for income and perhaps workers. Six is also a nice 'buffer' spot. I'm not so sure about nine - it makes our territory 'jut out' more than I like, but it's a river spot on a hill - it would be the front line 'magnet' that I would expect an AI to attack in case of war, so with walls and a rax it gives us "time" if a quick/surprise war breaks out. If we don't build 9, we can build, literally...

the Great Wall of China! Canton to Spot 6 to Tsintao to Spot 5 to the ocean. Really... fortifications manned by defenders. I love this from a RPG point of view, and it would absolutely eliminate trespassing-based wars. It would only take about 20 units.

In fact I see this line forming the natural border / line of manifest destiny for our nation. I doubt Charishek will rest if there is a foreign city founded inside our subcontinent as defined by this line.

So there's two cents to start to work with, use as you see fit.
Charis
 
Thanks for taking the time to put the map together, Charis. I have just two quick thoughts. These are coming from a fatigued mind, so take 'em with a grain of salt:

- I agree with you that 9 likely juts out too far. I dropped Tsingtao where it is because that's where the settler popped and there was a new lux there. Going beyond that is inviting trouble.

- It's highly unlikely that we'll get sites 5 and/or 6 if we prioritize them in that order. Perhaps we should change to 6, 1, 2, 5, 4, 3, 7, 8. If we stick with the original plan and happen to lose 5 and/or 6, nothing says we can't do the ol' raze and replace! :hammer:
 
OK. I like it. :) . I should be founding 1,2,3 at least on my turn. I'm not sure about 4 though because im not sure we can get all these spots in time, 4,5,9 would be lowest priority to me because of boarder concerns. I just woke up so if i shake some rust off i should be able to play in a bit.
 
Lurker comment :
I agree with Reagan in that I find spot 6 a real nice one, it is first ring and in time will become a huge powerhouse with all those hills. IMHO 6 and 4 should definitely be settled before 3.
I would go 6,4, 1,2.
Definitely love the human Wall of China idea !
 
The more I look at it the more I like an early 6 too. It just seemed that the region around six would be considered too close to other cities for the AI to settle. *If* so, we can settle there at our leisure and still have a nice site.

Looking at the map from the AI point of view though, either they will decide 6 is a good spot, OR see the gap between 4 and 6? That would surely be open until we had both cities down, and that would really mess up our borders. So much so that I wonder if laying down 4 and 6 along with 1 would be the best three cities to do first, then hitting 2. (Which is Skyfish's suggestion)

Either plan might do ok depending on the circumstances -- just keep in mind the question "What if we get one or two AI who declare war on us next turn?"

Charis
 
Well I think going for 1 and 2 gets the dyes off the open market.

6 [Edit: and 4] makes a logical front with current cities.

3,7,8 takes the back side off the market, in case there are other resources up there.

That leaves 9 and 5 for last. 5 scares me a bit with the mountains so close to the city but a logical position for the city and a good push forward.

Swapping 7,8 and 5,9 would be fine, however the game goes.
 
After looking at this again and considering others' comments, I suggest we go with 6, 4, 1, 2, 3, <whatever's open>.

Grabbing the 6 and 4 spots will still allow us to create our Great Wall if we want to, while forcing the AI to march northward to fill in the other spots, which are right next to our settler-producing cities (i.e., we should beat 'em to the spots even if we wait). That final point is, of course, a significant drawback because it will likely invite at least one war at some point.
 
Don't forget, if we find the spots were they want to cross in our territory we can always set up mini-me mobile Great Walls until we get the complete wall up or until we get everything settled and are strong enough to take it to them.
 
Actually, I think 6, 1, 4, 2, 3, 8, 7 should be the order.

Six to set the western front (and perhaps coal). 1 to capture the dyes and reduce the chance of a border-crosser. Then 4 to fill out our borders. Then backfill.

If we go 4 before 1, then we invite people to cross until 1 is settled. If they go after 4 before we can get there, we can still backfill 2, 3, etc before turning our attention on capturing 4. But my guess is that 5 and 9 will get filled first by the AI, particularly if all of the dyes are under wraps.

Overall, I thought the dotmap looked good. I toyed with tweaking a few cities, but didnt come up with anything substantially better. The one city that I would suggest moving is 8 either east or NE, depending on the layout of that peninsula. Doing so would reduce overlap and open up the hill. This town will need shields more than food.

Ridge
 
OK, I really am going to play now :p. Sorry for the delay. I'll have it up by tonite. Thanks to everyone for being patient :).
 
Ok, here is the deal. No I haven't finished yet and here is why. I noticed after a few turns we had a Babalonian worker. Yes, we have a Babalonian worker....... How did we get a Babalonian worker? It says we cant buy them. We haven't been at war with them. Someone had to buy it. I looked through both sets of turns and no one says they bought one anywhere, but we do have one nonetheless. I want clarification about what to do about this before I play.
 
An illegal immigrant in our midst?!?!

That's an easy fix -- deport him. Send him back home. If his country can afford the cost of his flight they should do so, if not he goes back for free, at our taxpayer's expense.

:p
Charis
 
Babs are broke. I might be able to broker him for tech. Shoulkd i let him finish his mine first?
 
Interturn
Ummm, I dont hae an interturn? Please leave me an interturn next time :( Actually, I probably do. It's not clear. I have an archer to use, but i also have a worker with no movement not doing anything....... I'll just go one less or whatever to make the years come out right.

Diplomcy check shows an active deal with Korea for us giving out gold. No other deals.
Tech Check reveals Babalon, Germany, Mongols at Parity, Rest up Philosophy.

We are min science running Poly, due in 20. Looks dubious we'll get it first the rate things are progressing with only that, Curency, Construction, and the Government techs left. Either way, its a good deal. at least we won't have to buy it.

My first thought when I looked at the map was, OMG NO HORSES OR IRON AGAIN?? Tursn out we are built on them so yea!

I'm also at a loss as to why we haven't irrigated that wheat by shanghai. Barb troubles?? (probably)

As for the galley in Xinjan, I must admit I am lost. Are we planing to go exploring somewhere? It is a pangea map and we have full contact. why do we want this? If there is a reason we wanted it, then I screwed up because I'm not building it. Xinjan Swaps to Rax so we have somewhere to build cheap vet units. I swap Nanking to warrior so we have a unit for MP or to do settler escorting in the near future. We do want a Rax there, but right now we are unit deficient. I swap tsingtao to warrior because i have a specific plan for that warrior.

Shanghai is buiulding a settler, which we DO need, but with Rampant barbs we need an archer first, so we swap to that.

Most of the tile arrangment looks good except at shanghai, which could get the settler at the same rate byt grow 1 turn faster by working that wheat. It will cost a meer 2 coins to grow faster, so I jump at it. Also, Bejing missed a micro opportunity but its ok, we'll fixor that up a bit too.

Man, we need some SERIOUS worker production, but nowhere looks really good for that. Speaking of workers..... we have a Babalonian worker....... uh oh. OK, here is the deal. He's going to finisht that mine, then discount philosophy for us by getting sold back to Babalon

[1] Vet archer fortifies to heal. Both barb Horsies ride off zzzzzz

[2] Bejing Settler -> Settler (cant make warriors anymore :() Originally I wanted to grab #1 with him, but after thinking about it, it is definately not safe to send him out unescorted over there, but it should be safe to grab #6 unescorted, swap tsingtao to warrior to send thre quick, and make walls in both cities thereafter.
Vet archer takes out the Barb Camp
Babs have a worker available. Really wanted to buy him then remembered I couldn't..... (it was actually later i noticed that the one we had was Bab, so I had to go back and replay all this so grrrrrr at somone heh)
Korea has workers too :(

BT Vikes start Lighthouse

[3] Archer redlines, but takes out a barb horsie.

IT - Spain declares war on Mongolia.

[4] zzzzzzz. Boring micro managment in progress.

[5] Shanghai Archer -> Settler
Nanking warrior -> Worker Warrior heads to the capital to MP there to free up a spear for escort duity
Babalonina scum worker finishes his last project and heads to the capital.
Warrior over in Babalon pops the hut there and gets nothing. Contiued MMing of the capital for all its worth.
Settler arrives at #6

IT - Spain and everyone with philosophy grab lit. Spain starts the library.

[6] Tsingtao Warrior -> Walls
Though the Settler has arrived at #6 , he waits for the warrior to arrive to found it so we don't have an open city leading to extortion.

IT - Ottos start the Library

[7] Canton Worker -> Rax
Foreign nationa sits in capital awaiting brokerage. If no opportunity arives by the end of my turn, he goes away for nothing.


[8] Bejing Settler -> Settler
Xinjan Barracks -> Horsie
Settler/Spear from Bejing head for #1
Warrior reaches 6dot settler, Chengdu founded on #6
Babs and Germans finally have Lit. Spanish and Koreans Currency, and the #%#&% Mongols have Poly *sigh*
Hmmm might as well 2fer before the whole planet has Lit.
160g to Korea for Lit
Lit and his worker to Babalon for Philosophy and WM.

Not great deals, but 2 techs for 160g isnt terrible either. Babs are broke, and Mongols don't have but 14 coins. Not worth trading it to them, even though they'll pick it up when the broker Poly anyhow..... Maybe we can get more in a turn or 2. Both civs with Currency are at war with them.
Note there was no way to 2fer the other direction by trading first with Babalon so the worker has gone back

IT - Barb horsie attacks our archer that has almost reached the camp. the archer redlines but wins. Annother horsie sows up to threaten our settler pair :(

[9] ZZZZZZZ

IT - Korea signs The Vikes and the Ottos to Alliance vs Mongolia. I'd say mongolia is toast

[10] Shanghai Settler -> Spear
Settler pair heads for #2

My plan for the next settler would be to send him to #4, then we can backfill.

I'm worried about Tsingtao being so far out. So far Spain and Babalon have been respecting its boarders, but who knows how long that will last. If they declare war, that city is pretty much toast. I'm fairly worried about our lack of military too, but with so many of the cities being size 1, not too sure what we can do about it unless we quit making any more settlers for a while, which is a problem too, because then they will walk right into our land trying to reach the back areas.

GL on your 10 meldor.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP7-1250BC.sav
 
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